Lutherans shouldn't have received Holy Communion at Vatican, says Catholic spokesman

[trotsky]

http://www.christiantoday.com/article/lutherans.shouldnt.have.received.holy.communion.at.vatican.says.catholic.spokesman/77890.htm

The Lutheran bishop who received Communion from a Catholic priest in the Vatican ought not to have been offered it and should have refused, according to a spokesman for the Catholic diocese of Helsinki.

The Lutherans from Finland, led by Bishop Samuel Salmi of Oulu, were part of a delegation in Rome for the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity. They indicated by crossing their right arms over their chests that they should not be offered the sacrament at Mass in the Basilica, but the priests went ahead and gave it to them regardless.

Bishop Salmi said the Catholic priests had known who the Lutherans were, so they had not been invited to partake by mistake.

...

While Lutherans and Catholics have seen a significant rapprochement during the last few years, traditionalist Catholics have been angered by what they see as too many concessions to the Lutheran tradition.

News that matters! I remember a teacher explaining to us in some class that because he was Catholic and his wife Methodist, they couldn't do communion together. I was a Lutheran at the time, and I must admit that was one of the biggest "WTF?" moments that I can look back on and recognize it helped push me to atheism. Such fuss over absolutely nothing.

[HockeyMom]

1. How about a Catholic Funeral for a Lutheran?

My daughter's MIL (staunch Catholic) did that for her Lutheran MIL. First, why was she doing that? Shouldn't it be her husband's obligation as the son of the deceased to do that? I know the woman was not religious so why choose a religion for her ceremony? Have a non-sectarian ceremony. Was she going to Hell if she didn't have a Catholic ceremony? Maybe her son didn't care but I know I (agnostic) was furious when somebody baptized my dead grandfather (agnostic) into the Mormon Church. Choosing a religion should be for LIVING people, not dead ones.

[exboyfil]

2. The Vatican is right

I will not take communion at a Catholic church for that reason (I am a Lutheran) even if it was offered. The two faiths have a fundamental doctrinal difference in communion. That doesn't mean we can't worship together, and definitely we can work together. I have been to many masses with my BIL and SIL. I don't feel excluded since I understand the fundamental differences between the two communions.

[cleanhippie]

9. Doctrinal differences? Such as?

[exboyfil]

10. Transubstantiation

[cleanhippie]

11. What are the differences?

[exboyfil]

19. Here is my understanding

Catholic Transubstantiation -

Catholics hold to the term “transubstantiation” to describe the reality of Christ’s presence in the Eucharist. They borrow terms from the philosophy of Aristotle to express the belief that during the Eucharist the substance of bread and wine is changed into the substance of the body and blood of Christ, while the accidents of bread and wine (what they look, feel and taste like) remain the same as they were before.
http://bustedhalo.com/questionbox/what-exactly-is-the-difference-between-catholic-and-lutheran-belief-in-communion-they-sound-pretty-alike-to-me

What does the Lutheran church believe about
the Lord’s Supper?
The Lutheran church believes, teaches and confesses that
the Lord’s Supper is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus
Christ,under the bread and wine,given to us Christians to eat
and to drink.We hold that the bread and the wine in the
Supper are the true body and blood of Christ and that these are
given and received into the mouths of all who commune.
Those who believe the promise: “Given and shed for you for
the forgiveness of sins,”receive forgiveness of sins,life and salvation.
This promise, along with the bodily eating and drinking,
is the main thing in the Sacrament.
The Lutheran church rejects and condemns incorrect
understandings of the Lord’s Supper,such as the view that the
sacrifice of the Mass delivers man from his sins,or that the
substance of the consecrated bread and wine is actually changed into the body and blood of Christ.We also reject and
condemn the view that in the Lord’s Supper the true body and
blood of Christ is not received by the mouth of the communicants,
under the bread and wine,but is received only spiritually
in the heart by faith,or that the bread and wine are only symbols
of the far-distant body and blood of our Lord.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwjm9cnugcvKAhWFSyYKHbDHDwAQFggkMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lcms.org%2Fdocument.fdoc%3Fsrc%3Dlcm%26id%3D1097&usg=AFQjCNFTqwnJ2kCo9Owq8RG3s_8vS92YRw&cad=rja

[cleanhippie]

26. Thanks for that.

Seems like pretty petty differences to me. Looks like one says 'It's metaphor, but it's real', and the other says 'It's real, but it's metaphor'.

Either way, it seems silly and absurd, especially when argued over like this.

[Dale Neiburg]

3. It may have changed since my Lutheran days....

but back then LCA (now ELCA) Lutherans weren't allowed to take communion in a Missouri Synod Lutheran church.

[woodsprite]

4. I go to a Presbyterian church where all are welcome at the communion table.

The only thing asked is that you have a belief in God.

[Cartoonist]

5. Communion fraud

I'm an atheist, but there is nothing stopping me from impersonating a Catholic and receiving communion. No believer ID required.

[Lordquinton]

6. So much for interfaith outreach

I mean, they still believe that transubstantiation trumps gluten intolerance, so they clearly think there's more to the whole thing than just some bread and wine.

[Nitram]

7. A Catholic wafer can't transsubstantiate on a Lutheran tongue. All is not lost.

Last edited Fri Jan 29, 2016, 03:11 PM - Edit history (1)

[trotsky]

8. Yeah, it seems I've heard many tell me right here in this group...

that the various specifics of beliefs, the ones like this, truly do not matter, and that no one really pays them any mind. I'm sure it must matter to gawd which magic spell is cast over the wafer before you eat it. Somehow.

[rug]

12. And?

[Leontius]

14. Do you believe that accepting transubstantion is more important than

believing in the real presence of Christ in communion?

[rug]

15. They both concern the Real Presence. The difference is in the precision of the definition.

If I recall my 16th century history correctly, transubstantiation wasn't defined until the Councill of Trent, in response to the Lutheran exegesis of consubstantiation.

[Leontius]

16. Do you think the precision of the definition is more important than the belief

in the real presence of Christ?

[rug]

17. Not in the least. The Orthodox have always had a vague, mystic understanding of the sacrament.

I will say that the reason for the RCC prohibition against open communion now has less to do with any definition of the hypostasis and the nature of the Eucharist than it does with the concept of communion, that the participants are indeed in communion with one another. That's why, in Christianity, ecumenism and unity is an important goal.

[Leontius]

22. Then don't you think that the RCC could advance that principle by dropping the

We are the one true Church and all others are just a reflection of the Church of Christ stance. This is still the Vatican position isn't it?

[rug]

23. No, because that implies all others are false.

The phrase used is the "Fullness of the Faith". It does hold that it is the Church founded by Jesus, has continued in an unbroken line, and is the fullest expression of his message. As a matter purely of ecclesiology, it's a persuasive argument.

[Leontius]

25. I'm no credentialed expert in Church history but from what I have studied

the argument is well less than persuasive, at best its a 50/50 deal.

[rug]

13. Meanwhile, in substantive news . . . .

Pope Francis greets people during a visit to Christuskirche, a parish of the German Evangelical Lutheran Church, in Rome in this Nov. 15, 2015, file photo. The Vatican announced Jan. 25 that the pope will visit Sweden Oct. 31 to participate in an ecumenical event in Lund marking the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation. (CNS photo/Angelo Carconi, EPA)

Pope plans to visit Sweden to commemorate Reformation anniversary

Monday, January 25, 2016

http://www.cdom.org/CatholicDiocese.php?op=Article_Pope+plans+to+visit+Sweden+to+commemorate+Reformation+anniversary

[Angry Dragon]

18. your Jesus is different than my Jesus so you can not eat his body and drink his blood

[Goblinmonger]

20. Though I think it's all silly, I don't do communion anymore

I don't believe it and I think it would be disrespectful. I have been at Catholic weddings and funerals where Lutheran relatives overtly said that they were going to take communion even though they knew they weren't really invited. Seems kind of shitty.

Again, I see it now as angels on the head of a pin, but it's their party. No skin off my back to respect it while I'm there.

[struggle4progress]

21. Different people have different ideas about what matters.

There's plenty of variation even within denominations.

I once wandered into a German Catholic church and found the choir belting out Luther's "Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott"

[ButterflyBlood]

24. Wouldn't have to worry about me: I'd never take communion at a Catholic church

Even if it was "allowed". I was raised Catholic but ceased taking communion as a teenager once I realized all that transubstantiation stuff. I actually effectively converted to Lutheranism (my father's side of the family is Lutheran) around this time and then to non-denominational Christianity after college.

I'll still take communion at a Lutheran church or most others. But I never would at a Catholic or Orthodox. I'd be saying something via implication that's a bridge too far for me.

[Gore1FL]

27. Worse case, it won't count.

If religion concentrated on helping people than wasting time on stupid dogma concerning who gets wine it might be worth more than less-than-nothing.