Wed Aug 23, 2017, 08:32 PM

guillaumeb (42,204 posts)

To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible

Thomas Of Aquinas, a Christian philosopher.

To paraphrase, to a theist, faith requires no proof. One has faith, or one does not. In contrast, Satoshi Kanazawa, a self-described
Scientific Fundamentalist:

Unfortunately, there are many other misconceptions about science. One of the most common misconceptions concerns the so-called “scientific proofs.” Contrary to popular belief, there is no such thing as a scientific proof.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/200811/common-misconceptions-about-science-i-scientific-proof

So in all the debate over faith, and faith versus science, it appears that many non-theists insist on proof of faith. Proof in a scientific sense. As well to ask why Einstein or Hawkins are not mentioned in the Bible.

And if a non-theist asks why faith is, or why it persists, a theist would answer that faith persists because the Creator persists.

Thoughts?

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142 replies	Author	Time	Post
To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible (Original post)	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	OP
Einstein is too honorable to be mentioned in the Bible.	Dawson Leery	Aug 2017	#1
But, he did say this:	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#3
He also thought quantum mechanics was a bunch of bunk	Lordquinton	Aug 2017	#14
Proving that Einstein was not omniscient.	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#24
Einstein changed his mind when presented with evidence.	AtheistCrusader	Aug 2017	#76
Why does a Muslim's faith persist if his faith is "wrong" according to your faith?	Binkie The Clown	Aug 2017	#2
Your questions presuppose that I believe that these paths are wrong.	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#4
Just like unicorns are so far advanced that all we can perceive are traces of their actions.	Binkie The Clown	Aug 2017	#5
I knew it. A person of faith.	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#6
A garage is no place for a unicorn ..... a meadow is better	Angry Dragon	Aug 2017	#12
You can't leave unicorns in the meadow because the trolls will eat them.	Voltaire2	Aug 2017	#72
The trolls only eat them because the Succubus have completely obliterated the trolls' natural food	Heddi	Aug 2017	#95
you are right	larwdem	Aug 2017	#62
Could we cut the mockery?...Not every believer is a dummy or a nut job	whathehell	Aug 2017	#104
Mockery is an important tool for some. eom	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#107
The problem with faith is this:	Binkie The Clown	Aug 2017	#108
Faith is a belief in the unprovable.	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#139
I have faith that my invisible unicorn will poop gold bricks.	Binkie The Clown	Aug 2017	#140
If your beliefs are convincing to you, THAT is the key.	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#141
The problem with you post is this:	whathehell	Aug 2017	#142
Personal experience is the ultimate anecdote.	AtheistCrusader	Aug 2017	#115
No you can't.	AtheistCrusader	Aug 2017	#77
The problem with faith is	marylandblue	Aug 2017	#7
If you are an atheist,	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#8
I dunno,	Eko	Aug 2017	#9
I cannot know.	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#21
No, no, no.	Eko	Aug 2017	#27
Assuming that the Creator would so manifest, and playing the role of scientist,	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#30
There are multiple tests	Eko	Aug 2017	#35
These tests were devised by human scientists.	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#40
Ill take that chance.	Eko	Aug 2017	#55
You did ask for what tests	Eko	Aug 2017	#60
In the Bible, in Exodus 33, Moses wanted to look upon God's form	Mariana	Aug 2017	#68
I notice the claims of god manifesting as burning bushes and towers of fire has dropped precipitousl	AtheistCrusader	Aug 2017	#78
one instance	edhopper	Aug 2017	#44
Why did the universe come into being?	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#47
why do you need a why?	edhopper	Aug 2017	#51
Not how, why?	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#52
Why does there need to be a why	edhopper	Aug 2017	#59
Why do you need a why?	marylandblue	Aug 2017	#61
Why do you need there to be a 'why'?	AtheistCrusader	Aug 2017	#80
I'm an agnostic	marylandblue	Aug 2017	#10
So he is unknowable?	Eko	Aug 2017	#11
Why is that balderdash?	marylandblue	Aug 2017	#15
For what reason do you say this?	Eko	Aug 2017	#29
Because we can see that tbere are no dragons	marylandblue	Aug 2017	#89
Because you presuppose omniscience and omnipotence.	AtheistCrusader	Aug 2017	#81
If it is omnipotent, it can avoid being percieved	marylandblue	Aug 2017	#90
Exactly.	AtheistCrusader	Aug 2017	#91
I suppose I am an agnostic atheist too.	marylandblue	Aug 2017	#92
so God	edhopper	Aug 2017	#17
Good point	marylandblue	Aug 2017	#18
We know were the concept arose	edhopper	Aug 2017	#19
I don't accept it	marylandblue	Aug 2017	#20
I wasn't trying to confront you	edhopper	Aug 2017	#26
I think it is hard-wired into our brains	marylandblue	Aug 2017	#63
yes	edhopper	Aug 2017	#66
Did William of Occam believe in a Creator?	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#31
Did he apply his own reasoning to God?	edhopper	Aug 2017	#34
An understanding that is still far from complete.	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#38
yet accurate	edhopper	Aug 2017	#41
Accurate as far as it goes.	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#43
so you are going with	edhopper	Aug 2017	#45
I am a person of faith who admits that my faith is not in any way based on science.	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#49
You keep insisting that we must consider "why" the universe exists.	MineralMan	Aug 2017	#129
People do ask "why" about many things. Is the asking itself necessary?	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#132
SOME people do ask 'why' about the existence of the universe.	AtheistCrusader	Aug 2017	#135
I understand.	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#137
I believe he did	marylandblue	Aug 2017	#37
And he did have faith, even while knowing it was unprovable.	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#46
He didn't believe it was unprovable	marylandblue	Aug 2017	#57
Ockham.	AtheistCrusader	Aug 2017	#82
Speculation, but it can be interesting to speculate.	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#102
When the church muzzled William of Ockham, how was our understanding of the universe and our place	AtheistCrusader	Aug 2017	#114
But even in science nothing is considered truly provable.	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#22
depends on whose philosophy of science you go by	edhopper	Aug 2017	#32
Which is why faith and science do not compete. eom	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#33
Until people of faith contend something happened or exists	edhopper	Aug 2017	#36
lots of things are truly provable	Voltaire2	Aug 2017	#71
not all gods have been defined as omni-*.	Voltaire2	Aug 2017	#70
I thought athiests did not believe in gods ........ agnostics did not know if gods exist	Angry Dragon	Aug 2017	#13
Atheists do not see any evidence to believe in the god hypothesis.	Moostache	Aug 2017	#83
Correct. Gnosticism is about knowledge, Theism is about Faith.	AtheistCrusader	Aug 2017	#84
Getting semantic about what Science is and how it does it	Lordquinton	Aug 2017	#16
Science has its methods.	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#23
Yes,	Eko	Aug 2017	#65
All Damn Day.	AtheistCrusader	Aug 2017	#85
No.	Act_of_Reparation	Aug 2017	#93
faith is an opinion formed in the absence of fact. nt	msongs	Aug 2017	#25
Yes, it is. Faith is belief and the realization that the belief is unprovable.	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#28
that is a different category	edhopper	Aug 2017	#39
But unprovable also.	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#42
its a philosophical opinion	edhopper	Aug 2017	#48
It is unprovable, thus a matter of faith.	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#50
no	edhopper	Aug 2017	#53
YOU believe it is unprovable. Today that may be so, overall.	AtheistCrusader	Aug 2017	#86
Belief in democracy is a combination of evidence and value	marylandblue	Aug 2017	#56
I cannont see the wind, and yet I can see the effects of the wind...	Docreed2003	Aug 2017	#54
The wind is quite visible and measurable	edhopper	Aug 2017	#64
All of those measures are the effects of the wind...	Docreed2003	Aug 2017	#67
Thanks for the thoughtful answer	edhopper	Aug 2017	#75
You can see the wind in a variety of ways.	AtheistCrusader	Aug 2017	#88
I'm a fairly ardent atheist.	AtheistCrusader	Aug 2017	#87
Always thought Aquinas was full of shit	Bradshaw3	Aug 2017	#58
I'm not sure this makes sense.	ExciteBike66	Aug 2017	#69
That's a really slick argument you got there.	Act_of_Reparation	Aug 2017	#73
To one who has faith, no explanation is possible.	MineralMan	Aug 2017	#74
No, I stand by the quotation.	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#96
Well, faith certainly is useful when it comes to supernatural stuff.	MineralMan	Aug 2017	#98
If I may ask, what has inspired this outpouring of reflections on faith?	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#99
Oddly, your statement doesn't seem connected to your title.	MineralMan	Aug 2017	#100
I personally find it interesting that some of the atheists here feel that a belief can be	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#101
I would never call a belief a non-belief.	MineralMan	Aug 2017	#103
The " number of steps" person sounds as if he might have an OCD issue.	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#105
Yes, no doubt he did.	MineralMan	Aug 2017	#106
What do you think Donald Trump believes, and should his beliefs go unchallenged?	AtheistCrusader	Aug 2017	#119
I think that Donald Trump believes in himself.	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#122
Nice dodge.	AtheistCrusader	Aug 2017	#125
You did ask.	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#126
No you didn't. Observe.	AtheistCrusader	Aug 2017	#127
Trump self-describes as a Christian.	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#130
And?	AtheistCrusader	Aug 2017	#133
That is my judgment/analysis of Trump.	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#134
SHOULD HIS BELIEFS GO UNCHALLENGED?	AtheistCrusader	Aug 2017	#136
Trump's actions are challenged every day.	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#138
Oh good, we're at that point in a conversation where you insist atheism is a belief.	AtheistCrusader	Aug 2017	#118
Do you believe that there is/there are no god/gods?	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#121
No. I do not believe your (and others) claims that there is a god.	AtheistCrusader	Aug 2017	#124
Maybe we don't seek an echo chamber?	AtheistCrusader	Aug 2017	#117
Logical error. If you could prove god exists, people would still have to chose to have faith or not	AtheistCrusader	Aug 2017	#116
A logical error.	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#120
I believe the Seahawks can win the next super bowl. They've proven in the past they CAN.	AtheistCrusader	Aug 2017	#123
Silly poo	LovesPNW	Aug 2017	#79
And yet, Anselm defined theology as "faith seeking understanding"	Htom Sirveaux	Aug 2017	#94
And what is the understanding that is pursued?	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#97
Careful, now.	Act_of_Reparation	Aug 2017	#109
And never end. eom	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#110
Wisdom, after the manner of Socrates,	Htom Sirveaux	Aug 2017	#111
Anslem said:	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#112
Indeed, so that raises the question	Htom Sirveaux	Aug 2017	#113
but if there is no such thing as a creator there goes their argument why faith persists.	samnsara	Aug 2017	#128
Faith in a Creator presupposes the existence of a Creator. eom	guillaumeb	Aug 2017	#131

Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Wed Aug 23, 2017, 08:40 PM

Dawson Leery (18,404 posts)

To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible

1. Einstein is too honorable to be mentioned in the Bible.

3. But, he did say this:

14. He also thought quantum mechanics was a bunch of bunk

24. Proving that Einstein was not omniscient.

76. Einstein changed his mind when presented with evidence.

2. Why does a Muslim's faith persist if his faith is "wrong" according to your faith?

4. Your questions presuppose that I believe that these paths are wrong.

5. Just like unicorns are so far advanced that all we can perceive are traces of their actions.

6. I knew it. A person of faith.

12. A garage is no place for a unicorn ..... a meadow is better

72. You can't leave unicorns in the meadow because the trolls will eat them.

95. The trolls only eat them because the Succubus have completely obliterated the trolls' natural food

62. you are right

104. Could we cut the mockery?...Not every believer is a dummy or a nut job

107. Mockery is an important tool for some. eom

108. The problem with faith is this:

139. Faith is a belief in the unprovable.

140. I have faith that my invisible unicorn will poop gold bricks.

141. If your beliefs are convincing to you, THAT is the key.

142. The problem with you post is this:

115. Personal experience is the ultimate anecdote.

77. No you can't.

7. The problem with faith is

8. If you are an atheist,

9. I dunno,

21. I cannot know.

27. No, no, no.

30. Assuming that the Creator would so manifest, and playing the role of scientist,

35. There are multiple tests

40. These tests were devised by human scientists.

55. Ill take that chance.

60. You did ask for what tests

68. In the Bible, in Exodus 33, Moses wanted to look upon God's form

78. I notice the claims of god manifesting as burning bushes and towers of fire has dropped precipitousl

44. one instance

47. Why did the universe come into being?

51. why do you need a why?

52. Not how, why?

59. Why does there need to be a why

61. Why do you need a why?

80. Why do you need there to be a 'why'?

10. I'm an agnostic

11. So he is unknowable?

15. Why is that balderdash?

29. For what reason do you say this?

89. Because we can see that tbere are no dragons

81. Because you presuppose omniscience and omnipotence.

90. If it is omnipotent, it can avoid being percieved

91. Exactly.

92. I suppose I am an agnostic atheist too.

17. so God

18. Good point

19. We know were the concept arose

20. I don't accept it

26. I wasn't trying to confront you

63. I think it is hard-wired into our brains

66. yes

31. Did William of Occam believe in a Creator?

34. Did he apply his own reasoning to God?

38. An understanding that is still far from complete.

41. yet accurate

43. Accurate as far as it goes.

45. so you are going with

49. I am a person of faith who admits that my faith is not in any way based on science.

129. You keep insisting that we must consider "why" the universe exists.

132. People do ask "why" about many things. Is the asking itself necessary?

135. SOME people do ask 'why' about the existence of the universe.

137. I understand.

37. I believe he did

46. And he did have faith, even while knowing it was unprovable.

57. He didn't believe it was unprovable

82. Ockham.

102. Speculation, but it can be interesting to speculate.

114. When the church muzzled William of Ockham, how was our understanding of the universe and our place

22. But even in science nothing is considered truly provable.

32. depends on whose philosophy of science you go by

33. Which is why faith and science do not compete. eom

36. Until people of faith contend something happened or exists

71. lots of things are truly provable