Legion of Christ: Pope Francis offers to forgive paedophile scandal order

[trotsky]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/30/legion-of-christ-pope-francis-offers-to-forgive-paedophile-scandal-order

Pope Francis has granted a “plenary indulgence”, or religious pardon, to the ultra-conservative Legion of Christ movement, mired in a paedophile scandal, provided its members perform acts of penance, Vatican Radio has said.

The Legion of Christ has for years been beset by accusations of sexual abuse. The order’s founder, Mexican-born Marcial Maciel, stepped down in 2005 amid allegations of paedophilia and fathering several children. He died in 2008.

In August the Chilean government decided to deport the Irish priest John O’Reilly, the local Legion head who was convicted of sexually abusing a young girl.

“After the huge scandal provoked by its hellish past” the Legion of Christ group “has begun a period of purification and renewal”, Vatican Radio said.

It's OK, everyone! The pope has forgiven them. Someone tell the victims, so they don't have to worry about the sins of their abusers anymore!

[skepticscott]

1. What's their "penance"?

Do they have to un-rape those kids?

No doubt our resident Catho-splainers will be by soon, to tell us how the "penance" will be far worse on those poor priests than being anally sodomized was for those kids.

[mr blur]

2. No penance - Blank Frank loves them despite their sins.

Anyway, who are we to judge, amirite?

[Cartoonist]

3. Once again proving that religion has no morality.

Commit whatever crimes or sins one wants. Jesus gives everyone a get out of Hell free card.

And if Jesus can't save you, then the Pope will.

Theists have the absurdity of asking atheists where we get our morals. Here's a clue, it ain't from religion.

[Igel]

6. Penance =/= "get out of Hell free card."

It's just greatly discounted.

The essence of zero tolerance is a lack of empathy and mercy or forgiveness.

It used to be that there was a way to pay one's debt for transgressions in a religious way or in a secular way, or even avoid having a debt laid against your account. At that point, we're supposed to forgive; empathy was always considered appropriate, and mercy in the face of remorse. So the two ways overlapped. Jean Valjean's crime is widely seen as forgivable, in fact there's often zero tolerance applied to those who fail to think it's not just forgiveable but obligatorily justifiable.

More and more empathy is relegated to one's own group. We feel empathy for a killer if he's of the right caste or has the right skin cast, otherwise not only is there no empathy but even after he's paid his secular debt he's not forgiven. In that context, moral arguments are meaningless because group-based arguments are the real deciding factor. If you're not in the right group, the one true approach is zero tolerance, no mitigating factors need apply. If you're in the right group, heck, you'd better have a ton of evidence to overcome even the meekest of mitigating factors and avoid the blindness produced by the latest formulation of Instant Outrage (tm).

Perhaps this kind of group-based reasoning has always been paramount, because within a group (as long as the group boundaries aren't threatened by the presence of an outsider) you still get moral reasoning applying in some form.

[Lordquinton]

4. Does that mean they're no longer going to hell?

I can't keep track of what mortals have power anymore.

[Dave_M]

5. The Legion of Christ...

has given a lot of money to the RCC over the years. I'm sure Blank Frank (thanks for that nickname wise person who thought it up) considered that penance enough for that corrupt bunch of pedophiles.

[Goblinmonger]

7. Because I know you can't see it, one of your favorite apologists

posted a "Dawkins said something naughty" post. I'm sure it has nothing to do with misdirecting from this.

[rug]

8. Ah, your takeaway from Dawkin's public transphobia is ""Dawkins said something naughty".

Nice minimizing.

Poor meta.

[Goblinmonger]

9. Please see my reply on that thread for my takeaway on what Dawkins said.

[rug]

10. I did. And then I read this.

[Goblinmonger]

11. Well let's talk about the bigger issue here, then

I will continue to say what I said about Dawkins when discussion him.

You have anything to say about the pope here? If we are going to judge something, this is pretty fucking shitty. Any chance you want to condemn your pope on this? Would love to see this. I mean, I'm expecting my Cathosplaining from you. NONE of which occurred in my response to what Dawkins said. I make no apologies for him. Can I expect the same from you?

How about all those times it was pointed out what the pope said about the LGBTQIA community? Can you give me a link to the times you said it was horrible just like I and other atheists said that about Dawkins? I'm not going to hold my breath because I know you never did. You just went full apologist mode and Cathosplained it all way.

Fuck that. You can get off your high horse and take one damn opportunity to call out the bigotry of your fucking pope. Your efforts to deflect from any criticism of Blank Frank with "oh, look what Dawkins did" are so glaringly obviously it is kind of sad and pathetic. Sure, what Dawkins said was stupid and shitty. I said as much on that thread.

Here's your chance. What do you think of Blank Frank offering up full forgiveness for the child rapists after they have been brought to the Vatican and protected?

[rug]

12. Let's not. You can dance with yourself.

[Goblinmonger]

13. So you aren't going to say anything bad about Pope Frank? I'm shocked.

Shocked, I tell you.

Thanks for proving my point.

[rug]

14. You misunderstand. I'm not going to say anything to you, goblinmonger.

You've talked oUt of the both sides of your mouth on this.

You've proven not a thing, except, depending on whom you're addressing, you say Dawkins is either "naughty" or a transphobe.

I see nothing productive from engaging in that horseshit.

[Goblinmonger]

15. I've never said he was a transphobe.

He might be, but we really don't know enough at this point. That he says they can self-identify as they wish seems to me that he isn't. He is just conflating sex with gender which is very harmful and gives a lot of fuel to the TERF assholes and other transphobes. That I know happened and that is what I called out.

You can respond to this OP, though.

[Rob H.]

18. "You can respond to this OP, though."

Not with anything but blatant attmpts to derail and deflect negative attention away from the Pope, he can't.

[rug]

19. Do you have something to say to me directly, Rob?

Or do you prefer to make snide remarks about posters indirectly?

Read this subthread again. Exactly who started the derailment by trying to make it about another DUer?

This meta is pathetic.

[Rob H.]

20. It stands to reason that if I did, I would

Nice to see that you didn't deny trying to deflect negative attention away from the Pope, though. That can at least be counted as progress of a sort.

Now do you have any other stupid questions for me, or are we done here?

Edit: ah, who am I kidding? Even if you do have more stupid questions, we're done.

[rug]

21. Yes, Why?

That is a pretty stupid way to spend your time.

[Goblinmonger]

22. Who made you the Religion bouncer?

What's with the tough guy facade? If someone has something to say to you, I'm sure they will. Like I am now. If they don't, they won't. You aren't the center of the universe, rug. Sorry.

[Yorktown]

24. Are there religion bouncers around?

Just asking.

[Warren Stupidity]

27. nah just holy rollers

[rug]

30. When you mention me indirectly, goblinmonger, I will respond directly.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=216607

Goes for him as well.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=216713

You don't like it?



It has more to do with addressing weasely meta-gossip (look no further than just above) than being a Religion bouncer.

[Goblinmonger]

31. You can respond whenever you like; when did I indicate differently.

That's the magic of the intertubes. I can say what I want to whomever I want, and they can say whatever they want to whomever they want. It's wonderful.

But you came in all chest puffed out like someone needs to give a flying fuck about what you think. Which is another level of magic to the intertubes. Nobody has to give a shit about you even if you act like they do.

[rug]

32. Of course I can. And I will.

In the meantime, you really need to check your perceptions.

Not to mention your projections.

But you came in all chest puffed out like someone needs to give a flying fuck about what you think. Which is another level of magic to the intertubes. Nobody has to give a shit about you even if you act like they do.

[Goblinmonger]

33. I'm happy for you.

But don't get all hurt when nobody gives a shit that you want them to reply directly to you.

[rug]

34. Frankly, there are some whom I have no interest to engage.

But I will of they post utter bullshit or choose to talk about me indirectly, as if they're sitting in a middle school cafeteria.

Bye.

[Goblinmonger]

35. Ah

that's cute

[rug]

36. Scouring two years worth of threads to attempt an inapt point isn't.

Knock yourself out.

[Goblinmonger]

37. It literally took me 30 seconds with the search bar

rug passive aggressive Pretty simple search.

Hardly something that knocked me out nor was it "scouring."

If you weren't so brightline in your condemnation of people for things, this wouldn't come back and bite you in the ass.

But since you kicked the nest, here are a couple more examples of you condemning being the passive aggressive person you just were:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=1725
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5726925

And LOTS of people call you out on your own passive aggressiveness. It was an interesting search for me to go back to. Thanks for that.

[rug]

38. Now post the three posts I responded to.

While you're at it, plug "goblinmonger" into your query.

[Goblinmonger]

39. Just like our discussion about posting, I'm the boss of me.

I know I've called you passive aggressive a whole bunch of times. Because you are

Again, the magic of the intertubes means you can search for whatever you want.

[rug]

40. Then you shold fire yourself. What I replied to in those posts is clear, cowardly passive-aggression

Since you now demur, the links you did post lead right to them.

Not that anyone with a modicum of sense would bother reading them. But I'm sure you can find a protected bubble somewhere on the internet where there are some who think it's the height of discourse.

[Goblinmonger]

41. And your post that I replied to was cowardly passive-aggressive

And since I know you hate people that are passive-aggressive, I thought I'd tell you so in your own words. See what I did there.

I am far from demurring.

[rug]

42. You're ill-equipped to do so.

[Goblinmonger]

43. I am mortally wounded.

Whatever shall I do.

[rug]

44. QED

[Goblinmonger]

45. Still doesn't mean what you think it means.

But keep trying, sunshine, because you're special.

[rug]

46. "sunshine"

Even George Raft would demand that be cut from the script.

[trotsky]

28. Oh Koresh.

Because Dawkins tweeting something is exactly the same thing as Pope Bigot CXLIII leading a church of a billion.

Such impotent rage. *sigh*

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

16. Act of Penance?

Whacking off their willies? Falling on swords?

[uriel1972]

17. baby steps?... nt

[AtheistCrusader]

47. Maybe let's leave babies out of this one for now. I think they've suffered enough.

[Yorktown]

23. Funny how no Catholic comes forward here to defend the Pope on this

I mean, the Pope gives a 'get away from jail with a slap on the wrist' card.

Sexual relations with a person underage is a crime.

The Pope gave a blanket religious pardon to an institution whose members committed crimes.

I'd like to see a Roman Catholic condemn the Pope or explain his actions. Anyone?

[mr blur]

25. Don't hold your breath. nt

[trotsky]

29. Because according to "good" Christians, the only thing that really matters...

is getting forgiveness from gawd. The children who were scarred for life? Meh. Popey said it's all good.

[longship]

26. And then there's a tobacco stench in the Speaker's Office.