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cbayer

(146,218 posts)
Fri Jan 16, 2015, 05:35 PM Jan 2015

Pope Francis Is Wrong About 'Charlie Hebdo.' We Have a Right to Make Fun of Religion.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/120785/pope-francis-charlie-hebdo-remarks-miss-our-right-offend-religion

JANUARY 16, 2015

By Jerry A. Coyne


Photo: Lisa Maree Williams/Getty Images

The Charlie Hebdo massacre in Paris was a watershed moment in the war on terrorism in two ways. First, it’s almost impossible to pin the murders on anything but blind adherence to religious faith. The murderers, like many Muslims, believed that making fun of or even depicting their prophet Muhammad is a capital offense. Why else would the terrorists target Charlie Hebdo instead of, say, French government offices? The religious motivation directly contradicts the many apologists who blame Islamic terrorism on the West as a reaction by the oppressed to colonialism. What has changed with this tragedy is people’s willingness to recognize that religion really does make people do terrible things.

We are experiencing a historic clash between two tenets of liberalism: multiculturalism and Enlightenment. Absorbing immigrants can enrich a society in many ways, but not if those immigrants demand a public deference to their religion that conflicts with democratic values.

I’m referring in particular to free speech: the right to criticize or make fun of anything so long as you’re not directly inciting violence. For exercising that right, 10 members of the Charlie Hebdo staff were exterminated. Not all Muslims, of course, riot or kill when Muhammad is defamed or depicted, but the view is sufficiently common that the West has finally woken up to what it means for democracy.

One would think that Catholicism, a largely Western institution, would share the solidarity among enlightened people prompted by what happened in Paris. Wrong. Pope Francis, the voice of the Vatican, has pronounced that free speech should be limited: that while satire and mockery can’t justify murder, they shouldn’t go too far—by which the Pope means that criticizing religion should be off limits.

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Pope Francis Is Wrong About 'Charlie Hebdo.' We Have a Right to Make Fun of Religion. (Original Post) cbayer Jan 2015 OP
I like him,, U I'm not sure about juxtaposed Jan 2015 #1
...and "U" are? Cooley Hurd Jan 2015 #2
Who is "U"? Me? cbayer Jan 2015 #3
I think that "U" is tweenspeak for "you". I blame the public school system. NYC_SKP Jan 2015 #38
I just wasn't sure who she was pointing that "u" at, me or the author of the article. cbayer Jan 2015 #40
Like most Muslim posts,,,,,,, You post has nothing to do with it juxtaposed Jan 2015 #4
Muslim posts? Has nothing to do with what? cbayer Jan 2015 #6
Now you're simply not making sense... Cooley Hurd Jan 2015 #7
I'm prejudiced in favor of photographers, okasha Jan 2015 #41
Yep. First they can't be questioned, next they can't be disobeyed arcane1 Jan 2015 #5
Agree with you OnePercentDem Jan 2015 #27
He has been taken entirely out of context by a Western media intent on quashing this communist. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #8
How do you interpret it? cbayer Jan 2015 #9
I think he was being metaphorical, not literal, and he was attacking vulgarity for the sake of Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #12
I think his message was that people shouldn't do it cbayer Jan 2015 #15
Of course, the simplest explanation is always a global conspiracy. n/t trotsky Jan 2015 #29
He never said we didn't have a "right". He said those doing it could expect consequences. whathehell Jan 2015 #10
Consequences including being murdered? cbayer Jan 2015 #13
Just to warn you: trotsky Jan 2015 #17
He didn't say it was a just consequence, whathehell Jan 2015 #18
He said that faith should not be mocked, didn't he? cbayer Jan 2015 #20
No, he didn't. whathehell Jan 2015 #26
I think your statement is generally true and that people cbayer Jan 2015 #28
Since he is the Pope "faith" is kind of his thing. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #30
Yes it is, and I would object if any group said that different limits cbayer Jan 2015 #33
Yes, whathehell Jan 2015 #34
I like him and I am willing to stipulate that he may be cbayer Jan 2015 #35
He's being taken out of context.. whathehell Jan 2015 #37
"Consequences" to someone not liking what I say should be something like... trotsky Jan 2015 #31
No kidding.. whathehell Jan 2015 #36
I found some of the "Charlie" cartoons repulsive... Mike Nelson Jan 2015 #11
jerry coyne's track record on religion is itself as laughable as it is predictable. rug Jan 2015 #14
What is your take on what the pope has said? cbayer Jan 2015 #16
I'm in NYC typing on a damn phone so I don't know all of what he said. rug Jan 2015 #19
I don't think he is in anyway showing support or sympathy for the shootings, but cbayer Jan 2015 #22
I'll have to read the whole thing when I an use a kb instead of a finger. rug Jan 2015 #23
Hope you are having fun in NYC. cbayer Jan 2015 #24
Thanks. Made a quick detour to Sunnyside for White Castle. rug Jan 2015 #25
Get thee to Katz's on East Houston while it's still there. NYC_SKP Jan 2015 #39
It is a great place, even without orgasms. rug Jan 2015 #42
I walked by it all the time, never went in. NYC_SKP Jan 2015 #43
The worse thing that happened to the city was Disney. rug Jan 2015 #44
I moved there when it was still NYC, and I left as Disney moved in. NYC_SKP Jan 2015 #45
I think it is still quite wonderful. cbayer Jan 2015 #46
The spin, by the media, is indeed ludicrous. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #32
Christians, Mormans and Jews have been made fun of (here) for years demosincebirth Jan 2015 #21
 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
38. I think that "U" is tweenspeak for "you". I blame the public school system.
Mon Jan 19, 2015, 05:23 PM
Jan 2015

I am not following this story that closely, but I really like this Pope and I like what he's had to say about the matter of respectful discourse.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
40. I just wasn't sure who she was pointing that "u" at, me or the author of the article.
Mon Jan 19, 2015, 05:28 PM
Jan 2015

I have to disagree with Francis on this. I think justifying violence as a response is wrong and I think his applying this to "faith" is wrong.

I like him, but he is an old man from a latin country who sometimes speak like an old many from a latin country. He loses me big time on some of his statements.

We just moved to a beautiful and fairly isolated harbor today. We had heard that there was an open wi-fi source, but that may have been only temporary. Oh, well. More money from me into the Carlos Slim's pocket (he own Telcel and pretty much every cel tower in Mexico).

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
6. Muslim posts? Has nothing to do with what?
Fri Jan 16, 2015, 05:47 PM
Jan 2015

I'm having a really hard time trying to sort out what you are trying to say here.

okasha

(11,573 posts)
41. I'm prejudiced in favor of photographers,
Mon Jan 19, 2015, 05:31 PM
Jan 2015

especially nature photographers, but I haven't the faintest idea what you're trying to communicate here.

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
8. He has been taken entirely out of context by a Western media intent on quashing this communist.
Fri Jan 16, 2015, 05:48 PM
Jan 2015

His disrespect of capitalism is irritating them no end, attacking him at every opportunity is imperative.

Attack him, attack him, attack him! Surely there is something he believes in that a large amount of folks vehemently do not agree with that can be used to attack him and take him down a papal peg or two?

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
9. How do you interpret it?
Fri Jan 16, 2015, 05:52 PM
Jan 2015

I do agree that his antagonism towards capitalism is threatening, but I'm not sure how else to interpret what he said here.

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
12. I think he was being metaphorical, not literal, and he was attacking vulgarity for the sake of
Fri Jan 16, 2015, 05:58 PM
Jan 2015

vulgarity and insult for the sake of insult.

Satire does not need insult and vulgarity and pornography directed against an entire major religion.

But I can't ask him, so that is my opinion only.

I have never met Muhammad or Jesus, so when I see an image of a brown man in a turban clutching a sign on a cartoon magazine cover I do not immediately assume it is an image of Muhammad any more than if I saw an image of Rush Limbaugh wearing a fedora I would think it an image of
Jesus.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
15. I think his message was that people shouldn't do it
Fri Jan 16, 2015, 06:05 PM
Jan 2015

and if they do, they will get what they deserve.

And he seems to make it exclusive to religion and not other things that might upset people. That makes it particularly difficult to stomach.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
17. Just to warn you:
Fri Jan 16, 2015, 06:09 PM
Jan 2015

You're agreeing with me on this. Tread very very carefully because I am an evil atheist bigot, or so some who have embraced that meme think.

whathehell

(29,034 posts)
18. He didn't say it was a just consequence,
Fri Jan 16, 2015, 06:14 PM
Jan 2015

but in the case of the Paris murders, it was obviously a real one.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
20. He said that faith should not be mocked, didn't he?
Fri Jan 16, 2015, 06:16 PM
Jan 2015

I think that is saying that religious beliefs have a special privilege that I am not willing to grant them.

whathehell

(29,034 posts)
26. No, he didn't.
Fri Jan 16, 2015, 06:36 PM
Jan 2015

"Grant" or don't "grant", who cares?

The point is, if you INSULT people you are likely to make them ANGRY

and angry people tend to hit back, SOME hitting back much HARDER

than others, as recent events have shown.




cbayer

(146,218 posts)
28. I think your statement is generally true and that people
Fri Jan 16, 2015, 06:46 PM
Jan 2015

should be aware of what might happen if they provoke others, but my issue here is that he seems to have made it exclusive to "faith", saying it should not be mocked.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
33. Yes it is, and I would object if any group said that different limits
Fri Jan 16, 2015, 07:02 PM
Jan 2015

should be applied specifically for their group.

If he wanted to make a statement about civility and the risks inherent in mocking others, that would be one thing. That is something I would teach my kids.

whathehell

(29,034 posts)
34. Yes,
Fri Jan 16, 2015, 07:12 PM
Jan 2015

that sort of common sense would seem wise.

I don't think the pope is saying that faith shouldn't be mocked, at least

by law, although being the head of a major religion, I doubt that he's crazy

about the idea, which seems quite normal.

He's saying what should be obvious, and that is that many are

SENSITIVE about their religion, and identify with it, so when you INSULT

it, you insult them, and given human nature, you can expect consequences

which will vary in severity depending on the people insulted.


cbayer

(146,218 posts)
35. I like him and I am willing to stipulate that he may be
Fri Jan 16, 2015, 07:17 PM
Jan 2015

taken out of context here.

The example of his traveling companion insulting his mother resulting in a punch in the face would seem to mean that he meant it more broadly.

Making the case for sensitivity is one thing, while making the case for censorship is another, particularly if one is making the case for censoring only certain things.

whathehell

(29,034 posts)
37. He's being taken out of context..
Fri Jan 16, 2015, 07:33 PM
Jan 2015

and he's certainly not making the case for censorship, he's making the case for
common sense.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
31. "Consequences" to someone not liking what I say should be something like...
Fri Jan 16, 2015, 06:57 PM
Jan 2015

disagreeing, and stating one's point of view.

Not murdering me.

Why is it reasonable to expect those kind of consequences when criticizing or mocking someone's faith? Why on earth should we consider it as "normal" as popping someone in the mouth for insulting one's mother?

whathehell

(29,034 posts)
36. No kidding..
Fri Jan 16, 2015, 07:31 PM
Jan 2015

Neither he or anyone on this board or anyone who accepts western democratic

values believes anyone should be murdered for their speech.

Nor do I believe he or ANYONE on this board thinks it's "reasonable" to expect MURDER

as a consequence, but when you're dealing with ISIS or Al Queda we're not necessarily

dealing with people who "reason" as we do, are we?.



Mike Nelson

(9,944 posts)
11. I found some of the "Charlie" cartoons repulsive...
Fri Jan 16, 2015, 05:57 PM
Jan 2015

...but I wouldn't prohibit the free press from publishing them.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
19. I'm in NYC typing on a damn phone so I don't know all of what he said.
Fri Jan 16, 2015, 06:15 PM
Jan 2015

I believe he said that if the monsignor standing next to him insulted his mother he should not be surprised if he's slapped. I agree with that.

I believe some quarter have interpreted that remark as showing support, if not symothy, for the shootinbs. I find that spin to be ludicrous. He has unequivocally condemned the attacks.


Was theres some remark in particular houre asking about?

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
22. I don't think he is in anyway showing support or sympathy for the shootings, but
Fri Jan 16, 2015, 06:21 PM
Jan 2015

I think he is saying that religious beliefs should be treated different than other things and that the limits on mocking or ridiculing them should be more strict.

One cannot provoke, one cannot insult other people's faith, one cannot make fun of faith."


He did make the comparison to insulting someone's mother, but otherwise did not extend it to cover other things.
 

rug

(82,333 posts)
23. I'll have to read the whole thing when I an use a kb instead of a finger.
Fri Jan 16, 2015, 06:26 PM
Jan 2015

But the short answer is anybodycan do whatever they want , no matter how stupid.

Whether they should, and, why, are other questions.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
24. Hope you are having fun in NYC.
Fri Jan 16, 2015, 06:31 PM
Jan 2015

Eat some street food for me if you get a chance.

I look forward to your thoughts after you read more about this.

I think he is calling for limits on free speech when it comes to religion and that is what I object to.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
25. Thanks. Made a quick detour to Sunnyside for White Castle.
Fri Jan 16, 2015, 06:36 PM
Jan 2015

I better get off this phone beforeI get su ked into something or other.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
39. Get thee to Katz's on East Houston while it's still there.
Mon Jan 19, 2015, 05:25 PM
Jan 2015

IF it's still there. My old hood.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
42. It is a great place, even without orgasms.
Mon Jan 19, 2015, 05:31 PM
Jan 2015

We almost went down there as well but it was too damned cold.

Did you ever go here when you lived downtown?



http://www.knishery.com/main.htm

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
43. I walked by it all the time, never went in.
Mon Jan 19, 2015, 05:44 PM
Jan 2015

We used to get knishes at a place on 2nd Ave, the Kiev, I think.

It's been a while, East Houston now has trees down a median and the bombed out buildings are long gone.

I found a dead body in one of them during college.

Good times!

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
44. The worse thing that happened to the city was Disney.
Mon Jan 19, 2015, 05:47 PM
Jan 2015

In the long run, even worse than Giuliani.

Those knishes are really worth going in, though.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
45. I moved there when it was still NYC, and I left as Disney moved in.
Mon Jan 19, 2015, 10:01 PM
Jan 2015

The day I first hit Manhattan there were a series of bank robberies, and the front pages of the dailies kept changing as I walked all over town, "two robberies", "fifth bank robbed", "ten banks"! And the trains were covered with graffiti inside and out. Outside colorful graffiti was glorious, I thought. Inside the trains, not so much.

I learned that, unlike the west coast, in New York a "regular coffee" has cream in it.

I found most people in Manhattan to be friendlier than those in San Francisco, and I felt at home.

I left as Times Square was becoming Disneyfied and I've only been back once.

The best parts are gone, IMO.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
46. I think it is still quite wonderful.
Tue Jan 20, 2015, 11:34 AM
Jan 2015

You can walk from one end of Manhattan to the other and see amazing neighborhoods and eat wonderful ethnic food. Central Park is vibrant and the subway system heavenly. The available theater is like nowhere else in the world.

I love it there.

demosincebirth

(12,529 posts)
21. Christians, Mormans and Jews have been made fun of (here) for years
Fri Jan 16, 2015, 06:20 PM
Jan 2015

except to make fun of Muslims you do so at risk of your life. That's the difference.

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