Religion
Related: About this forumIs the Universe Made of Math?
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-the-universe-made-of-math-excerpt/What's the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything? In Douglas Adams' science-fiction spoof The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, the answer was found to be 42; the hardest part turned out to be finding the real question. I find it very appropriate that Douglas Adams joked about 42, because mathematics has played a striking role in our growing understanding of our Universe.
The Higgs Boson was predicted with the same tool as the planet Neptune and the radio wave: with mathematics. Galileo famously stated that our Universe is a grand book written in the language of mathematics. So why does our universe seem so mathematical, and what does it mean? In my new book Our Mathematical Universe, I argue that it means that our universe isnt just described by math, but that it is math in the sense that were all parts of a giant mathematical object, which in turn is part of a multiverse so huge that it makes the other multiverses debated in recent years seem puny in comparison.
I haven't read the book, yet, but it's on it's way to my home. What MIT cosmologist Max Tegmark is writing about is an old, old concept that has always interested me. It's an alternative cosmology, based solely on mathematics. In my own thinking, imaginary numbers play a large role in that mathematics, as they do in fractal mathematics.
I'll read the book with great interest, but I thought some in this group would be interested in this excerpt from it that was published in Scientific American. If the idea interests you, perhaps the book would be a next step. You might also be interested in Tegmark's website at:
http://space.mit.edu/home/tegmark/
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,669 posts)Some 50 years after my high school graduation I can do simple algebra with one variable instead of running away, crying. If the universe is all about math I'll probably wind up and in Hell and have to spend eternity struggling with the quadratic formula while demons disguised as smart kids laugh at me.
MineralMan
(146,285 posts)with cosmological theories. That's certainly true for me. However, I keep exploring it to the best of my ability.
Why is this post in the Religion Group? Because religions generally attempt to explain cosmology in one way or another. I'm interested in such explanations, from whatever source. So far, I haven't really found the religious explanations satisfactory, really.
We humans keep trying to gain understanding. It's an enterprise that can provide a foundation for an entire life of study and thought.
CrispyQ
(36,454 posts)Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)It helps us to explain things, but is not the actual end result.
I don't know if this even belongs in this group, but sure, tie it in theologically.
MineralMan
(146,285 posts)However, your statement about mathematics may not be accurate. Mathematics is. We are simply discovering it as we go.
rug
(82,333 posts)Woo.
MineralMan
(146,285 posts)I can only .
rug
(82,333 posts)I like tacos de lengua. I also like linguisa. Those words are not Latin, but derive from it.
After I've read the book, perhaps I'll discuss the idea further. Right now, all I have is that excerpt. I doubt I'll be able to reduce the idea to one word, though. I don't have your skills, apparently.
rug
(82,333 posts)Response to MineralMan (Original post)
ymetca This message was self-deleted by its author.
MineralMan
(146,285 posts)Last edited Mon Apr 17, 2017, 04:42 PM - Edit history (1)
There is math involved, you see. Water exists because of physics and chemistry. And, those two gasses are made of atoms, which are, in turn made of particles, which are, in turn, made of subatomic particles, which are really just equivalencies of energy. What's energy made of? I don't know, and neither does anyone else yet. Math, perhaps?
Water is an expression of physics and chemistry. We simply experience water as water, but there's more to it than that.
Response to MineralMan (Reply #8)
ymetca This message was self-deleted by its author.
MineralMan
(146,285 posts)Perhaps it's made of nothing at all, but makes everything. Perhaps what we humans have attributed to deities is simply mathematics at work. I don't know. I hope to keep exploring, though. I'm certain of nothing other than the fact that there is much to learn.
You see, people have often asked, as you did about math, "What is God made of?" Perhaps they are the same questions, eh?
Jim__
(14,074 posts)This excerpt from wikipedia should clear up any confusion:
The "mathematics-theist" God Series says that Tegmark's theory, beyond the basic hypothesis of mathematicism, isn't realistic according to Pythagorean mathematical monism expressed in Pythagoras' statement "all is number" (paraphrased by Plato, which mathematicists such as Hockney also restate as "everything is mathematics" . Hockney states that is because with existing mathematics, and by the principle of Occam's Razor, several levels aren't needed to explain reality; one only needs mental/mathematical monism (one level, with dual aspects of mind and illusory but objective matter within mind) because every geometric and material object fully contains and can be broken down into (locations for) mathematical points. This is also the case with one object that is a major basis of modern physics: the wave, which all possible waves are all plotted point-by-point with Euler's Formula or higher-dimensional versions (as the basic formula is two-dimensional).[clarification needed] Hockney says that a mathematical point is the basis of mind (as in Leibnizian mind/monad, unit, number, or point) and because of that and the nature of Pythagoreanism, one doesn't need a quantum theory variant based on the Copenhagen Interpretation with "many worlds", not even mathematical objects (as material worlds), that he says only need to exist in the mind, but that to be true mathematicism/mentalism/Pythagoreanism or mathematical Platonism, or mathematical Leibnizianism, a single (and single-level, mental) large/infinite universe modelled by using mathematical points and waves & Euler's Formula to mathematicize the De Broglie-Bohm theory is the correct approach.[19]
MineralMan
(146,285 posts)really say all that much about Tegmark's ideas. However, I'm looking forward to reading it, as I was looking forward to reading Hofstadter's Gödel, Escher, Bach. I find all explorations of cosmologists interesting, but am not equipped mathematically to completely plumb those depths.
I finally understood imaginary numbers after reading Hofstadter. Perhaps I'll understand something else that is new to me after reading Tegmark.
In any case, it is the exploration that is worth doing, one way or another, I believe.
Response to MineralMan (Reply #11)
ymetca This message was self-deleted by its author.
Jim__
(14,074 posts)[center]
[/center]MineralMan
(146,285 posts)tortoise1956
(671 posts)But clearing up confusion? Not so much...
struggle4progress
(118,274 posts)on our ability to focus and to remember
One reason I like mathematics is simply that I don't have a great memory: so if I can "figure it out" instead of "recalling it," that's helpful to me
A cosmology "based solely on mathematics" would be profoundly unscientific: Max Tegmark cannot understand this world by pure thought --- and if he believes he can, he falls into a dangerous ideological error
The great insight from the era of the "natural philosophers" was that we can improve some of our abstractions by discarding those which fail observational or experimental tests and disregarding those which are untestable: that method works very well for a CERTAIN class of abstractions --- though not for ALL abstractions I consider important
The language of mathematics became part of the language of science because mathematics can be organized in a logical fashion and because some mathematics is associated with useful computational rules
But much of modern mathematics cannot be associated with useful computational rules; and so we might have cause to doubt the actual scientific value of much of mathematics
The computable fragment of mathematics is a rather strange and wild land: problems that can be solved by computation can, by very slight modification, become problems that are impossible to solve by computation
We should suspect such phenomena will occur in good physics as well: a rather satisfactory and computable theory might, by an reasonable modification, become a theory which does not admit a general solution by computation --- in which case, we might by a variety of clever attacks, be able to solve THESE special cases or THOSE special cases of the theory, without any hope of ever solving certain OTHER special cases
MineralMan
(146,285 posts)Tegmark's book. Until then, I really can't carry on much of a discussion. This thread was designed to let people know that the book and Tegmark exist. I can neither defend nor speak against his ideas until I know more about them.
I find the concept interesting, so I will learn more about it.
struggle4progress
(118,274 posts)Now, this isn't nearly the full story: the Higgs Boson, Neptune, and the radio wave were not predicted on the basis of mathematics alone. There has been, in fact, a rather long development involving a struggle to obtain postulates (in part from experimental/observational measurement), reasoning rules, and calculational techniques that finally produced theories that could enable the predictions. The triumph here is not simply a triumph of pure mathematics: it is a triumph involving technological improvement, many tedious hours of experimental/observational work, as well as careful computation
The mathematics practiced by physicists, in fact, differs in important ways from the mathematics practiced by pure mathematicians: a physicist is generally much less concerned by foundational issues than the pure mathematician might be. Among the problems posed by David Hilbert at the International Congress of Mathematicians in 1900, the sixth was to axiomatize physics. But anyone who worked on that problem then would have soon had the unhappy experience that physics was promptly set-on-its-ear. In 1900 even the atomic theory was not universally accepted. The first Nobel prize in physics (1901) went to Roentgen for discovering x-rays. Becquerel and the Curies were honored in 1903 for work related to radioactivity; Michelson in 1907 for interferometer experiments; Planck in 1918 for discovering quantization of energy; Einstein in 1921 for his 1905 explanation of the photoelectric effect; Bohr in 1922 for work on atomic spectra; Millikan in 1923 for measuring the electron charge; and de Broglie in 1929 for his 1925 proposal of the wave nature of electrons. One might (I suppose) regard the contributions of (say) Planck, Einstein, Bohr, and de Broglie as mainly mathematical -- but these did not occur without an experimental context and motivation; and the contributions would not have continued to enthrall without evidence from measurement
In fact, much of the development of mathematics has been driven by problems-needing-solution; and the solution-techniques have become refined by generations of people exercising inventive ingenuity. Just as the past bequeathed to us the wheel, the fork, and movable type, so also it left us accomplishments in describing the world. It might, therefore, be more natural to ask how current mathematics reflects the capabilities and proclivities of the human brain, and various aspects of human social interaction, rather than to project the mathematics onto the world, as if the mathematics itself were the real thing, rather than a large and increasingly polished collection of useful inventions
MineralMan
(146,285 posts)until I read the book. As the title of this post and its associated article indicates, this is a question, not a statement. I'm not saying that I believe this to be true. I'm saying that it's interesting, and that I'm interested in learning more. Others may also be interested, which is why I posted in the first place.
Normally, I don't read arguments against something until I've read the material myself. Then, I'll better understand arguments for and against a hypothesis.
There's a lot that is still unknown, and any attempts to understand what is unknown are interesting. Even hypotheses that are shown to be incorrect are valuable, if only because they encourage further thinking and study.
Somehow, some people seem to think I'm promoting Tegmark's ideas. I'm not. I'm promoting ideas in general. Until I have a chance to read what he wrote, I can't really form an opinion. But, I still have many questions, as to pretty much all cosmologists. I'm not a cosmologist. I'm just interested in cosmology.
struggle4progress
(118,274 posts)Posted on January 17, 2014 by woit
Tegmarks career is a rather unusual story, mixing reputable science with an increasingly strong taste for grandiose nonsense. In this book he indulges his inner crank, describing in detail an utterly empty vision of the ultimate nature of reality ...
The book explains Tegmarks categorization of multiverse scenarios in terms of Level ...
Tegmarks innovation is to postulate a new .. Level IV multiverse. With the string landscape, you explain any observed physical law as a random solution of the equations of M-theory ... Tegmarks idea is to take the same non-explanation explanation, and apply it to explain the equations of M-theory. According to him, all mathematical structures exist, and the equations of M-theory or whatever else governs Level II are just some random mathematical structure, complicated enough to provide something for us to live in. Yes, this really is as spectacularly empty an idea as it seems ...
On page 354 there is a paragraph explaining not a Level IV prediction, but the possibility of a Level IV prediction. The idea seems to be that if your Level II theory turns out to have the right properties, you might be able to claim that what you see is not just fine-tuned in the parameters of the Level II theory, but also fine-tuned in the space of all mathematical structures. I think an accurate way of characterizing this is that Tegmark is assuming something that has no reason to be true, then invoking something nonsensical (a measure on the space of all mathematical structures) ...
http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=6551
Bretton Garcia
(970 posts)Plato seemed to hint that our lives are controlled,generated by, invisible master models, templates, "forms." At times he seemed to hint they were mathematical rules. Maybe geometry. He might have suggested those ideal forms existed up in heaven.
But somehow, so far, being a great mathematician, doesn't also mean you know how to fix your lawnmower. The gap between math and what we see around us is still too great.
MineralMan
(146,285 posts)of the sciences is merely interesting, but likely to need refinement.
As for fixing lawnmowers, some mathematicians, no doubt, have the skills and knowledge to repair a lawnmower. The same can be said of any well-educated person. Education and specific technical skills are not necessarily related. It's an odd argument you make, really.
Bretton Garcia
(970 posts)When is math sufficiently detailed that it can fully describe the bunch of bananas on my kitchen table? Or what my girlfriend will say next?
In principle, I can imagine a math good enough to do that. But as a practical matter, the moment we have that is rather far off.
MineralMan
(146,285 posts)This is all about finding something that explains the very beginnings of the existence of the universe. My guess is that the equation for that will be very simple. Everything else is simply related to that.
There would be no need for specific equations that defined individual finite things. The equation that started everything is the goal.
If it exists, I'm sure it will include i, an imaginary number, the square root of -1.
Buckeye_Democrat
(14,853 posts)that has many repetitive patterns.
I doubt that mathematics would seem useful to the minds of hypothetical Boltzmann Brains that appeared in a universe of random noise.
NeoGreen
(4,031 posts)...instead.
Innumeracy: Mathematical Illiteracy and Its Consequences
Why do even well-educated people understand so little about mathematics? And what are the costs of our innumeracy? John Allen Paulos, in his celebrated bestseller first published in 1988, argues that our inability to deal rationally with very large numbers and the probabilities associated with them results in misinformed governmental policies, confused personal decisions, and an increased susceptibility to pseudoscience of all kinds. Innumeracy lets us know what we're missing, and how we can do something about it.
Sprinkling his discussion of numbers and probabilities with quirky stories and anecdotes, Paulos ranges freely over many aspects of modern life, from contested elections to sports stats, from stock scams and newspaper psychics to diet and medical claims, sex discrimination, insurance, lotteries, and drug testing. Readers of Innumeracy will be rewarded with scores of astonishing facts, a fistful of powerful ideas, and, most important, a clearer, more quantitative way of looking at their world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innumeracy_(book)
https://www.amazon.com/Innumeracy-Mathematical-Illiteracy-Its-Consequences/dp/0809058405
struggle4progress
(118,274 posts)By Massimo Pigliucci | January 16th 2014 10:30 AM
... several critics of Tegmarks ideas have pointed out that they run afoul of the seemingly omnipresent (and much misunderstood) Gödels incompleteness theorems. Mark Alford, specifically, during a debate with Tegmark and Piet Hut has suggested that the idea that mathematics is out there is incompatible with the idea that it consists of formal systems. To which Tegmark replied that perhaps only Gödel-complete mathematical structures have physical existence (something referred to as the Computable Universe Hypothesis, CUH).
This, apparently, results in serious problems for Maxs theory, since it excludes much of the landscape of mathematical structures, not to mention that pretty much every successful physical theory so far would violate CUH. Oops ...
... he claimed that the MUH does make empirical predictions, but when pressed on the details the answer becomes .. less satisfying than one would hope ... Max said that one prediction is that physics will continue to uncover mathematical regularities in nature. Well, probably, but one .. doesnt need to postulate MUH to account for that. He also has stated in the past that assuming we live in an average universe (within the multiverse of mathematical structures) then we start testing multiverse predictions by assessing how typical our universe is. But how would we carry out such tests, if we have no access to the other parts of the multiverse? ...
http://www.science20.com/rationally_speaking/mathematical_universe_i_ain%E2%80%99t_convinced-127841
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Mathematics is the language we use to describe how matter behaves.
MineralMan
(146,285 posts)Since it does, it also influences how matter behaves. There is enormous variability in how matter behaves. There's also a lot of unpredictability. A number of people are studying antimatter, because it's simply interesting. There are many hypotheses regarding it, but no universal acceptance of any of them.
While much of mathematics is descriptive when it's used to understand matter, one problem we face is that we often don't actually understand matter all that well yet.
For example, I developed an interest in crystallography during my time of studying and selling specimens of minerals. It's easy to describe why the mineral pyrite forms crystals of cubic form using mathematics. However, that mineral also occurs in an extremely varieties of crystals of other forms than simple cubes. Dozens of them. All can be described and quantified as variations of the cubic system of crystallization, and mathematically, as well.
What is not understood, however, is what causes that mineral, during crystallization, to take any of the variety of crystal forms. Not being a professional mineralogist or crystallography expert, I asked a number of people their opinions on the occurrence of pyrite crystals in such a variety, and what might be the triggers to cause such variations. The answer was always, "We don't know." There are a number of hypotheses for it, but none that are proven. There's no actual explanation available, but it's a very interesting question.
Each of the systems of crystallization can be expressed in a multitude of crystal forms. Why a crystal grows in any of those variations is unknown. Is it unknowable? Probably not. But, it remains unknown.
Such things interest me. I don't know if such questions will ever be answered, but I remain interested in the fact that the questions exist.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)It has mass and takes up space. It is a subset of matter, not a category unto itself.
MineralMan
(146,285 posts)The most well understood example of this statement is Einstein's E=MC2 equation. The derivation of this is very complex, but the expression is about as simple as can be.
In that simple equation, Einstein quantified the equivalence of energy and matter, and forever changed the way we see the universe. From that simple equation, additional study has led to enormously complex mathematical statements that might not have been created without Einstein's simple expression of a profound fact about physics.
There have been a number of other profoundly simple equations that have helped us to understand the physical world around us. Newton gave us some. Others have contributed others. Simplicity often makes the strongest statement.
Perhaps there are other, equally simple mathematical expressions yet to be stated. I don't know if that's the case, but it's an interesting thing to consider, I think.
struggle4progress
(118,274 posts)A great effort had gone into quantifying electrical phenomena, and Maxwell managed to assemble that work into a beautiful theory of electricity and magnetism, deriving that the theory predicted waves moving at the speed of light
Neither the speed of light, nor the constants that Maxwell (and some predecessors) had combined to yield it, were known a priori --- they had been found through hard experimental work
Moreover, Maxwell's astounding accomplishment was not only highly productive: it was also extraordinarily misleading; and experimental work intended to exploit Maxwell's ideas actually immediately encountered unexpected difficulties that toppled the worldview that had allowed Maxwell's original insights
Having a good electromagnetic theory set people searching for ways to generate and detect electromagnetic waves: the ultimate outcome was radio
At the same time, the idea "light is a wave" naturally led to a fruitless search for whatever medium the lightwave was vibrating (the so-called "luminiferous ether" .
The first crude original radio-device of Hertz encountered another weird problem. Hertz wanted to detect the electromagnetic wave generated by a spark, by producing a secondary spark in a wire loop some distance away. The method apparently worked. Inconveniently, however, the secondary spark was small and quite hard to see. The obvious solution, of course, was a darker environment. Unfortunately, and unexpectedly, darker environments produced even smaller secondary sparks. This "photoelectric effect" was real, but for many years it was difficult to obtain consistent experimental results about the phenomenon, until Millikan finally carefully built his machine shop in vacuo and used it to accumulate data over a decade
By this time, the very comfortable world of classical physics, not so long after Maxwell's triumphs, began to unravel: the Michaelson-Morley experiment cast doubt on the "luminiferous ether," which perhaps suggested light was a particle after all; and Einstein showed how that hypothesis could explain the "photoelectric effect," with Millikan's later data supporting Einstein and Einstein's predicted relation to Planck's constant. What then could be the relationship between the light particle and Maxwell's continuous wave?
What is important here is not pure mathematics, but statements in a mathematical language always being tested against the world, with the parts that really don't work being discarded. There is, as yet, no firm foundation: we have partial maps of the world, which work well in some respects, not so well in others, and a continual effort made to rework the maps so they are more consistent with each other and with the world we want to understand
MineralMan
(146,285 posts)I'm contemplating Euler's Identity, also known as Euler's Equation.
ei?+1=0
Considered by many to be the most "beautiful" equation in mathematics, it's also a classic equation that includes complex numbers, using the imaginary number "i", which is the square root of -1.
Euler's Equation is extremely interesting, in that it is descriptive of much that is fundamental in geometry and trigonometry, and has implications in many areas of science.
Here are some comments on it from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler%27s_identity
The mathematics writer Constance Reid has opined that Euler's identity is "the most famous formula in all mathematics".[7] And Benjamin Peirce, a noted American 19th-century philosopher, mathematician, and professor at Harvard University, after proving Euler's identity during a lecture, stated that the identity "is absolutely paradoxical; we cannot understand it, and we don't know what it means, but we have proved it, and therefore we know it must be the truth".[8]
Perhaps it might be the equation that represents our concept of a deity. Or perhaps not. The investigation continues.
MineralMan
(146,285 posts)Brilliant! And, in so doing, you have refuted Euler's Identity, as well, apparently. I bow deeply in your direction...
Jim__
(14,074 posts)[center]
[/center]MineralMan
(146,285 posts)the more interesting it all becomes. I'm out of my comfort zone with that video, though, although I get what it's talking about on some levels.
MineralMan
(146,285 posts)that helped me understand them better. It's rather fundamental, but interesting.
If you view the first one directly on YouTube, the rest will follow: