Another One Bites the Dust

[Cartoonist]

Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone has decided to close St. Rita School in Fairfax at the end of this school year because of financial problems.

The news comes two years after school parents and parishioners of St. Rita Church mounted a furious campaign to preserve the Catholic school from a previously planned closure.

“The response of the parishioners was one of anger, disappointment, and frustration,” Weare said. “The parishioners who are older are especially angry because some of them were here helping to build the school 57 years ago; others went to the school, graduated, got married, had children and those children went to our school — so the school is a very central part of our parish community.”


Full story here:
http://www.marinij.com/social-affairs/20150303/archbishop-orders-fairfaxs-st-rita-school-to-close

-
I hope I live long enough to see the closing of my old school.

[NYC_SKP]

1. Shame, really. It sounds like a good school with progressive educational strategies.

Since joining the school in August 2013, Black has been trying to adjust the K-8 school’s curriculum to attract more students. This year the school’s elementary school teachers began using the International Baccalaureate approach to instruction, which was created in Switzerland in 1968 for students in international schools.

Instead of teaching subjects such as science, math and history separately, “all of the subjects are woven thematically,” Black said. “Those different themes have a strong environmental component, a strong cultural component and a strong international component. It enhances critical thinking and problem solving.”

In addition, the school’s middle school teachers began adding a new project-based learning component to their classes that emphasizes science, technology, engineering and math.

Black said those curriculum changes are a “good way to differentiate ourselves from other Catholic schools and other private and public schools as well.”

I hope the students will have options that aren't depressingly bad.

[okasha]

2. Gossip suggests

that Cordileone is the next right-wing American prelate slated for a rock in the middle of nowhere. St. Rita's sounds like just the sort of school he'd want to shut down.

[NYC_SKP]

3. He's not at all popular among his more free-thinking teaching staff.

Over 350 Catholic School Teachers Call On San Francisco Archbishop To Drop Morality Clauses

SAN FRANCISCO (CBS SF) – More than 350 teachers in high schools administrated by the Catholic Archdiocese of San Francisco signed a letter urging Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone to drop proposed morality clauses from the teacher handbook.

According to organizers, 80 percent of the faculty and staff at the affected schools signed the letter. Organizers said they received signatures from 126 teachers and staff from Sacred Heart Cathedral Prep, 87 from Serra High School in San Mateo, 74 at Archbishop Riordan and 68 at Marin Catholic.

In the letter, the teachers said, “We believe the recently proposed handbook language is harmful to our community and creates an atmosphere of mistrust and fear. We believe our schools should be places of inquiry and the free exchange of ideas where all feel welcome and affirmed.”

“This language in this judgmental context undermines the mission of Catholic education and the inclusive, diverse and welcoming community we prize at our schools,” said Sacred Heart Cathedral teacher Jim Jordan, who helped organize the campaign.

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2015/03/03/catholic-school-teachers-archdiocese-san-francisco-archbishop-salvatore-cordileone-morality-clauses-abortion-contraception-same-sex-marriage/

[cbayer]

66. He's a nightmare and it's alarming that his decision is being cheered

by those who don't have any knowledge about this school other than it is catholic.

Supporting parent choice is not anti-public school and there are lots of excellent parochial schools in this country.

But its catholic!!!! It has to be very, very bad!!!!!

[Goblinmonger]

67. Vouchers and school choice is very much anti-public schools.

That's what it's all about. Take a look at who is supporting the voucher movement and get back to me.

[hrmjustin]

4. Try to contain your glee.

[Warren Stupidity]

5. Why?

[hrmjustin]

6. Because people's hearts are broken.

Put yourself in their shoes Warren.

[Warren Stupidity]

7. People here on DU?

[hrmjustin]

8. People in the story.

[Warren Stupidity]

9. The story's feelings are hurt?

[hrmjustin]

10. The people inside the story Warren.

[Warren Stupidity]

12. Are readers of du?

[hrmjustin]

15. Maybe.

[Warren Stupidity]

18. So on the faint possibility that somebody reading this forum

might take offense at the OP's opinion of catholic schools, you took it upon yourself to admonish the op for expressing that opinion.

Should all opinions that somebody on the planet might find offensive also be suppressed on DU?

[hrmjustin]

19. Tone policing Warren?

[muriel_volestrangler]

22. Correct - #4 was definitely tone policing

I'm glad you can see it now.

[hrmjustin]

27. No mine was sarcasm.

[muriel_volestrangler]

36. So - you're saying what?

#19 was sarcasm, because it was already obvious to everyone that #4 was tone policing, and you didn't think it needed anyone to point it out?

#4 was sarcasm, because you actually feel the 'glee' too?

Something else?

[hrmjustin]

37. I think you are reading too much into the conversation.

Warren and I are just having another moment. No big deal.

[Warren Stupidity]

32. Should all opinions that somebody on the planet might find offensive also be suppressed on DU?

Still waiting for an answer.

[hrmjustin]

33. No one is suppressing anything.

My post was said sarcasticly.

Does that meet eith your satisfaction?

[Warren Stupidity]

42. Huh?

"Try to contain your glee."

Sarcasm:

The use of words that mean the opposite of what you really want to say especially in order to insult someone, to show irritation, or to be funny

So what your really meant was "Please express more glee"?

I agree that nobody is being successful in suppressing anything, and I of course agree that you were tone trolling. But that wasn't my question up above, the one you still aren't answering.

Be honest Justin, you attempted to scold the OP for expressing what you perceived to be "glee" at the closing of a religious school. You further indicated that you felt the "glee" expressed was inappropriate because it could hurt the feelings of some people reading the message. Fine. That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. Now, do you also apply the same standard to all other opinions expressed here on DU? That they should not be expressed here if they could hurt anyone on the planet's feelings?

[hrmjustin]

45. Aw! Did I confuse you?

Don't be confused and just accept I said it sarcasticly.

[Warren Stupidity]

55. There is only one confused person in this subthread.

I tried to help you Justin with the definition of sarcastic, but it seems that you still think it just means "nasty".

[hrmjustin]

57. Well I never requested your help and if I needed help on how to behave you would be the last person

i would ask.

Cheers Warren!

[Warren Stupidity]

59. Still haven't answered the question.

I understand that you have a thing about me. That wasn't the question. Just in case you've forgotten:

Do you disapprove of the expression of all opinions that might upset anyone who could possibly read DU?

[Goblinmonger]

61. sssshhhh

You're supposed to have forgotten about that by now.

[hrmjustin]

68. I have a thing about you. lmfao!

Warren I assure you I don't go looking for you, but you come looking for me.

I am not the one banned from safe havens.

[Warren Stupidity]

72. You still haven't answered the question.

Just in case you've forgotten:

Do you disapprove of the expression of all opinions that might upset anyone who could possibly read DU?

[hrmjustin]

73. I just did. people can post what they want.

I don't disapprove of different opinions here.

[hrmjustin]

71. And to answer you question people can post what they want.

Thry don't need my approval.

[Warren Stupidity]

74. So when I asked why you admonished the OP for his "glee"

and you responded:


Because people's hearts are broken. Put yourself in their shoes Warren.


That response was bullshit?

[hrmjustin]

75. No not at all. i was giving an opinion.

[Warren Stupidity]

93. An opinion that the op's glee was inappropriate?

[okasha]

96. I get the goat thing now.

Do you boil it or fry it or stew it up with rutabaga?

[hrmjustin]

99. Still trying to figure what his fixation on goats is all about.

[okasha]

124. He's a foodie.

[hrmjustin]

97. Why are you so concerned about what I said?

[okasha]

95. That requires empathy.

[Cartoonist]

14. I am happy for the children

Unless their parents are willing to pony up the money to send them to another parish, they will have to attend a public school. No more daily indoctrinization of myths and superstitions. They will meet other kids of other faiths, maybe even an atheist. They will be exposed to new ways of thinking. As for those whose feelings are hurt because they will no longer be able to control their children's minds, a pox on them.

[hrmjustin]

16. Have you been to Catholic school as a child?

[AtheistCrusader]

24. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

[Cartoonist]

26. 7 Years

While I acknowledge that things have changed, a z Catholic school is more than just a classroom with a crucifix on the wall. Just the removal of that symbol alone is a major victory for freedom of thought. I couldn't be happier for these kids and my country.

[hrmjustin]

28. Is the crucifix stopping freedom?

[truebrit71]

29. Read the whole quote...."freedom of thought"...

...and yes, a crucifix prevents that...

[hrmjustin]

30. lol.

[cbayer]

38. A symbol does not stop "freedom of thought".

Does these symbols alone stop freedom of thought?




Of course they don't.

Symbols can be used to intimidate, marginalize, dictate certain ways of speaking or thinking, but they are just symbols.

As I noted, my son went to a catholic school. He's an atheist. There were crosses in the classrooms. He freedom of thought was not restricted or prevented.

[truebrit71]

47. Uh huh....like the swastika, or the hammer and sickle yes?

For an impressionable child the ever-present reminder of a horrific and violent death absolutely stifles freedom of thought...

The message is quite clear...

Not that you are being deliberately disingenuous or anything....

[cbayer]

65. Again, those are just symbols.

In fact, the swastika has a history that pre-dates it's use by the nazis and has been a very positive symbol in some cultures.

For many people, the crucifix is a symbol of something very positive. You can not extend your experience of that symbol on to anyone else.

If you can show me data that supports your position that the crucifix stifles freedom of thought, I would be glad to look at it.

Without that, it is simply your opinion, unsupported by evidence and based on faith.

When you resort to personal insults, you have surrendered. I accept your capitulation.

[truebrit71]

69. Yup. The physical reminder of the torture and death of someone nailed to a cross..

...to a 6 or 7 year-old is so freeing....so inspiring to free thoughts rather than obeying the doctrinal commands of those in power over you at the school to do as you are told because the nailed dead guy suffered for YOUR sins....so freeing...

I see that you have surrendered logic and decided to stick with being disingenuous. I accept your capitulation.

Oh, and I think it's more than a little rich for you to use the phrase "unsupported by evidence" in the very same thread where you have been shown to have done the very same thing...

[cbayer]

70. What you need to recognize is that what the symbol says to you can not

extended to anyone else. There are likely people who share your feelings, but it's not true for everyone. I was raised in the church and my experience is distinctly different than yours. I was raised in a tradition of free thought where questions were encouraged and expected.

More personal insults?

I misread an article and made a misstatement. I researched further, saw that I was mistaken and withdrew the statement. I had no evidence and owned up to it.

What in the world is disingenuous about that? Are you able to do the same?

[truebrit71]

79. Why would I do the same? I haven't made a "mis-statement" that has needed to be walked back...

...But do go on about how being told you will go to hell if you don't follow the rules TO THE LETTER because jesus died for your sins encourages free though in ANY WAY AT ALL????

[cbayer]

82. I am sorry that you were told that if you didn't follow the rules TO THE LETTER

that you were going to hell.

That must have been very difficult for you and I am not surprised that you feel your free thought was inhibited by that.

[truebrit71]

85. It wasn't just me...

...and it's the message that is drummed into literally millions of impressionable children around the world...

That's why it has a stifling effect...not all parochial schools are as forward-thinking as your kids's school appear to have been...and that is a real shame because it creates followers not leaders...and that's the real tragedy in all this...

[cbayer]

87. Of course it wasn't just you, but it also wasn't everyone who had an experience

in a catholic school.

There are posts in this thread that are testaments to an entirely different experience.

I agree that it is a tragedy when schools of any type stifle free thought, but this particular school does not appear to be one of those at all.

That is why I object to cheering it's demise based solely on the fact that it is catholic. That's just wrong.

[okasha]

98. Hardly.

I attended an Ursuline school. My graduating class, which was pretty much the same 30 girls from 4th. grade on, produced 8 PhD's. Almost all the rest finished BA's and about half of those went on to Masters'.

[cbayer]

39. You are happy for these kids? Malarkey.

Their parents aren't happy and I doubt the kids are happy. Your being happy for them is only because this suits your personal agenda. It has nothing to do with them.

[Goblinmonger]

41. What about women that are culturally forced to wear a burka?

If they don't feel oppressed and are fine with it should it just be let go then? Nothing done to help the state of women in that culture?

What about the women that were culturally forced to have genital mutilation? If they are fine with it and happy to live with it, who are we to say it's wrong?

What about women in abusive relationships that are happy?

I'm not saying that religion is any of these things, but as a medical professional, are you seriously saying that people can't be happy about being part of something that is, in fact, very very bad for them?

[cbayer]

17. Perhaps things have changed since you were a child.

One of my children went to catholic school. He's not catholic, wasn't raised religious at all and is an atheist. The school included many non-catholics.

They were taught comparative religions and there was no "daily indoctrination". Participation in religious actives was optional.

In some communities, the options are very limited. The public schools available to my son were terrible, even dangerous.

Before you judge, you really should make sure you know what this school is about and not just evaluate it based on your pre-conceptions.

[okasha]

21. No, you're happy for you.

The children are losing a liberal school with a far better curriculum than public schools that teach to the exit tests.

[Goblinmonger]

43. Anti-public school sentiments on a Progressive website

At least it's always interesting to see what will be said here.

[okasha]

51. I'm not a "progressive."

But I'm rather surprised to see a public school teacher defending teaching to a test instead of providing a liberal education. The conscientious public school teachers I know are all completely frustrated by the practice.

[Goblinmonger]

52. Well, this is a progressive website

and one that is supposed to project progressive viewpoints.

Where did I say I defended teaching to a test? Where does it say that the public school teachers in this town are lovingly teaching to the test? Where does it say what is going on in the classroom?

But we are back at the point where we began, I don't believe public school bashing so much belongs on a progressive site as it might more so belong on something funded by the Koch Brothers.

[okasha]

119. So go ahead and alert.

Here, I'll help you. "This makes DU suck."

I'm a socialist, not a liberal who's either trying to paper over the l-word or concealing a slide toward the right by calling myself a "progressive."

I don't believe any good is served by pretending that test-driven public education is anything but the disaster it is. YMMV.

[Goblinmonger]

121. when have i ever pretended that?

Where is the indication that schools in that district do that?

Stop making shit up.

[okasha]

123. You might want to drop your little admonition closer to home.

Here are some possible subjects:

yachts
genocide
moving goalposts

I will be happy to suggest other topics when you've dealt with those.

[Goblinmonger]

125. what does that have to do with taxing to the test

And what you have claimed I've said?

Are you ok? Seriously?

[okasha]

126. That question, too.

I haven't said a word about "taxing to the test."

[Goblinmonger]

127. Pardon not catching my phone autocorrect

What does what you just say have to do with the conversation we were having?

Where have I ever defended teaching to the test? Where have we learned that the district on question does that? Or that they even have poor public schools?

[muriel_volestrangler]

133. Wow - you atuomatically assume private schools are more liberal than public ones

and you have proudly stood by that.

Why have you got an avatar of a Democratic politician? They are pro-public school, you know.

[cbayer]

134. I know that Okasha is perfectly capable of defending her position, but

your description of what she says is quite distorted, and I want to respond.

This is what she says:

The children are losing a liberal school with a far better curriculum than public schools that teach to the exit tests.

She is comparing a specific school with a progressive and liberal curriculum to a specific kind of public school, those that teach to the exit tests.

Nothing in that post says that private schools in general are more liberal than public schools in general and nothing there would indicate that she is not pro-public school. Your backhanded accusation that she not a Democrat is really uncalled for.

[muriel_volestrangler]

135. Where is the evidence for the 'liberal' curriculum?

There is none; and, given the archdiocese's rules about their teachers' personal lives and what they're allowed to teach, I doubt it is 'liberal'. At best, they will avoid talking about the subjects on which the Catholic church has conservative views.

Okasha assumes the public schools in Marin County teach to exit tests. Otherwise, why bring them up? Cartoonist just talked about the public schools the pupils will go to instead of St. Rita's, and okasha's reply was claiming that the children wouldn't be better off at the public schools, and that therefore Cartoonist was only happy for Cartoonist.

[cbayer]

136. Did you get to read the link that I gave you earlier?

http://www.marinij.com/opinion/20150304/marin-voice-reasons-for-the-church-to-support-st-rita-school

St. Rita School in Fairfax nearly closed two years ago due to declining enrollment, and is now facing closure again. Despite its attempt to become more progressive with the implementation of the International Baccalaureate program in elementary school and a STEM program in middle school, its survival is not a worthy cause in the eyes of San Francisco’s archbishop.

the dedicated teachers and administrators of Catholic schools carry on, committed to providing a high-quality product, even if that product does not always meet the conservative preferences of the church’s hierarchy.

I suspect one of the reasons this school is being targeted is because it is too liberal, though specific information regarding that is not available.

Okasha does not make an assumption about schools in Marin County. In fact she doesn't mention Marin schools at all, but compares this curriculum to public schools that do teach to the test.

Cartoonist is only happy for Cartoonist, imo. He doesn't appear to care at all whether the children are going to be harmed by this closure. He is just gleeful that a catholic school is closing and is gleeful based solely on it being catholic.

[muriel_volestrangler]

137. In education, 'progressive' is not the same as 'liberal'

That head teacher is talking about Catholic schools in general perhaps not being as conservative as the hierarchy would like; that doesn't mean they are 'liberal' compared to a typical Marin County public school.

You appear to be saying okasha was trying to hijack the thread, then, if you think she was talking about a situation other than what faces the children. But since okasha was claiming Cartoonist didn't care about these children (as you accuse them of too), then okasha was surely talking about the alternative these children face.

[cbayer]

138. Well, since Okasha is in education, I am going to defer the definition to her.

Her point was very clear, at least to me.

I don't know much about Marin public schools, do you? I do know that California is having significant problems with public education due to financial problems. It looks like the public elementary school has a 4/5 rating, the public middle school a 3/5 rating and St. Rita's a 5/5 rating. That's an internet rating poll and the numbers aren't huge, so it should be taken with a grain of salt. There are also "great schools" ratings, but that is based solely on test scores and St. Rita's is not included.

Why in the world would you think I am saying that Okasha tried to hijack the thread? She is merely making the point that this looks like a pretty good school and that it may be superior to some of the alternatives.

This is the same point I was making.

Cartoonist only appears to care about the children based on his highly prejudiced and erroneous belief that catholic schools are bad.

It's the knee jerk negative assumptions that both she and I are objecting to.

Do you think his assumptions are valid?

[muriel_volestrangler]

139. I think Cartoonist's assumptions are more valid than okasha's, and yours

Cartoonist assumes that the Catholic church pressures their schools to put forward a Catholic, conservative, perspective. We have evidence they do pressure them; it's possible this school successfully ignored that, but we don't know. So okasha's assumption that this school is more liberal than the alternative public schools looks invalid.

Cartoonist assumes the Catholic school will put forward a Catholic, Christian point of view. We see that a Catholic priest is involved with it; we have a quote from a parent that "our child’s experience in school has opened a dialogue in our home about God", so we see that it is inculcating a monotheistic point of view. We can also see the parents link the school to the church:

Braun said, "The fear is that if the school were to go then the church is the next to go."

Gubbins said, "It is becoming a huge fear because the school feeds the church."

Michael Pon, a parent who has three daughters attending St. Rita, said, "The school is the life engine of the church; it creates a lot more energy."

http://www.marinij.com/general-news/20130313/anonymous-donor-pledges-200000-to-help-keep-st-rita-school-open

[cbayer]

140. I'm sorry to hear that. I thought you would be more thoughtful and

assess individual schools on their specific merits and drawbacks.

I really don't have anything else to say here.

[okasha]

142. You are making assumptions about my assumptions.

That puts you at two moves away from reality.

If you are actually interested in what I have to say about religious and public education, read my post in Warren's bullshit poll thread. To which I will add this:

George Bush did his damnedest to wreck public education in the US, using Texas as his prototype. Schwartzeneger was a disaster for public education in California. I have friends who teach in public schools in both states, and They. Are. Not. Happy. Campers. They're drowning in administrative paperwork, which takes significant time away from lesson prep and teaching. Many of them send their own kids to religious and other private schools, or to magnet schools reflecting their kids' interests. At least in my city, all of these alternatives to the public schools have waiting lists. Parents put their newborns on one parochial school's waiting lists, hoping for a place five years in the future. They're not religious fanatics, and they're not all Catholic. They just want a good education for their kids, which public schools can't always provide.

[okasha]

143. It looks from here like

you're the one hijacking the thread, Muriel. If hijacking concerns you, you have the choice whether to stop it or not.

[muriel_volestrangler]

145. I think I've remained on topic, and I think you have too, really

It was cbayer's contention that you weren't talking about the Fairfax public schools that, if it had been true, would have meant a hijacked thread. I was just pointing out cbayer's contention didn't hold up under inspection.,

[okasha]

144. Thanks for your posts here.

I hadn't seen Muriel's posts until about half an hour ago, or I would have stepped in earlier.

And to take the thread completely off-topic--if you haven't encountered capirotada yet, put it on your culinary priority list. I had some of the best ever this evening at a Mexican vegetarian restaurant. Delicious.

[cbayer]

146. No worries, though I made little headway.

It seems that an interpretation had been made and no amount of reason, rational thinking or accurate information is going to change that.

I have not heard of or seen capirotada, but I'm going to look for it!

[okasha]

147. Yeah, the "Never mind the facts; I gotta get the secret handshake response

Capirotada is a bread pudding served during Lent.The version I had last night also contained pineapple, panela cheese, peanuts, almonds, pecans, cajeta and anise. I bought extra to take home.

[cbayer]

148. I read up on it and saw that it also can contain meat, which is interesting.

I'm in Guadalajara taking a Spanish class and am taking a food tour tomorrow. I'm going to ask where I can get some capirotada.

[cbayer]

11. I would look carefully at anything Cordlieone does.

He is a rabidly conservative, homophobe that is demanding all kinds of loyalty oaths from the teachers in SF schools.

Look carefully at what schools he closes before you pop the champagne.

[Warren Stupidity]

13. Good news!

[cbayer]

20. Information about this school to consider before calling in the cheerleaders

The majority of kids in this school are not catholic.

The school has introduced a very progressive curriculum.

The school avoids religious indoctrination and focuses on educating students on all the different religions of the world.

The public schools in the area are not good.

The only other alternatives in the neighborhood are private and much more expensive than this one.

Cheering for a schools closing simply because it is catholic shows your true colors, and it's not pretty.

[muriel_volestrangler]

23. "The public schools in the area are not good" - evidence, please

http://www.marinmodern.com/Fairfax-Schools.php

[cbayer]

34. I said that incorrectly and I withdraw it.

The parents who send their kids to this school have indicated that they want values-based instruction and feel the catholic school offers that.

It is not that the public schools aren't good, it is that they don't provide what these parents want.

http://www.marinij.com/opinion/20150304/marin-voice-reasons-for-the-church-to-support-st-rita-school

My point is that cheering the closing of a school based only the fact that it is catholic is highly biased and should be challenged.

[trotsky]

35. "It is not that the public schools aren't good"

You're damn right it's not. So your initial comment was not based on any facts at all, but only what you hoped was true to further support your narrative that religion provides things that secular and/or governmental institutions are failing at. That's been a consistent theme of yours for a very long time, even causing you to accuse other DUers of proposing genocide when they suggest the RCC should not be able to buy up hospitals and dictate what services can or cannot be offered, even to non-Catholics.

[AtheistCrusader]

40. Interesting. You said failing to properly advocate for secularizing schools was a missed opportunity

in this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=183912

Here's an opportunity to not just advocate for it, but to DO it. And you're flip flopping.

Fascinating.

[trotsky]

50. That's different!

Because DAKWISN!!!!11one1!OMGBBQLOL!

[Goblinmonger]

54. .........

[Warren Stupidity]

44. "values-based instruction" - so you support indoctrinating children

with the homophobic and misogynistic beliefs of the RCC.

[skepticscott]

46. In other words

You made shit up that you knew wasn't true, got caught in a lie, and are now trying to backpedal and cover your ass.

[truebrit71]

48. Well, yes....

If you want to put it that way....

[skepticscott]

49. I love the euphemism

"I said that incorrectly"

[AtheistCrusader]

25. I will NEVER trust a religious school over a public school. Never.

One might be better than the other, at any given moment, due to various circumstances, according to certain measures, but at the very least, one has legal constraints, protections, and recourse from various forms of indoctrination and proselytizing. That means, I will ALWAYS prefer, even a temporarily inferior school, for the protections that come with Public funding.

Public school efficacy and efficiency issues are surmountable.

[yeoman6987]

102. Except for the fact the we rate extremely low on the

World stage in the majority of subjects. So not sure what you are trying to say there.

[AtheistCrusader]

108. Maybe you should re-read it, because your objection doesn't apply to what I said.

[yeoman6987]

110. I stand by my previous reply. It certainly does.

[AtheistCrusader]

114. Read the first and last sentences REALLY carefully.

Because no, it doesn't.

[yeoman6987]

117. I did have to slow down and read it carefully

You are right. I misread your last line totally. Sorry about that.

[AtheistCrusader]

128. No worries, and I apologize. I could have been a lot nicer in my response.

[Goblinmonger]

109. oh please

More RW talking points

[yeoman6987]

111. Hold the phone

I only read DU for my news and MANY times it has been brought up that we rank low in Science and Math then the rest of the countries in Europe for example. You must have read OPs that say this when discussing education funding cuts. Now what did you say?

[Goblinmonger]

116. that is comparing their best

To our everyone. Our best to their best puts us about,shockingly, even. You do know most European countries track right? That only their best take the tests that compare.

[yeoman6987]

118. Oh ok....lol. I will invite that to the next OP on funding when it is brought up.

Should go over well.

[Goblinmonger]

120. do we need more funding to meet the needs of all?

Yes. Are we significantly below other countries? No. Even Singapore, who tops the test scores sends people to our schools because all they can do is get good test scores and not get the creativity from students that our schools can.

But do we have seriously underfunded districts and areas? Yes. Don't be silly.

[Warren Stupidity]

31. no links no verification = unsubstantiated bullshit

So you support indoctrinating children to believe in homophobia and misogyny. Good to know.

[Goblinmonger]

53. So two people on this progressive web site pushing anti-public education.

Amazing.

Or are you not a "progressive" either?

The public schools in the area are not good.

You base this on what? As you have indicated--on nothing. I think that I have seen it all on a progressive site and then, bam, public education bashing a la Koch brothers.

[trotsky]

56. Marin County, California.

17th richest county in the entire U.S. of A. Oh, I'm sure its public schools are shit.

Well, at least they are when you're committed to the idea that we need religion to provide education, food shelves, health care, etc. because the government isn't "stepping up to the plate." (And you promote that meme at every chance.)

Yup, eerily similar to the Koch strategy. Freaking sucks to see it here on DU.

[Goblinmonger]

62. Well, one of the people pushing Koch talking points isn't a progressive

or at least that's what she says.

[skepticscott]

60. Nobody but religious apologists needs information like

"The public schools in the area are not good."

Which cbayer has already admitted was of questionable reliability, to put it mildly.

[Warren Stupidity]

63. what a fabulous train wreck of religious privilege on display here.

it never fails.

[skepticscott]

64. Privilege and knee-jerk apologetics

And all of the apologists caught out simply making shit up to bolster a non-existent argument, or going straight to their usual unsupported accusations of "bigotry". A jury didn't take long to smack that down, either.

Wonder why?

[pinto]

76. In re: symbolism. I attended Jesuit Catholic schools.

Each classroom had a cross on the wall, a portrait of the current pope, a portrait of the current US President and an American flag. My US history classroom added a portrait of George Washington. I never felt any were overbearing or some sort of mind control indoctrination.

In the early grades I didn't associate the pictures to anything specific - albeit the cross was just that, not a graphic depiction of a tortuous execution. Later on, to varying degrees we took it all with a grain of salt, imo. Duh, it was a Catholic school. You didn't expect a cross on the wall?

That said, the courses were varied, interesting and engaging. As were the instructors. Some were nuns, some priests, some secular, some decidedly challenging. A varied mix as in any school I guess. We students were not all Catholic. We were not asked to profess any belief. Yet we were asked to engage in our own education, actively not passively. That was a clear standard.

[cbayer]

77. Wait, what?? Your freedom of thought wasn't restricted?

You didn't experience daily indoctrinization of myths and superstitions.

You weren't restricted to only being with other indoctrinated catholic children?

This can not be true. Your mind has definitely been controlled!

[hrmjustin]

78. The nuns that taught me were rather progressive and taught us to have an open mind.

[cbayer]

80. Not possible. There are those who had experiences different than yours, and

clearly theirs are the only valid ones.

[hrmjustin]

81. Lol. The crosses on the wall were stopping freedom!

[cbayer]

83. I thought they stopped vampires, and that's a good thing, right?

[hrmjustin]

84. Apparently according to some it stops freedom from going on.

They can try to explain it but it sounds ridiculous to me. Crosses in a Catholic school, what is the world coming to!

[cbayer]

86. To be fair, I do think there are those who have been traumatized by their

religion experiences. People with PTSD are often very sensitive to symbols or images that remind them of their traumatic experiences.

That's a fact.

What isn't a fact is that what has been traumatic to one person is traumatic to every one else.

While it is noble to want to protect children from traumatic experiences, it is very close minded to think that one's personal experience typifies all experiences.

[hrmjustin]

88. That is true and I have sympathy for people who had those experiences but crosses in a

Catholic school should not surprise anyone here and it is perfectly appreciate.

In my Episcopal Parish's school we have crosses and the kids seem well adjusted to me.

There parents pay 33,000 year to send the kids there and expe t religious education for their children.

[cbayer]

89. I agree. It's the knee jerk rejection of all things catholic, or even all things religious,

that I object to.

It's no better than those who reject all things associated with atheism or with sexual orientation or any number of things.

Wow, $33,000/year? I'm going to expect a whole lot more than religious education in that case.

[hrmjustin]

90. 33,000 is average for private schools in Manhattan including some Chatholic schools now.

Financial aid is available in some of those schooks but not enough.

[cbayer]

91. Wow! Talk about restricting parent choice.

Are the public school choices good?

[hrmjustin]

92. In Manhattan yes for the most psrt except for some schools in the north of the island.

In the outer boroughs the schools depend on the neighborhood.

[Goblinmonger]

100. and vouchers totally make it so poor kids can go there.

Oh, wait, no they don't. They just save the rich people that already go there some money.

You really need to look into school choice movement more fully. Just because it had the word "choice" in it doesn't make it a liberal or good thing.

[Warren Stupidity]

94. I attended public school. In 9th grade all the parochial kids got poured into the high school

and they were pretty consistently massively unready to perform at 9th grade levels. The education they got was shitty. The horror stories they told were a source of amazement to the rest of us. You had a different experience, good for you.

[Act_of_Reparation]

103. I was one of those 9th graders.

Despite having stellar grades, the parochial schools had such a bad reputation I was still refused admittance into honors courses until I could prove I could hack it there.

The horror stories? All true.

[pinto]

107. Yeah, I had a decidedly different experience.

I think that speaks to the flaw in ascribing a cookie cutter assumption to any and all schools. There's good ones and poor ones I guess. I got lucky.

[AtheistCrusader]

112. We got a bunch from the local Lutheran school, same, 9th grade.

They couldn't read for shit. I would sometimes skip college prep language arts because the class had to take turns going around the room, reading out loud, and I couldn't stand them bumbling through the material. It was horrifying.

Still got an A with the absences though

(This is purely anecdotal, and may not apply to ANY OTHER SCHOOL ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE PLANET, no rights reserved, preserved, jammed, or jellied.)

[Mariana]

130. The 9th graders from the parochial schools

where I lived were behind the public school students, but they were far and away better off than the kids from the two local Baptist schools.

[okasha]

122. My school had pretty much the same decor.

There was a small crucifix above the front blackboard in each room, mostly ignored in favor of a much larger statue of Our Lady of Grace. One room had a humongous picture of St. Angela; another had Jacob with ladder and angels; in an English classroom there was a picture of St. Anne teaching Mary to read. You'd think the place was downright feminist.

[yeoman6987]

101. Horrid news. Catholic schools offer the best education

For the least amount of money. Too many positives I. catholic education to see them close. I had K-12 Catholic education and am proud of it. Helped me a great deal in getting my Bachelors and MBA. The deciipline alone was worth it....I am talking about insisting on homework being done and getting good grades. Oh well maybe we can get Congress to save them....lol.

[cbayer]

104. It seems clear from this thread that there is a broad spectrum

when it comes to catholic schools. Some have had very positive experiences and some very negative.

That's why it is critical to assess each school independently instead of simply trashing it or praising it just because it is a catholic school.

[yeoman6987]

105. I agree. I was lucky to live and grow up where

We had 15 Catholic schools in our county that all filtered into the high school. However not all 15 were great. I liked my education though. I grew up in Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania.

[cbayer]

106. I raised my kids in a place where the public education system was a disaster.

There was a "magnet" system, but it was very difficult to access and not all kids could qualify.

The option of having catholic high schools saved a lot of kids and my experience with them was mostly very positive.

Off topic, but I had the privilege of singing in Lehigh one year in a christmas concert. I will never forget the beautiful star that Bethlehem puts up during the season.

Beautiful area of this country.

[yeoman6987]

115. Thanks. I am glad you enjoyed the area.

[trotsky]

132. ...

That's why it is critical to assess each school independently instead of simply trashing it or praising it just because it is a catholic school.

That's also why it is critical to assess each PUBLIC school independently instead of simply trashing it just because it is a PUBLIC school, as you did. And then found out you were so terribly wrong.

[Goblinmonger]

113. as a public school teacher

I do nothing to try get kids to get good grades and do homework. For fucks sake. You don't think that private schools get a good rap because a select group get to go there and if you don't meet those levels they kick you out whereas public schools have to take and teach everyone. That can't be it.

[AtheistCrusader]

129. Wait, are you suggesting kids that have basic needs (like food) met, do better in school?

Doesn't sound terribly likely to me, no sir. They just need some boot straps.

[Warren Stupidity]

131. Speaking of "boot straps"

I was listening to a podcast where it was pointed out that "pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps" was originally intended to mean "doing the impossible", as it is literally impossible to do that, and has now come to mean that those not born rich ought to just blame themselves for their condition.

[Cartoonist]

141. A general response

A lot of issues have been raised here. Rather than reply to each item, I will try to address a few.

First and foremost, these kids will not suffer from a bad education elsewhere. As Trotsky pointed out, Marin is very wealthy and our schools have all the modern conveniences. We also have plenty of other private schools that offer eclectic curriculums. They just don't offer that religious bullshit, which is why I am so happy for these kids.

I can't denigrate the quality of education offered by Catholic schools. I attended one for seven years. I made the transition to public school in Junior High without skipping a beat. I do regret having spent at least one hour a day studying all that religious BS. And I resent the fact that I was forced to attend church EVERY day. I consider that child abuse.

One poster tried to score points by remarking about the number of MBA's and PHD's their religious school produced. I am more concerned about how many of them graduated from the superstition and myths they were forced to swallow.

About that crucifix on the wall. Pinto noted that in his school, there was a crucifix in every room, also a picture of the current pope. I remember seeing this swastika, er, I mean this logo:

A couple of posters thought nothing of it. Just typical Catholic decor. They miss the point. It's called reinforcement, or indoctrination, or more accurately, brainwashing. Just look at how effective it was on them. Kids in that environment were never able to be free of the ever present dogma they were forced to respect. They had a dead guy looking over their shoulder in every room. This is the world they were forced to acknowledge and obey. This is why it is so important that our public schools be free of this shit. No crucifixes, no graphics of the Ten Commandments, no creche. Stop fucking with kid's minds.