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Tue Jul 26, 2016, 04:51 PM

The Tower of Babel

It has been said by many that the people of the world need to learn how to work together and love one another.

At one time we had this. The people of the world all spoke the same language and were working toward a common goal. They were building a tower to get closer to their god.

It has been told that god was angry about this and took away the common language of men, destroyed the tower, and cast man to the ends of the world.

It begs the question then of who is to blame for the troubles of the world.

What are your thoughts??

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Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 27 replies Author Time Post
Reply The Tower of Babel (Original post)
Angry Dragon Jul 2016 OP
rug Jul 2016 #1
jonno99 Jul 2016 #4
Angry Dragon Jul 2016 #8
rug Jul 2016 #11
Angry Dragon Jul 2016 #13
rug Jul 2016 #14
Angry Dragon Jul 2016 #16
rug Jul 2016 #19
Android3.14 Jul 2016 #2
Angry Dragon Jul 2016 #7
jonno99 Jul 2016 #3
trotsky Jul 2016 #5
rug Jul 2016 #12
muriel_volestrangler Jul 2016 #20
rug Jul 2016 #21
rug Jul 2016 #22
muriel_volestrangler Jul 2016 #23
rug Jul 2016 #24
muriel_volestrangler Jul 2016 #25
rug Jul 2016 #26
Angry Dragon Jul 2016 #6
trotsky Jul 2016 #9
Angry Dragon Jul 2016 #10
edhopper Jul 2016 #15
Angry Dragon Jul 2016 #17
edhopper Jul 2016 #18
Iggo Jul 2016 #27

Response to Angry Dragon (Original post)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 04:59 PM

1. If there is no god, it's humans.

 

If there is a god who created humans with free will, same answer.

Personally, I blame the first person who kept an apple while another person was hungry.

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Response to rug (Reply #1)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 05:02 PM

4. Well said. nt

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Response to rug (Reply #1)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 05:15 PM

8. How can you have free will if a god interferes??

Now you are blaming a woman for the ills of the world??

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Response to Angry Dragon (Reply #8)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 05:21 PM

11. Interferes how?

 

I think you're confusing what I said about the apple. Read it again.

I hope I did not just invite a literalist spiel.

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Response to rug (Reply #11)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 05:28 PM

13. People where working together in a common goal and god did not like it

Changed their language and cast them to the far corners ......... I would call that interfering

I read Eve and the apple ........... if that is not correct then please explain

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Response to Angry Dragon (Reply #13)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 05:36 PM

14. I take it then you accept the first proposition, that if there is no god it's humans to blame.

 

If you're talking about the Tower of Babel, the lesson there is sovereignty, that there is an almighty God in heaven and there is an earth for humans, humans who are no longer in Eden. In that framework, it was not for them to build "a tower with its top in the heavens". I'm sure there's more to it but I'm not an anthropologist.

Regarding the apple, I was saying the exact opposite. The condition of the world is entirely the result of human actions, starting with the first person, not giving an apple, but keeping an apple from another. In short, capitalism has a long, long history.

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Response to rug (Reply #14)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 05:42 PM

16. I do not know if there is a god

If there is one then he/she should have let the people build their tower together and let them find out on their own that was not the way to get closer to their god

ANY interference from a god is not free will .............

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Response to Angry Dragon (Reply #16)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 05:59 PM

19. I don't either.

 

But if there is I wouldn't resent a helping hand every now and then. Too bad it doesn't work that way.

The most fundamental religious experience is to search - or grope - for the presence of God, not to seek a handout. As to Babel, the lesson I take is nobody can take an elevator to find God.

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Response to Angry Dragon (Original post)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 05:00 PM

2. Rather than blame, I'm more curious for a solution

 

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #2)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 05:13 PM

7. A solution would seem to be out of reach if a god is going to interfere

with man working together

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Response to Angry Dragon (Original post)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 05:00 PM

3. Yours is not the standard explanation -

They were building a tower to get closer to their god.

The generally accepted reason is that the building of the tower was seen as an act of defiance towards god.

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Response to jonno99 (Reply #3)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 05:09 PM

5. "Generally accepted"

Not really.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel
There they agreed to build a city and a tower "tall enough to reach heaven"; seeing this, God confounded their speech so that they could no longer understand each other and scattered them around the world.


Go to Genesis 11 and tell me what words indicate defiance. The words instead imply fear - by your god - of what humans might accomplish working together.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #5)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 05:24 PM

12. 11:4.

 

Get back to me.

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Response to rug (Reply #12)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 06:27 PM

20. They proposed to 'make a name for themselves'

There's nothing preceding that which says that God had told them not to 'make a name for themselves' (just a command to repopulate the earth; though the birds of the sky had been given into their hand, so they might have thought that building a tall tower would be fine). Instead, God says to himself 'if they do this, they'll be able to do anything, so we better nip this in the bud'.

Is there a moral to the tale? God fears what humans might do if they work together? God doesn't want people becoming famous? God may ruin your plans without prior warning?

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #20)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 06:31 PM

21. See #14.

 

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #20)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 06:34 PM

22. See #14.

 

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Response to rug (Reply #22)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 06:50 PM

23. 'it was not for them to build "a tower with its top in the heavens"'

But they didn't get a warning about that. God just decided that, and made them unable to communicate with each other, rather than, say, telling them to take down the tower, or just stop.

It's just as easy to interpret the passage as a "Frankenstein's Monster" or "Prometheus/Epimetheuas/Pandora" fable, in which God feels the need to restrict his creation because it's getting too powerful.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #23)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 07:06 PM

24. Clearly the creatures were not getting too powerful.

 

This is one of the many, many didactic passages that fill the Old Testament after the expulsion from Eden. Frankly, if you put any truck in this, they didn't need a warning after that.

(Frankenstein is subtitled "The Modern Prometheus" but your examples are otherwise inapt.)

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Response to rug (Reply #24)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 07:21 PM

25. 'getting too powerful' seems the clear message to me:

Genesis 11:6-7:

The Lord said, “Behold, they are one people, and they all have the same language. And this is what they began to do, and now nothing which they purpose to do will be impossible for them. Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech.”

You may say this is one of many didactic passages; but the previous message to humanity was, as I pointed out, "replenish the earth, and you have dominion over all animals". There's no order to not become too competent, or an idea of what would be "too" competent.

Since God says "they'll have too much ability", it seems to me the Pandora myth of a punishment, that causes the problems of humanity, for accepting the stolen secret of fire is quite similar.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #25)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 07:38 PM

26. I would call it more pride than power.

 

That is the theme that runs throughout the Old Testament.

The opposite of that is humility, not in its craven sense but in its etymological sense, from humus, of the earth.

As the theology goes, humans were created in a place of perfection, Eden. When pride, the interposition of human will before divine will, entered, happiness left. The next hundreds of years recount, again and again, the result of unwarranted human pride. Babel is one of those events.

The Buddhist notion of mindfulness is not dissimiiar to that notion of humility.

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Response to jonno99 (Reply #3)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 05:11 PM

6. Seeing as you have nothing to back up your reason I will stick with mine

Because with mine they were getting closer to their god ............. at at least in their way of thinking
and it is always better to have more than one way of thought
and who thought they were defiant??

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Response to Angry Dragon (Reply #6)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 05:16 PM

9. I guess one could argue that they were defiant of the one constant divine command:

"Know your place, pathetic humans."

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Response to trotsky (Reply #9)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 05:18 PM

10. Seeing as we are pathetic we will never work together .... just saying

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Response to Angry Dragon (Original post)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 05:38 PM

15. I blame the Irish



before anyone takes offense, It's a Blazing Saddles call back.

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Response to edhopper (Reply #15)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 05:42 PM

17. Never forget the republicans

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Response to Angry Dragon (Reply #17)

Tue Jul 26, 2016, 05:51 PM

18. I actually blame religion for a lot of it

But people in general can be really fucked up, they are slow to learn and often despise reason.

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Response to Angry Dragon (Original post)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 01:22 AM

27. God's will = God's fault

And they worship the dude.

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