Religion
Related: About this forumDelver Rootnose
(250 posts)As you know equating any religion as a whole with the bad actors that claim to act in its name is fundamentally unfair. Do we blame all Christians for the religious based Christian fighting throughout the ages or the Buddhists for thier religious based fighting in other places.
It's just bigotry plain and simple.
And I'm not at all religious and am very skeptical and distrustful of religion especially organized religion.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)No one here is blaming ALL MUSLIMS for the actions of some terrorists.
But can we not analyze Islam and look at verses from the Quran and various Hadiths that can be argued to justify violence? Christianity has the same problem with the bible. Liberal believers just say "well that part isn't valid anymore" as if that takes care of the problem. No, the problem is that they're saying divine inspiration and guidance can be found in that book. But instead what it really is, is a collection of things human beings have written down. Deeply flawed and ignorant human beings. By recognizing it as such, as a work of ONLY human beings, with no input or anything from a god, we can help neutralize the power it has to create monsters.
Delver Rootnose
(250 posts)...but this is not what this cartoon is doing. It is straight up religious bigotry. And since one of the characters in it is Jesus as I see it it is also pernicious and incorrect religious superiority.
It is not a good faith effort to discuss these issues.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)And please explain *exactly* what makes you think this cartoon is "religious bigotry." Be precise.
Fix The Stupid
(947 posts)Can you explain this to me?
Yes, I do think less of anyone who espouses beliefs in fairy tales, prophets, zombies, talking snakes, walking on water, etc, etc. Why can I not think less of people who count themselves as believers in this nonsense? And not be labeled a "bigot"? It is not 'bigotry', it is common sense.
What about Scientology? I am supposed to respect people that believe in Xenu? E-Meters?
What about "political bigotry"?
Isn't this entire site guilty of being 'bigots' toward republicans???
Please don't say, "well, that's different"...as an answer...
Delver Rootnose
(250 posts)...there isn't anything after death any more than they can prove there is. You can't even forumulate the parameters of a proper test. You just assume you are correct because of lack of evidence for lack of a proper test and invalidate anything they provide as proof. Just like they do when they try to prove the unprovable and miss the whole point of faith. Hell at least high energy physicists can formulate tests to back up thier speculations.
Sheesh atheists who act like you make it real hard on the rest of us.
Fix The Stupid
(947 posts)Nothing you wrote has anything to do with my post.
Todays_Illusion
(1,209 posts)Bigotry is not a general condemnation of all or even a specific religion.
An example of religious bigotry would be targeting a specific group for discrimination, such as calling for laws to ban all people from a particular religion from sending their children to public schools. Or claiming and believing that all members of a particular belief, are violent.
Trump's call to ban all Muslims from immigrating to the U.S. was a religious bigoted remark.
Fix The Stupid
(947 posts)And I noticed you didn't touch on the political bigotry angle...why not?
"Or claiming and believing that all members of a particular belief, are violent. "
Who said that? Strawman...
In order for someone to count themselves as part of a religion they have to believe in some aspects of
said religion, no?
So, if someone tells me they are a scientologist, I CAN roll my eyes and think, "Geez, Xenu, E-meters, etc, etc..Lame..."...that is NOT bigotry. Just substitute "any religion" for "scientology" and it's the same...
Can someone post on this site with a username like "trumpforpresident" or "republicans4ever" and be discriminated against and immediately tombstoned? Why yes, they can and will be...(and should be)
That, according to you is "bigotry", no???
Todays_Illusion
(1,209 posts)presentation. The subliminal message is "Muslim Terrorists, it is true."
My corporate career was/is in marketing or messaging if you wish.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)You can't explain it, it just is.
Understood.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,307 posts)Clooney, a barrister who specializes in international law and human rights law, plans to seek an International Criminal Court investigation and prosecution of crimes against the Yazidi ethnic and religious minority, the New York Times reports. Nobel Peace Prize nominee Nadia Murad is one of the survivors who will be represented.
The European Parliament, the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, the U.S. government and the U.K. House of Commons have all recognized that there is a genocide being perpetrated by IS (the Islamic State) against the Yazidis in Iraq, Clooney said in a statement to the Times. How can it be that the most serious crimes known to humanity are being carried out before our eyes but are not being prosecuted by the International Criminal Court in The Hague?
...
ISIS has targeted the Yazidi population of about 230,000 people because they do not practice Islam. In 2014, over 5,200 Yazidis were abducted, most of them women, and over 400,000 Yazidis have been forced from their homes. ISIS has also condoned the systemic rape and sexual enslavement of non-Muslim women. Last October, a 20-year-old Yazidi woman spoke at a UN panel about an American ISIS fighter holding her as a sex slave.
http://time.com/4363578/amal-cloone-yazidi-genocide-survivors-isis/
These are the acts of human rights abusers and terrorists acting in the name of Islam. This is what the cartoon is about, and your claim that talking about it is 'a bigoted message' is the reaction of Mohammed in the final frame - "shut up!".
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)which is the point of the cartoon.
Is there another religion today that has 100,000 extremists attacking villages, killing by the tens of thousands, blowing up innocent people? The crusades of the 1300s do not count.
Delver Rootnose
(250 posts)...to blame a religion for the actions of people using the religion for cover. These people are not killing or raping or pillaging for the sake of the religion. They are not true believers. They are using the religion as a tool just as they would use a rousing song or a well oiled gun.
And you are doing the same. Using the fear of thier religion as an excuse to extract some political point about stability in the region
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)if the text say;
death to homosexuals
death to apostates
death to ..
where is the confusion as to what people in the religion will ultimately believe. If leaders of the religion would come out and say that other religions deserve respect, gay people deserve respect, then you can argue this is not in the religion.
when salman rusdie was condemned to death for writing a book, did any major countries or Imams come out and preach forgiveness and tolerance? Did anyone say that it's a matter between Rusdie and God?
Delver Rootnose
(250 posts)...motivation of the current PP shooter or the murder of DR tiller or any number of other murderous religious people some how you can wave you hand and say 'but they were just psychos' but don't allow moderate Muslims the same freedom of dissacociation from thier psychos or criminals or political warlords or dictators.
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)of individuals following the same ideal.
Timothy McVeigh was one crackpot. I don't recall ten thousand others joining him to start a caliphate.
A HERETIC I AM
(24,366 posts)(Sound of a nail being hit firmly on the head)
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)an unequivocal condemnation of radical ideals will save lives.
braddy
(3,585 posts)Muslim, switched from wealthy merchant into a war leader committing terrorism and mass beheadings, sex slavery, pedophilia, etc. the practices of modern day Isis.
Delver Rootnose
(250 posts)...to complex problem make you look stupid.
braddy
(3,585 posts)AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)It's only complex because of theology...that useless charade that tries to make ancient superstitions relevant and viable centuries after they should have gone in the mythology ben.
Religion isn't complex. It's ridiculous.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)Who are you to question their belief? They say they are Muslims. They say Islam motivates them. They recruit via Islamic institutions. They attack targets based on religious differences, including other interpretations of Islam. Who made you an Imam to say they are wrong, or lying, in that interpretation? There are millions of Muslims leading peaceful normal lives who think they interpret Islam correctly. There are millions leading exemplary noble lives claiming the same, and there are millions leading vicious homicidal lives claiming the same; almost all of all three being Muslims by ancestry, birth, education and culture. How dare you say they are not Muslims just because they are acting unpleasantly?
Delver Rootnose
(250 posts)...but you are arguing the falicy of homogeneity. All Muslims are not the same. To blame someone who identifies as a Muslim for the actions of another who identifies as a Muslim is the essence of religious bigotry. Just like I would not blame a random Christian for the actions of the kiddie diddling priests or the lords army or the PP shooter. I would also not damn the whole religion based on the actions of a sect. I could damn Christians based on the actions of conservatives sects of the Christ church of later day saints etc,
And there is a religious complonent to the fighting but it is only part, not the totality, of the reasons for war.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)You charge me with this, as all wannabe apologists do to any criticism:
you are arguing the falicy of homogeneity. All Muslims are not the same.
I of course said exactly the opposte in the very post to which you replied!
There are millions of Muslims leading peaceful normal lives who think they interpret Islam correctly. There are millions leading exemplary noble lives claiming the same, and there are millions leading vicious homicidal lives claiming the same;
There is not the slightest implication of the stupid strawmen of which you accuse me - I challenge you to cite the most damning. Where exactly did I blame all Muslims? Cite again. What I DO blame is the interpretation and motivation of Islam by SOME NOT ALL SOME Muslims, and unlike apologists I don't pretend that stops them from being real Muslims genuinely believing Islam calls for and justifies their actions.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)It should be very easy to say "No, you're not, and here's why" and have that be the end of the discussion. Why isn't it? It's because there are nasty bits in the foundational documents of the Abrahamic religions - because they were all written by flawed and primitive human beings with absolutely no input from any gods. But as long as the documents are held in a high regard by tolerant, liberal believers just like the intolerant, reactionary ones - it's going to be be difficult if not impossible to make any progress against religious violence. One group says "take this part literally, but not this part" and the other group just flips the parts around. Neither is any more right or wrong than the other, from an objective standpoint.
I think Christianity, and even Judaism, have the potential to be just as brutal and violent - and their pasts clearly indicate they could. From the stories in the Old Testament of slaughtering entire peoples, including their babies and livestock - to parables in the New Testament featuring righteous judgment, the condoning of slavery, and eternal punishment. There's so much horrible stuff in there.
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)is wrong, you do not kill people.
I don't recall this being done.
Delver Rootnose
(250 posts)...the time just google it. Every time the why don't moderate Islamists condem action X stories come out it is pointed out that they are but are being ignored by the media to other reasons.
Your lack of knowing about them does not mean it is not happening.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)There are verses that advocate peace and tolerance.
But there are other verses that advocate violence and death.
Which ones are the "real" religion? There is no definite answer.
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)There are many Muslims who truly do want peace, who appreciate secular governments, and want to live in an open society. Just like there are Christians and Jews who want the same.
But there are also members of those religions who want the opposite. And the thing is, they can generally find just as many holy verses that support their beliefs as the liberals can to support theirs. As I said, all their "holy" texts are deeply flawed and contain disturbing amounts of anti-human sentiments.
The liberal believers desperately want to validate their religious beliefs by keeping the holy book held in high regard. The problem is, the nasty stuff gets a free ride when they do that. Yes I am thankful they repudiate those passages, but they just don't get it.
rug
(82,333 posts)Good job, trotsky!
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)People are people, there will be good, bad, and in between.
However, a lot depends on the written word and text, and examples that a society puts together when trying to understand a religion. In Christianity, there is forgiveness, and statements like: "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone", "love thy neighbor, as you would yourself". Now contrast that with the Islamic sayings (I'm not going to write them so as not to offend) that seems to be that only islam is the true religion and all others are false. That people doing certain things like homosexuality, adultery, converting to another religion are all worthy of death. Is this not what is written in the religion? I don't think its interpretation, I think its literal. The only question is how fervently a practitioner will believe and act in the literal meaning.
Take 2 people who are about the same and put them through the two belief systems, what's going to happen?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)that it wasn't "the only true religion and all others false." It's a religious thing, it's not an Islam thing. Islam just hasn't had as long to "bake" as the other Abrahamic faiths. But holding religion and religious beliefs in high regard, as special and above what humans figure out on their own, is what's going to cause this every time.
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)A HERETIC I AM
(24,366 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)whatthehey
(3,660 posts)and say their interpretation is the correct one.
Delver Rootnose
(250 posts)...or Afghanistan or Iraq or was that too long ago to count.
cyndensco
(1,697 posts)Thank goodness.
rug
(82,333 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)That's the entire point of this cartoon, going over your head.
Delver Rootnose
(250 posts)...you have some moral or mental superiority over me but you don't. I understand it well. And I understand that you are probably an atheist trying make all religions look bad by using this bigoted cartoon. But it doesn't. You Are transparent in using its bigotry to try to make a point.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)I'm not sure you know what that means.
Delver Rootnose
(250 posts)...ascribing the motivations of a group onto an individual of said group or the motivations of group based on the actions of an individual.
But since you seem to fancy yourself some great sage and importer of wisdom on the lesser beings please explain your definition of bigotry and how this cartoon fits into that framework. Mmmmm
Or you could just make yet another vapid comment.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Delver Rootnose
(250 posts)...oh wise and powerful oz. since you are so bright it should be easy to explain it in simple clear terms.
Or you could just deploy another dismissive one liner.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)The point seems painfully obvious to most.
Delver Rootnose
(250 posts)...you can't even though it is painfully simple and obvious to most. Then the flaw is with you because understand it fine.
Delver Rootnose
(250 posts)....this is supposed to be a democratic site where hating on people is not a good thing. Heck next thing you know you guys will be making trumps arguments about banning Muslims from the US for him.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)skepticscott
(13,029 posts)Was all about. Are you going to start accusing us of anti-Republican bigotry? Or are you practicing the same kind of double standard that you're accusing everyone else here of?
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)Attributing the motivations and actions of a group or members of a group to the explicit dictates of the foundational documents of that group, when they say explicitly that they are acting because of, and in accordance with those dictates, is what's happening here.
In this room, if you aspire to be smug, self-righteous and condescending, you might first want to try being right. We've heard all of your apologist blather and accusations of "bigotry" more times than we can count. But if you want to be the next intellectual piñata in here, feel free.
Delver Rootnose
(250 posts)...foundational documents of the Christian church?? And there are many people intreperting both the documents of Christianity and Islam differently. The bigotry comes in when you posit the argument that because one group of radical Islamists reads them as justifying violence that all people who call themselves followers of Islam necessarily interpret them the same.
And when you point out that radical Christians have used the bible to justify thier murderous actions you say 'oh they are just crazy' or they don't represent Christianity or make arguments of scale. The bigotry is holding Muslims to a higher standard than you do Christians or any other religion or frankly even atheists.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)Then there is no bigotry here, because no one here is "positing" that. And yet you keep repeating it as if someone were actually making that claim. Wonder why?
And when you point out that radical Christians have used the bible to justify thier murderous actions you say 'oh they are just crazy' or they don't represent Christianity or make arguments of scale.
I challenge you to show me where anyone in this thread has done that. Put up or admit this is bullshit.
Delver Rootnose
(250 posts)40 and 31 and 64 for starters.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)Does someone claim that all Muslims have the same violent interpretation of the Koran? And can you argue that those Muslims who don't espouse violence when their religion is insulted are acting because of it, rathet than in spite of it?
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)Not all religions are the same.
Delver Rootnose
(250 posts)Mayan were a bit before my time. But in regards to Scientology, yea I would argue the same thing.. Especially for the practioners rather than the leadership. Each is entitled to be evaluated on their own individual actions. Just like I'm not going to damn all Catholics because of kiddie diddling priests or the officials that covered it up. And frankly the leadership of Scientology is far more doctrinally homogeneous than Islam or even the Catholic Church.
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)homosexuals
adulterers
trying to leave the religion
let's not even talk about cartoons.
Also, when the religion says it is the only true religion, and all others should be converted or killed.
How is that moderation and what are the subtle nuances in that religion?
Delver Rootnose
(250 posts)...why don't you ask a Christian minister.
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)Delver Rootnose
(250 posts)...haven't gotten out much. There was just an article the other day about one endorsing trump for president.
Robby Gallaty or pastor berzins. I can google more of you like.
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)Delver Rootnose
(250 posts)...and we are supporting him through the first admendment and the tax code. And just because we still are an orderly society does not mean that they are not saying it. The only difference is in current day Iraq the political powers use it to rule, same goes for Saudi Arabia. Which is ironic because with out US support the house of saud would fall and Hussein, for an evil a git as he was, kept the extremists under control until of course we bombed the shit out of his country based on a lie and allowed anything to rise up.
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)I'm wasting my time.
good bye.
Delver Rootnose
(250 posts)...they saudies are providing the money for daash for political reasons.
But the issue is complex and you don't want to address the complexity you want a simple demon to shake your finger at and scream EEEEEEVIL. You want to damn a religion of billions for the actions of hundereds or thousands and compleatly ignore that every religion has been used by unscrupulous people to get and retain power. There are damn few true believers out there and they are usually are the first ones sacrificed by the ones exploiting religion.
Just because Islam is being used as a tool in the political wars being fought currently does not mean it is any better or worse than Christianity or any other religion, for fuck sake if you don't believe me go reread the Old Testament and don't just gloss over the slavery or the daughter selling or the arguments about the guilt of a woman being raped not yelling out in a city vs the country. Or that all a rapist has to do to make it ok is pay off the man/owner and marry her.
You want simple solutions to complex geo political problem long time in the making but complexity hurts your head so let's make it easy blame the Muslims they are eeeeevil after all aren't they.
This is why I hate religion especially organized religion. Use it to motivate to kill use it to motivate to damn a whole group. Easy answers to complex problems all around. We all can do it.
yurbud
(39,405 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)yurbud
(39,405 posts)yurbud
(39,405 posts)MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)how many minorities are killed in Pakistan?
Killing is not acceptable regardless of who's doing it.
yurbud
(39,405 posts)If killing is not acceptable regardless of who's doing it, than killing even more to punish a country for killing done by its leader is nuts.
But that's not why we are doing anything over there, it's an excuse.
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)Would you like me to give you suggestions?
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)Many Muslims have their own particular problems with freedom. Not all nations are the same.
But to consistently act superior and condemn Muslims for their alleged tendency for violence when Americans have them beat in that category, is just plain old bigotry.
yurbud
(39,405 posts)stop or you figure out a way that they deserve it.
That's what Muslim bashing is all about.
lexington filly
(239 posts)I think good righteous Muslims just want people to distinguish between fanatical crazy murdering Islamists and the vast majority who practice their religion in peace. Kind of like how we distinguish crazy soul-murdering Catholics who terrorize and abuse children and teens by sexually assaulting them, the corrupt bishops and institutions who enable and cover it up from the good righteous Catholics who practice their religion in peace. Neither Muslims nor Catholics want to be stereotyped with broad brushes.
Todays_Illusion
(1,209 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Oh for christ sake! They don't "cause" bigotry.
Ridiculous.
Ignoring truths help "cause' bigotry.
(Rug will now post some bizarre and "superior" reply. He loves to get the last word in!)
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Todays_Illusion
(1,209 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)yurbud
(39,405 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)yurbud
(39,405 posts)When our policy wasn't consistently "kill them all" as Hitler's was with the Jews, but we still managed to kill and displace a lot.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)yurbud
(39,405 posts)and demonizing them to make it easier to support or at least ignore?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Does that mean we advocate killing them?
Iggo
(47,549 posts)yurbud
(39,405 posts)Demonizing their religion makes that a lot more palatable to some people.
But okay.
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)yurbud
(39,405 posts)drones to kill one suspected terrorist?
Or countries like Libya and Syria, where we back Islamic extremists to take out secular governments our government doesn't like?
MadDAsHell
(2,067 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)And it's no surprise at all.
MadDAsHell
(2,067 posts)There is nothing racist, bigoted, or otherwise to acknowledge that while nearly all religions have been used as an excuse to kill, there is clearly one that stands out today in its viciousness, callousness, and frequency, not to mention its treatment of women or anyone viewed as "undesirable."
Alot of people, especially on DU, are extremely uncomfortable with that concept due to their manic fear of being labeled racist, bigoted, or the like. So they hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil. It's easier to ignore it, than it is to say out loud something they're uncomfortable even internally acknowledging. I've even seen people, who I would consider model citizens in terms of their advocacy for women, completely avoid the topic of the treatment of women in Islam because their fear of being labeled a racist (which is stupid considering Islam isn't a race) is far greater than their fear of allowing women to be oppressed.
What's classic is the comparisons to the Crusades. Yeah, killings thousands of years ago by uneducated, unenlightened people are a reasonable rational for killing in 2016.
If you believe that, then you clearly believe that Muslims are similarly as uneducated and unenlightened as the Christians were during the Crusades, and thus they should be "excused" when they commit violent behavior (and if you think Muslims are uneducated or unenlightened, then you really ARE a bigot).
Delver Rootnose
(250 posts)....the lords army in Africa, or the singaleese Buddhists in Sri Lanka or the Buddhists in Myanmar not to mention the Cristians killing people at abortion clinics in the US or any number of Christians in the US military raining death on people called 'collateral damage' due to the belief that is Islam that is causing these wars and not the other way around. Warlords and dictators etc using religion to justify actions they would take even absent religion,
MadDAsHell
(2,067 posts)But to pretend that mass rapes, mass beheadings, etc. are the same as a single "Christian" psycopath killing an abortion doctor, simply because equating the two makes you more comfortable and makes you feel less bigoted, is ridiculous.
Delver Rootnose
(250 posts)...when a Christian does it he is just a psychopath but when a Muslim does it is an endictment of his whole religion. And like I said the lords army did lots of raping and using child soilders justified by thier belief in God but everyone seems to be able to admit they don't represent Christianity any more than the killings in Ireland represented religion. Just like those situations the religion was and is being used for non religious political reasons. Just like daash and other violent people using Islam as a justification.
braddy
(3,585 posts)and it is an example that Isis and Al Qaeda, and radical Islam follows.
The excesses of the Roman Catholic church came centuries after Christ and his followers, and it came from being a church created by the government of the Roman empire and connected to later governments.
When you want to fix a Christian you take him back to the root of Jesus and the New Testament, when you want to fix a radical Muslim, you try to take him away from emulating Mohammed and taking the Koran seriously.
The world would not be under siege from Islam if millions of it's followers in diverse nations, and of all races and ethnicities, were not finding the very same instructions in the Koran itself.
Delver Rootnose
(250 posts)...trumps proposed policy of banning Muslim from coming into the US, how about refugees?.
braddy
(3,585 posts)Delver Rootnose
(250 posts)...What are you here for if not to argue a point.
braddy
(3,585 posts)and not actually responding to their posts to you.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)No one here is claiming that when a Xstian does that he's just a psychopath. His religion is just as much to blame.
Ascribing the attitudes and vapid mouthings of fundy apologists to the people here smacks of bigotry, by your definition.
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)Todays_Illusion
(1,209 posts)Last edited Fri Jun 10, 2016, 10:24 AM - Edit history (1)
gut feeling response that queasy disgust at the manipulation evident in the presentation.
This is is created to deliver a message directly contrary to the words of the text.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Todays_Illusion
(1,209 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)You have a nice day!
Todays_Illusion
(1,209 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)yurbud
(39,405 posts)Since we don't it must serve some policy goal of our government.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)http://www.salon.com/2015/11/17/the_left_has_an_islam_problem_if_liberals_wont_come_to_terms_with_religious_extremism_the_xenophobic_right_will_carry_the_day/
We can and should acknowledge our hypocrisies and our injustices and our complicity in creating the menace that is Islamic extremism. But if you think ISIS is merely a reaction against U.S. foreign policy, youre dangerously misguided. ISISs concerns arent primarily political. They are committed to a prophetic theology of seventh-century Islam, and everything they do and say confirms their desire to incite an apocalyptic confrontation with the modern world.
Their hatred of infidels and their belief in martyrdom and armed Jihad have a scriptural basis, and its dishonest to pretend otherwise. And their brand of Islam isnt radically different from the Wahhabism practiced in Saudi Arabia. Most Muslims arent Wahhabists and dont share this vision of life, just as most Christians arent stoning adulterers, even though there are biblical injunctions to do so. But its disingenuous to say ISIS has no connection to Islamic tradition.
The problem isnt Islam so much as Jihadism. Islam is a rich and complicated religion, with countless sects and denominations and readings. Almost all of these manifestations of Islam are peaceful and perfectly compatible with a free and pluralistic society. But Jihadists and certain Islamists want to impose their interpretation of Islam on the rest of society, including the West. This is a real problem, and its not reducible entirely to Eurocentrism or Western imperialism or neoconservative aggression or illegal and murderous drone strikes although these things are real and matter a great deal. And its not Islamophobic to admit this.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)There's a lot of talk about how this cartoon is bigoted, but pretty much every religion says I should be tortured beyond the heat death of the universe, In their own ways.
Why should I show respect to any of them?
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)of those naturally violent Muslims if they get elected. The US has been responsible for the deaths of millions of those violent Muslims in my life time. The US government must keep us safe.
Thank you for pointing out how violent those Muslims are.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Or that the solution to violent Islam is the wanton killing of whatever Muslim happens to walk into our crosshairs.
The problem the cartoon addresses is the refusal to admit that Islam can inspire violence, or at the very least legitimize the actions of already-violent people. Up until very recently, Christianity had a very similar problem, and the solution wasn't murder. It was enlightened philosophy.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)Using a straw man to essentially promote more hatred and violence is highly bigoted.
Of course Islam can inspire violence. We need less violence in this world. It should start at home.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Yes, the US has a legitimate Islamophobia problem that needs to be corrected. We also have a foreign interventions problem that really ought to be corrected as well. I don't think anyone here would disagree with that, but at the same time, the need to fix these problems doesn't necessitate that we ignore other problems in other countries. I think we can do both.
I'm not sure what the straw man is, or who is using said straw man to promote hatred and violence.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)That isn't true at all. You've turned reality on its head.
America's problem is excessive violence against Muslims because the dominant viewpoint is that they are violent and dangerous, and their lives aren't worth shit.
The Democratic presidential nominee is a major promoter of such violence, and just about all of the Republican candidates took a pro massacre Muslim position.
Unless something drastically changes in the US very quickly, I see a lot more murdered Muslims in the future. And considering that apparently the majority of Democrats seem to be fine with massacring Muslims, I don't see that happening.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)I do. I think Christianity and Judaism, and many other religions can inspire violence as well because they codify and - worse - sanctify our tribalistic tendencies. That's what unique about religion: the ability to place a position safely outside any kind of rational evaluation. "BECAUSE GOD SAYS SO" is the end of any discussion.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)I will never defend any religious belief system.
Religion is often used as a rationalization for selfishness, including sometimes as a rationalization for violence. Some Muslims are guilty of this. If you create your own god in your own image, your god can give you permission to do a lot of crap.
Religion is just one of many excuses for selfishness. A person that does it in the name of religion is no worse than a person that does it for any other excuse. An American that supports violence for any excuse is no less guilty than a Muslim that supports the spread of radical Islam through violence. It's all really for the same reason: selfishness.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)So good job, I guess.
But religion as a justification for violence and other bad behavior is unique, as I pointed out.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)It's completely true. Every time ISIS releases a new video, we see the same people saying the same thing over and over again: "these people aren't real Muslims". They claim Islam has nothing whatsoever to do with Islamism... odd, I know, but oft-repeated.
And I don't present this to distract from America's treatment of Muslims. I think we can pay attention to both problems.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)since he has his own definition of what constitutes a Muslim. Naturally someone that doesn't follow his own definition of Muslim, isn't a Muslim to him/her.
As a non-Muslim myself, who is or isn't a Muslim is an almost meaningless question. Who is or isn't a Muslim means many different things to different people. But if someone says they are Muslim, then as far as I'm concerned, they are Muslim. That doesn't necessarily reflect badly on a Muslim that behaves perfectly fine (beyond that fact that they support a ridiculous belief system).
A few non-Muslims that claim that poorly behaved Muslims aren't real Muslims are not that big of an issue. Why should we be concerned about their opinion? They aren't trying to hurt anybody of promote hatred or violence. Muslim bashing is a very big issue in the US. Millions have lost their live over it.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)If your argument is:
Person A calls themselves a Muslim.
Person B calls themselves a Muslim.
Because Person A is a Muslim, Person A has subjectively defined what it means to be Muslim.
Person B does not Person A's criteria.
Person A declares Person B is not a a real Muslim.
Then:
By the same rationale, Person B also has a subjective definition of "Muslim" and likely doesn't consider Person A a real Muslim, either. If one of these people is correct and other not, then there must exist some objective measure of what makes a Muslim.
Personally, I don't think there is a reliable objective measure of the term. All religious people interpret their religions selectively, and there is simply too much variance across language, culture, and geography to define "Islam" propositionally. "A follower of the alleged prophet Mohammed" is about as specific as you can get. If ISIS says they are Muslim, and much of what they've done is enforce 7th century Islamic jurisprudence on their conquered lands, then, yeah, I kinda think they are really Muslim, regardless of what some other Muslims might say.
And again, I don't take this position to generalize the behavior of Muslims. I don't think this should inform foreign or domestic policy. I bring it up because Islamisim is a problem with causes far more complex than many here would prefer to admit. Yes, American foreign policy is a component, and that's what should concern Americans the most, but there are factors indemic to the Islamic world that need to be addressed, like poverty, education, institutional corruption, and a long history of sectarian conflict... And that kind of conflict usually starts when Person A claims sole ownership of the truth and proclaims Person B a fake.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)I realize that not everyone gets it, but what are you on about? Wait, don't answer that, my head still hurts from trying to understand why some just don't seem to understand the point. This will be no different.
Response to cleanhippie (Reply #123)
Post removed