The devil is punishing Mexico with violence, says Pope Francis

[Eugene]

Source: Reuters

The devil is punishing Mexico with violence, says Pope Francis

Reuters
Friday 13 March 2015 17.31 GMT

The devil is punishing Mexico with criminal violence, Pope Francis said, just a few weeks after the Mexican government complained that the Pontiff had stigmatised the country as a breeding ground for gangland chaos.

“I think the devil is punishing Mexico with great fury,” the 78-year-old Francis told Mexican television in an interview broadcast late on Thursday when discussing the disappearance and apparent massacre of 43 Mexican students last year.

Arguing that the devil was angry with Mexico for its Christian faith, Francis said “everyone had to put their back into resolving” the criminal malaise afflicting the country.

Mexico, a strongly Roman Catholic nation, has been racked by drug violence in the past decade. More than 100,000 people have died in clashes between Mexican drug gangs and their battles with security forces over the last eight years.

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Read more: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/13/pope-francis-mexico-devil-punishing-violence

[underpants]

1. El Diablo!

[Panich52]

2. Pope just doesn't seem able to keep both feet in the 21st century

[Dawson Leery]

3. Confirmed: the Pope is the great whore of babylon.

Hitchens had these bastards pegged. Why would we want anything to do with a God who punishes innocent people?

[gordianot]

4. As far as punishing goes who is the source god or the devil?

Must be hard to keep track.

[SheilaT]

5. I have no patience whatsover with this sort of crap.

The violence in Mexico has nothing to do with the devil, just as no hurricanes have anything to do with gay people. Stuff happens. Terrible weather events happen. Violence happens, and there are all sorts of societal and sociological reasons.

I suppose in all fairness, the Pope cannot help seeing everything through the prism of Catholicism.

[Hoppy]

6. The interesting news this p.m. is that Francis says he migh retire in a few years.

[mucifer]

7. That is a horribly cruel thing to say.

[MisterP]

8. I do know the expression is "mal paga el Diablo"

más y menos:

the PRI is a very interesting chimera--its socialism becoming quite "national" many times; it went from technocracy to "the cartel party" and from natalism to bragging about Dioscorea yams very quickly

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom%C3%A1s_Garrido_Canabal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutarco_El%C3%ADas_Calles
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Yunque_(organization)

[skepticscott]

9. Yes, but if you listen to the yacht clubbers

he's making PROGRESS! Change takes time!! It takes many years to divest yourself of ignorant, medieval superstitions and drag your sorry ass into the 20th Century. And only once you've done that can you stop being a hateful, homophobic bigot. Or maybe not even then.

But hey…keep the popelove coming!

[edhopper]

10. This is just an excuse

for the people who are the real villains there, and an excuse for his God for allowing this to happen.
(I also wonder how much the Drug Lords give to the Church?)

The Devil made me do it is a punchline, not a theology.

[skepticscott]

11. What else is theology but elaborate excuses for the harshness and excesses of religion and "faith"?

dressed up to look like profound and meaningful ideas? An attempt to understand and explain "god"? Sure..until the explanations become awkward and they have to resort to some variation of "god works in mysterious ways". An attempt that has achieved exactly nothing in the way of real understanding, despite the waste of centuries and the spilling of oceans of ink.

[edhopper]

12. You might think that,

I couldn't possibly comment.

[cbayer]

13. Truly a slap in the face to the good people of Mexico.

It has nothing to do with the devil or being punished.

[skepticscott]

14. So why would this wonderful, liberal, game-changing pope

say such hateful and bigoted things? And why would you and your cronies continue to regard him as some sort of hero or savior, despite being shown over and over why he's no such thing?

But of course, if we were to adhere to the argument you've tried to fling at people here frequently, your declaration that "It has nothing to do with the devil" requires absolute proof. Do you have any? If not, this is just your opinion, based on nothing but faith.

[okasha]

15. This is such a strange statement

that I would like to see the original Italian or Spanish before commenting.

[cbayer]

16. That's a good point.

It is a very strange statement. There may be a problem in translation, or there is a metaphor here that alludes me.

But I live here, and this just feels really wrong.

[skepticscott]

17. The only reason you have a problem with it

is that you can't reconcile it with your continued support for, and unabashed apologetics defending the pope. Well, tough. That's the kind of quandry you find yourself in when you defend a superstitious, medievally minded fool, and a virulently homophobic bigot, who is determined to deny gays and lesbians their equal rights as human beings, everywhere in the world.

But there is nothing "strange" about this statement. It is entirely consistent with the wonderpope's previously expressed beliefs and attitudes. It is a horrible, despicable thing to say, but of course you can't bring yourself to admit that, so you trot out another lame excuse to try to reconcile the pope's hateful attitudes with your praise and support for him.

[hrmjustin]

19. Are you saying okasha can't stand up to homophobia?

I think that will come as news to her.

[okasha]

26. He's saying exactly the same thing he's said for years now,

the same tape played over and over.

He's probably pissed about getting his post hidden, though

[hrmjustin]

28. And getting more upset you are not responding.

The poor guy.

Like you need to be lectured on homophobia. He has no business lecturing you on homophobia.

[okasha]

30. He'll just have to be upset, then.

No point in posting into a vacuum, given how many people seem to have him on ignore.

[Act_of_Reparation]

18. El Universal de Mexico has a bit on it, providing the quote in Spanish

Here

"El violencia en Mexico es un castigo del diablo."

Reuters produced a short bit where more of the speech is translated: Here.

[cbayer]

20. In context, this takes on a much more complicated meaning.

“Mexico,” said Francis, “is privileged in martyrdom, for recognizing and defending its Mother. And this you know very well. You will find Catholics, non-Catholics, and atheists in Mexico, but they are all ‘guadalupanos.’ That is, everyone feels like her child. Children of the one who brought the Savior, who destroyed the devil.”

“I believe the devil has made Mexico pay, right? And so all these things happen. You see that all through history it has been a center of serious conflicts. Who is to blame? The government? That is the easy solution, the easy answer. Governments are always to blame. Yes, the government. But everyone is somehow at fault, at least for not taking care of the suffering.”

“I know it’s very difficult to report a drug dealer,” Francis said. “Because it’s throwing your life away, a kind of martyrdom, right? It’s hard, but I think in situations like this, whether in Mexico or somewhere else, we all have to do our part. So to blame one sector, one person, one group, is childish.”

[okasha]

23. Yes, it does.

"Castigar" does mean "to punish," but it can also mean "to strike at"or "to take revenge on." The Spanish-language news report cited above interprets it to mean "asaltar," "to attack."

So what Francis actually said is that the devil (substitute "evil people" or "forces of evil" as necessary) is "making Mexico pay" for its loyalty to Our Lady of Guadalupe. Apart from the obvious religious context, Guadalupe represents Mexico as a nation, especially as a nation of mixed races. Sometimes her images replaces the eagle and serpent on representations of the Mexican flag. (And there's another layer of symbolism. In Aztec religion, the jaguar and the eagle were the most powerful spirits, and the first converts referred to Jesus and Mary as 'Cristo el tigre y la aguila madre"-- Christ the Jaguar and the Eagle Mother. And of course, it's Mary who is said to crush the serpent in Revelation and the eagle devouring the
snake on the Mexican flag.

So what the statement comes down to is basically this: Evil, in the concrete form of the drug cartels, is striking at all that is powerful for good in Mexico, and it is everyone's responsibily to fight it. Whether Mexicans acknowledge her religiously or politically, Guadalupe stands as a personification of that good and must be defended. All Mexicans are her children, "guadalupanos."

[skepticscott]

25. Too funny…and bullshit

Listen to yourself.."So what Francis actually said is that the devil (substitute "evil people" or "forces of evil" as necessary)

Sorry, but he can't have "actually said" all of those things. You're just shoving words in his mouth to satisfy your agenda and make what he said seem less despicable.

[trotsky]

43. That's the only goal.

Cover up for the bigot, desperately find some way to excuse him from the horrible things that come out of his mouth. Hatred toward homosexuals and transsexuals. Treating women as 2nd class citizens. Blaming the woes of an entire nation on a mythical being, warning against the "Mexicanization" of his homeland. Digusting, inexcusable bullshit spewing from this bigoted man, and there are DUers who are willing to go to bat for him every single time.

At least they expose their own agenda.

[cbayer]

35. I agree with your interpretation.

I did not understand the significance of Our lady of Guadalupe until this past year and his talking of that makes this a much more complex statement.

[edhopper]

24. I really wonder

If Mexican atheist feel they are the children of the savior's mother?

The whole Lady of Guadeloupe is such a hoax, I doubt many Mexican atheist buy into it.

[cbayer]

36. You opinion that the Lady of Guadeloupe is "such a hoax", is well, your opinion

There is an interesting mixture of indigenous and catholic beliefs here and the L of G plays an important role.

Even though surveys show that there is a decline in catholicism, the rituals, holy days and ceremonies remain an important part of the culture.

I don't think either of us has the data that would support whether you statements are true or false.

[Warren Stupidity]

41. Wait, you think it really happened?

Or is this just more of your ridiculous "you can't prove santa claus doesn't exist" nonsense.



Oddly sexual iconography surrounding the fairy tale.

[edhopper]

42. You really think Mexican atheists

think of themselves as the children of the Holy Virgin Mother of the Savior who battles the devil?

It's an inference on my part, of course, but having talked to many atheist from all of the world, I am highly dubious that Mexican atheist would think of themselves so.

And yes there is a mountain of evidence that the Our Lady of Guadalupe shroud is a fake.

It's not "my opinion" it is a conclusion based on the actually evidence instead of faith alone.

[okasha]

44. You're missing the point, ed.

Our Lady of Guadalupe transcended. her strictly religious significance and became a powerful symbol of Mexico and especially of mestizo Mexicans, when Hidalgo and Morelos led the 1810 rebellion that resulted in Mexican independence from Spain. She's a cultural and political symbol. It's not necessary to be religious or theist to accept that aspect of her, and the origin of the image is completely irrelevant in that context.

[edhopper]

48. I remain doubtful that

Mexican atheists embrace her and especially as the Pope stated, think of themselves as her children.

I would like to hear from Mexican atheists. But I will reserve my accepting the Popes opinion on this.

[cbayer]

64. I think that the people of Mexico are generally very family oriented,

have a great deal of allegiance to their country and share an identity which has some religious underpinnings, even if they are atheists.

I have met some, but they don't discard everything. Come spend a Dia de los muertos here and you will see how religious symbolism and ritual permeates the culture, even for those that consider themselves atheists.

Give me some links for that mountain of evidence. There is only opinion, there is not proof. I am personally very skeptical, but I really don't know.

[okasha]

21. Thank you for posting the link to the Spanish-language newsclip.

Cbayer is correct that the meaning of Francis' statement is more complex than the snippet quoted in the OP, but it's also clearer.

[skepticscott]

22. In the end, he's still saying

"The Devil is doing it to Mexico"

Nice try, okasha. I know "It's complicated" is one of your and cbayer's favorites apologist dodges, but in this case, your wish did not come true.

[enki23]

66. In this case, they're both true. It's complicated, and stupid.

True fact: "it's complicated, and stupid" also doubles as a facebook relationship status. Or would, if I had any say in things.

[Act_of_Reparation]

31. Subtlety is often lost in translation.

But whether you read "castigar" as punishment or revenge doesn't change the meaning of the Pope's statement radically.

To be clear, I didn't find anything particularly offensive about that part. Rather, I found his "all Mexicans are guadelupanos" bit much more distasteful.

[skepticscott]

32. And strange too, that the people in this thread

who are going to great lengths trying to argue that the pope didn't really mean what he was reported to have said, and this must be an error in translation or interpretation (since it doesn't fit their agenda), NEVER make the same argument when the pope's reported statement is something they like and that advances the schtick they're trying to peddle. In those cases, people like cbayer and okasha fall all over themselves praising the "change" and "progress" they claim Francis is bringing about, and never for an instant question whether he may have been misquoted or mistranslated.

[Act_of_Reparation]

58. Or the Charlie Hebdo fiasco.

Many were more than willing to condemn the magazine with little to no understanding of the French language, much lessFrench socio-political issues.

[okasha]

45. Please see my post 44 above.

Guadalupe has political and cultural significance beyond her religious meaning. She symbolizes Mexico. Mexican atheists can and do honor the freedom and justice she represents without accepting her as a religious figure.

[edhopper]

49. Do you have any data to back that up

any polls of Mexican atheist that say they accept that they are the children of the Holy Mother of the Savior as the pope says?
Or even that this deeply religious symbol (based on a hoax) is embraced by them.

Lot's of people in this country accept "In God We Trust" without thinking about the religious implications. But I can tell you, i haven't met many atheists who think it belongs.

[okasha]

50. Just keep pushing those goalposts around, ed.

Your first paragraph bears no resemblance at all to what I actually said.

I feel confident that I know more Mexican atheists than you do. One of them is a danzante who regularly performs in the plaza in front of the local cathedral on the Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe.

[edhopper]

51. It's nice you can

speak for Mexican atheists.

I'll wait for more confirmation than "You have a friend".

I am also glad you can tell how many atheists from other nations I know.

[Act_of_Reparation]

57. That may be the case for many.

But I doubt all of them do. And I don't think the cultural/political aspects of Guadalupe really fits into the Pope's message of infernal punishment.

[nilesobek]

27. Wouldn't "the devil" in this

situation be the ruthless cartels and their eager American market?

[okasha]

29. Of course it is.

[skepticscott]

33. Nice job of reading the pope's mind

Perhaps you can read mine too, and tell the room what I'm thinking about such a transparent, dishonest dodge in furtherance of your agenda.

[hrmjustin]

34. What agenda is that Scott?

[okasha]

47. He's flailing.

There's an obvious retort to his post, but I think I'll forgo it.

[mr blur]

70. No, he's right. You and your comedy partner are flailing. As ever.

[okasha]

71. So you answer the question.

What agenda?

[cbayer]

37. That and the corrupt government, tremendous poverty and failing infrastructure.

[nilesobek]

38. It's just difficult

for me to decide if that's what the Pope meant. Is there a raging supernatural force causing pain in Mexico? Or is the Pope trying to provide cover for the the church in Mexico? He was proclaiming that hatred of the church by Satan is causing the violence.Is he embarrassed about the violence in an overwhelmingly Catholic country?

[cbayer]

39. I agree that it is hard to really interpret.

My general sense is that he is telling Mexico that it's time to kick some butt and take back control from the forces that are corrupting things.

But it's not completely clear.

[okasha]

46. I think you're right.

I also think that the vast majority of North Americans don't have the tiniest clue about how bad the situation in Mexico actually is. I share a studio with a Mexican artist who has lost two brothers and a brother-in-law to the gangs. I helped raise funds to ransom another artist's father who had been kidnapped.

Francis is supporting the people who fight back against the gangs. A few months ago, lime growers in Central Mexico took up arms against the Templarios when the government couldn't/ wouldn't protect them. He's telling them to have hope and courage, and remember that Mexico had its origin in rebellion against a ruthless and violent colonial power.

For the ideological opportunists who see this occassion as merely another chance to slam the Pope, I have nothing but contempt.

[pinto]

55. Thanks for that real time, personal background to all of this.

[cbayer]

63. I agree. I think he is becoming increasingly aware of what is going on,

especially since his poorly thought out "mexicanization" statement.

It's bad and is starting to have an impact on tourism. A group of tourists were robbed at gunpoint in Espiritu Santu last weekend and grenades were found on the malecon in La Paz. Tourism is critical.

We have passed through some areas where the locals have taken up arms against the gangs. Gun control here is very, very strict, so doing this is a big deal.

Ignore the petty flailings. I just spend the weekend with a 7 and 10 year olds with more maturity that some of what goes on around here.

[skepticscott]

67. In spite of what one hears on MSM in the US, Mexico is very safe.

The violence is extremely localized and rarely random. It is mostly between the cartels and other gangs and local vigilantes. Or so a supposedly reliable source maintains.

And in any case, how bad it actually is isn't the point. It's who the pope is blaming and how, coming right on the heels of his bigoted comments about the "Mexicanization" of his home country of Argentina. All you're doing is inventing things that he didn't really say and trying to make it look like they came out of his mouth ("He's telling them to have hope and courage, and remember that Mexico had its origin in rebellion against a ruthless and violent colonial power."-a complete invention on your part, okasha). Well, the pope is not a ventriloquist dummy..he can speak for himself and his actual words can stand on their own without help from you.

As far as taking another opportunity to slam the pope, it's not our fault if superstition and bigotry come out every other time he opens his mouth. It's the people who defend that bigotry at every turn, on a progressive web site, who deserve contempt.

[Warren Stupidity]

40. He clearly states that a supernatural agent "the devil" is somehow involved.

Explaining away that nonsense is an exercise for others.

[Fumesucker]

54. No, actually it would be the politicians who put those cartels in business

We figured it out in only thirteen years with alcohol, trying to get rid of it causes more problems than the substance itself and the substance doesn't go away, it just gets adulterated and distributed through a violent black market.

When was the last time we saw a shootout between beer distributors?

[SummerSnow]

52. what??

[SummerSnow]

53. So, when is he going to Mexico to drive the devil out?

[pinto]

56. No clue. Call the Vatican if you want a papal itinerary.

Sorry to match snark with snark. Not the best approach to a discussion. So, what's your take or input on the thread here?

[trotsky]

60. My take is that there are a few vocal and dishonest individuals...

who are willing to go to great lengths to make excuses for a selectively xenophobic, misogynistic homophobe, instead choosing to lash out and make shit up to attack atheists on DU.

[cbayer]

72. Not sure, but I can say that his reception here would be unspeakably positive.

[AtheistCrusader]

59. Is it 'racked' or 'wracked'?

I'm of the opinion it's 'wracked'.


Racked is more emotional/intellectual grief, pain, or turmoil.
Synonyms: torture, pain, agony, tribulation, ordeal.

Wracked is the verb of wrecked, the actual action of wrecking, being literally torn apart, damaged, taking hits, etc.
Synonyms: damage, disaster, destruction


Aka; Wrack and Ruin.

[Act_of_Reparation]

61. We don't do definitions here, AC.

Words mean whatever we want them to mean at any given time.

Didn't you get the memo?

[AtheistCrusader]

62. Good point.

I'll go with what I 'feel' from now on.

[Warren Stupidity]

68. it appears to be either.

I didn't know that. The verb form of rack/wrack are identical while the noun forms aren't.

[AtheistCrusader]

69. English is... weird.

[enki23]

65. The devil is making people do evil to collectively punish people for having countrymen who do evil

Religion sure is the smart.