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Fri Oct 20, 2017, 02:59 PM

Why millennials are ditching religion for witchcraft and astrology

In tumultuous political times, the 18-30 demographic is reaching for the stars.

Source: MarketWatch, by Kari Paul


*****

Interest in spirituality has been booming in recent years while interest in religion plummets, especially among millennials. The majority of Americans now believe it is not necessary to believe in God to have good morals, a study from Pew Research Center released Wednesday found. The percentage of people between the ages of 18 and 29 who “never doubt existence of God” fell from 81% in 2007 to 67% in 2012.

Meanwhile, more than half of young adults in the U.S. believe astrology is a science compared to less than 8% of the Chinese public. The psychic services industry — which includes astrology, aura reading, mediumship, tarot-card reading and palmistry, among other metaphysical services — grew 2% between 2011 and 2016. It is now worth $2 billion annually, according to industry analysis firm IBIS World.

Melissa Jayne, owner of Brooklyn-based “metaphysical boutique” Catland, said she has seen a major uptick in interest in the occult in the past five years, especially among New Yorkers in their 20s. The store offers workshops like “Witchcraft 101,” “Astrology 101,” and a “Spirit Seance.”

“Whether it be spell-casting, tarot, astrology, meditation and trance, or herbalism, these traditions offer tangible ways for people to enact change in their lives,” she said. “For a generation that grew up in a world of big industry, environmental destruction, large and oppressive governments, and toxic social structures, all of which seem too big to change, this can be incredibly attractive.”

Like the existence of God, however, there’s no actual scientific proof. Astrology has been debunked by numerous academic studies, but Banu Guler, co-founder of artificial intelligence powered astrology app Co—Star said the lack of structure in the field is exactly what drives young, educated professionals to invest their time and money in the practice.

“It’s very different from the way we usually work and live and date, where everything is hyper-mediated and rational,” she said. “There is a belief vacuum: we go from work to a bar to dinner and a date, with no semblance of meaning. Astrology is a way out of it, a way of putting yourself in the context of thousands of years of history and the universe.”

*****

Read it all at: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/why-millennials-are-ditching-religion-for-witchcraft-and-astrology-2017-10-20


"Nones?"

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Reply Why millennials are ditching religion for witchcraft and astrology (Original post)
yallerdawg Oct 2017 OP
exboyfil Oct 2017 #1
yallerdawg Oct 2017 #3
Act_of_Reparation Oct 2017 #27
yallerdawg Oct 2017 #30
Act_of_Reparation Oct 2017 #97
yallerdawg Oct 2017 #100
Act_of_Reparation Oct 2017 #102
whathehell Oct 2017 #77
JHan Oct 2017 #26
NRaleighLiberal Oct 2017 #2
yallerdawg Oct 2017 #4
NRaleighLiberal Oct 2017 #5
trotsky Oct 2017 #6
yallerdawg Oct 2017 #7
trotsky Oct 2017 #8
yallerdawg Oct 2017 #9
trotsky Oct 2017 #11
yallerdawg Oct 2017 #13
Lordquinton Oct 2017 #35
tymorial Oct 2017 #82
sprinkleeninow Oct 2017 #83
tymorial Oct 2017 #88
sprinkleeninow Oct 2017 #89
trotsky Oct 2017 #94
yallerdawg Oct 2017 #95
trotsky Oct 2017 #96
yallerdawg Oct 2017 #98
trotsky Oct 2017 #99
yallerdawg Oct 2017 #101
trotsky Oct 2017 #103
Mariana Oct 2017 #10
trotsky Oct 2017 #12
Mariana Oct 2017 #14
yallerdawg Oct 2017 #15
Mariana Oct 2017 #16
yallerdawg Oct 2017 #17
Mariana Oct 2017 #29
Cartoonist Oct 2017 #18
yallerdawg Oct 2017 #19
Cartoonist Oct 2017 #20
yallerdawg Oct 2017 #21
Cartoonist Oct 2017 #22
yallerdawg Oct 2017 #23
Cartoonist Oct 2017 #24
yallerdawg Oct 2017 #25
Pope George Ringo II Oct 2017 #31
yallerdawg Oct 2017 #32
Pope George Ringo II Oct 2017 #33
yallerdawg Oct 2017 #38
Pope George Ringo II Oct 2017 #44
yallerdawg Oct 2017 #48
Pope George Ringo II Oct 2017 #49
Pope George Ringo II Oct 2017 #58
yallerdawg Oct 2017 #62
Pope George Ringo II Oct 2017 #64
yallerdawg Oct 2017 #66
Pope George Ringo II Oct 2017 #70
yallerdawg Oct 2017 #71
Mariana Oct 2017 #34
yallerdawg Oct 2017 #39
Mariana Oct 2017 #42
yallerdawg Oct 2017 #53
Voltaire2 Oct 2017 #90
Lordquinton Oct 2017 #37
yallerdawg Oct 2017 #41
Pope George Ringo II Oct 2017 #47
Lordquinton Oct 2017 #86
Pope George Ringo II Oct 2017 #45
yallerdawg Oct 2017 #54
Pope George Ringo II Oct 2017 #60
atreides1 Oct 2017 #59
Voltaire2 Oct 2017 #51
yallerdawg Oct 2017 #55
Pope George Ringo II Oct 2017 #67
Lordquinton Oct 2017 #36
yallerdawg Oct 2017 #40
Cartoonist Oct 2017 #46
Voltaire2 Oct 2017 #52
yallerdawg Oct 2017 #56
Voltaire2 Oct 2017 #91
Mariana Oct 2017 #92
Lordquinton Oct 2017 #85
sprinkleeninow Oct 2017 #68
Mariana Oct 2017 #81
sprinkleeninow Oct 2017 #43
cilla4progress Oct 2017 #57
sprinkleeninow Oct 2017 #65
cilla4progress Oct 2017 #84
Voltaire2 Oct 2017 #50
Loki Liesmith Oct 2017 #79
PoliticAverse Oct 2017 #28
DBoon Oct 2017 #61
RKP5637 Oct 2017 #63
sprinkleeninow Oct 2017 #72
RKP5637 Oct 2017 #73
sprinkleeninow Oct 2017 #74
RKP5637 Oct 2017 #75
sprinkleeninow Oct 2017 #76
sprinkleeninow Oct 2017 #78
Bradshaw3 Oct 2017 #69
HeartachesNhangovers Oct 2017 #80
samnsara Oct 2017 #87
Mariana Oct 2017 #93

Response to yallerdawg (Original post)

Fri Oct 20, 2017, 03:03 PM

1. The Demon Haunted World

This is not a good trend.

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Response to exboyfil (Reply #1)

Fri Oct 20, 2017, 03:09 PM

3. Are we better off...

when we do find out what people believe in NOW?

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #3)

Fri Oct 20, 2017, 08:24 PM

27. Are we worse off?

Believing a guy rose from the dead is one thing, but stars predicting the future? That's crazy talk. AMIRITE?

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #27)

Fri Oct 20, 2017, 08:32 PM

30. So it's not so much believing in fantasy...

as much as it is which fantasy you believe in?

"Stars predicting the future" is acceptable...

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #30)

Mon Oct 23, 2017, 10:35 AM

97. I would prefer it if we stopped believing in bullshit altogether.

It just tickles me when the superstitious criticize each other without the slightest hint of self-awareness.

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #97)

Mon Oct 23, 2017, 10:43 AM

100. "Stop believing in bullshit altogether?"

Do you believe only atheists are the people with the foundation to be 'bull-shit' free?

That would be a 'belief,' wouldn't it?

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #100)

Mon Oct 23, 2017, 10:49 AM

102. No, I don't believe that.

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #3)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 02:04 PM

77. Doesn't sound like it, does it?

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Response to exboyfil (Reply #1)

Fri Oct 20, 2017, 08:23 PM

26. Sagan went to such lengths In that book...

To explain, to warn.

Sigh

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Response to yallerdawg (Original post)

Fri Oct 20, 2017, 03:08 PM

2. what is wrong with reality, I wonder? Why always the need for something else?

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Response to NRaleighLiberal (Reply #2)

Fri Oct 20, 2017, 03:14 PM

4. Years ago on PBS I saw a documentary on legalizing "drugs."

A psychologist came on and asked, "What is so wrong with this world and reality that we need to be 'self-medicated' to find any pleasure in it? Maybe that is the question we need to start with."

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #4)

Fri Oct 20, 2017, 03:16 PM

5. my wife and I have been saying that for many years. We quite love reality - despite it's occasional

painful parts.

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #4)

Fri Oct 20, 2017, 04:03 PM

6. Well, what's so wrong with this world and reality that we need to be saved by Jesus?

You've made it clear you think I'll be going to hell because I haven't accepted Jesus.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #6)

Fri Oct 20, 2017, 04:05 PM

7. If you can document or reference what you just posted...

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #7)

Fri Oct 20, 2017, 04:05 PM

8. Would you care to answer my question?

Why do you think this world is so terrible that people need to believe in Jesus?

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Response to trotsky (Reply #8)

Fri Oct 20, 2017, 04:07 PM

9. Again...

where have I EVER posted anything like that on DU?



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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #9)

Fri Oct 20, 2017, 05:10 PM

11. OK, I'll grant you your diversion.

It's all in this thread, as clear as can be because you refused to answer the very, very simple question directed at you:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1218255102

Multiple people all were able to draw the same conclusion.

However, you could clear it up right here and now and proclaim that you don't think anyone will be separated from your god or spend eternity being punished, that we will ALL join you in heaven.

Go ahead. Say it. You refused to answer on the other thread. Answer now.

Then you can answer the current question. Let's get this over with.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #11)

Fri Oct 20, 2017, 05:39 PM

13. I'm not at all concerned with what you believe - or 'not-believe.'

I am concerned with divisive intolerance.

I should be able to freely practice the religion of my choice - same as you.

It should only concern you if YOU are worried about what happens to YOU - however you come to those conclusions.

If it's all a childhood fantasy, why so worried? That's what I don't understand.

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #13)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 12:08 AM

35. I do believe you just answered his question

What is it with people who refuse to stand behind their beliefs?

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Response to Lordquinton (Reply #35)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 02:57 PM

82. I can think of three reasons

1. Fear of ridicule and bigotry: there are numerous posts by atheists who ridicule anyone who holds any religious belief. They don't just attack "religion."

2. Not wanting to offend others. One may hold a belief that others may feel is insulting (I.E. the fundamentalist Christian view that those who do not believe Jesus is the son of God are going to hell). Admitting that will result in immediate argument.

3. It's just not worth the debate. I fall into this category which also allows me to avoid 1. Some may find this next statement offencive but I genuinely believe that many are disinterested in understanding why others believe as they do. They do not seek to understand rather they seek to convert others into accepting their own views and conclusions. Some do this in a respectful manner while others will attempt gotcha strategies and shaming techniques. Other issues beyond religion fall into this model as well and I see it as becoming dar more common. We see just a few words written by someone or a few sentences spoken and that is enough to summarize an entire person's worth and value. It's moral superiority and I loath it.

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Response to tymorial (Reply #82)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 03:28 PM

83. No side will 'win' this debate in essence.

It will go on into forever until a personal or corporate resolution comes.

Regardless, with assistance I strive to 'see' the opposing/other side with charity and 'love' in my heart. It's not my place to suffer any offenses.

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Response to sprinkleeninow (Reply #83)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 05:21 PM

88. Understanding is necessary for compassion

That does not mean compassion is always expected or will/would be offered. I try to offer compassion and find something in everyone, even if that something is very small. It is difficult and I often fail. People like Trump make it incredibly difficult and I have all but given up on trying to find any shred of redeemable quality in the man. His actions are the antithesis of everything I believe but I still believe all life has value even if that life disagrees with me.

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Response to tymorial (Reply #88)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 10:44 PM

89. All life has 'value', but one must draw the line with regards to

agonizing over those who seemingly have no redemption. I said 'seemingly'. It's not for us to say.

There was one, and I most assuredly say one and only one moment since November 8th that a hairbreadth of, I'll use 'pity' that surfaced in me when I viewed *him* on TV or in a still somewhere. It lasted a millisecond if that.

Some here may think, "What the heck is wrong with her." In that moment he might have evoked a semblance of someone familiar to me, but of a memorable recollection. Not in a way resembling anything 'he' embodies.

I am aggrieved by what our nation is being turned into. After educating myself, I realize this didn't just suddenly come into being. Decades ago. It is disturbing to an immeasurable degree to sense the US has assimilated behavior like, (comes to mind), a certain imelda and her shoe collection.

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #13)

Mon Oct 23, 2017, 10:03 AM

94. Then why not just answer the question?

I honestly, sincerely don't give a rat's ass what you think is going to happen to me after I die.

What I do care about is how belief about the afterlife affects how people treat each other. As I pointed out to you in the past, the ultra-harmful "pray away the gay" camps are a direct result of nosy Christians not wanting homosexual individuals to sin and burn and hell. They want to "save" them. That's why I'm concerned. Do you understand?

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Response to trotsky (Reply #94)

Mon Oct 23, 2017, 10:13 AM

95. This is the same thing as the broad brush aimed at Islam.

Take extreme excess by a few and apply it to the whole.

How is it possible a large group or institution has a few really screwed-up members? Well - it does, just like in every facet of our society.

What percentage of Christians is represented by Westboro Baptist Church?

Yet everyone knows Westboro Baptist Church. Amazing.

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #95)

Mon Oct 23, 2017, 10:18 AM

96. Non sequitur.

And it isn't broad-brushing to ask you a question. Can you answer it? Why do you refuse?

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Response to trotsky (Reply #94)

Mon Oct 23, 2017, 10:36 AM

98. "Non sequitur"?

"Pray away the gay camps"?

And your fixated, repeated desire seems to be to identify ME as one of THEM?

My "dog in this hunt" is this new "Democratic value (?)" of intolerance towards groups of people WE NEED to achieve our goals.

Including valuing freedom of speech, freedom of association and FREEDOM OF RELIGION.

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #98)

Mon Oct 23, 2017, 10:39 AM

99. Yep.

I mentioned those camps because you asked me why I cared what people thought was going to happen to me in the afterlife. It's a crystal clear example of what those beliefs can lead to.

I have no clue what you are, that's why I'd like you to answer the question. But you still refuse.

I'm not comfortable welcoming religious bigots into our big tent.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #99)

Mon Oct 23, 2017, 10:47 AM

101. That's my point.

You are identifying people of any kind of faith in something you find reprehensible or unbelievable as the norm for that faith, and then excluding them from your association.

You don't want a Big Tent - you want a tiny tent with locked doors.

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #101)

Mon Oct 23, 2017, 10:49 AM

103. I find religious bigotry reprehensible. Yep. Guilty as charged.

I'm not calling it the "norm," that is YOU creating a straw man.

You're still avoiding answering the question. Why? Are you ashamed of your answer?

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #7)

Fri Oct 20, 2017, 05:05 PM

10. Do you think that, yallerdawg?

Lots of Christians do believe that all non-Christians are going to hell, so I'm curious if you believe that, too.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #10)

Fri Oct 20, 2017, 05:22 PM

12. Sometimes they try to sugar-coat it.

It's not that god is SENDING you to hell, you see. You *chose* to be separated from god, which in the eternal afterlife will be a horrible way to spend it. Hellish, one might say. Or you'll just be destroyed while good Christians like yallerdawg smile in heaven at the thought that everyone who didn't believe as they did is gone.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #12)

Fri Oct 20, 2017, 05:40 PM

14. It does seem pretty clear that many Christians

really get their jollies fantasizing that everyone they don't like will be tortured for eternity, while they get to watch. I have no idea if yallerdawg is one of those. I'll have to wait for a Yes or No answer to my question - although then, if the answer is Yes, I suppose I'd have to ask for yallerdawg's particular interpretation of hell. Sigh. Given how so many Christians just flat refuse to answer simple, straightforward questions about their faith, I'm not optimistic.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #14)

Fri Oct 20, 2017, 05:52 PM

15. My issue is rabid, virulent religious intolerance.

I have never identified myself as a 'Christian.'

That label has been applied because I disagree with someone else's opinions and interpretations.

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #15)

Fri Oct 20, 2017, 06:13 PM

16. So, do you think non-Christians go to hell? nt.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #16)

Fri Oct 20, 2017, 06:24 PM

17. Do you think you could be...

reincarnated as a cockroach?

If you don't believe it, what does it matter?

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #17)

Fri Oct 20, 2017, 08:31 PM

29. Like I said, I'm curious.

I'm also curious why you don't want to answer a simple Yes or No question.

I'll answer your simple Yes or No question. No.

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #15)

Fri Oct 20, 2017, 06:27 PM

18. Religious intolerance is usually a one way street

Especially the rabid, virulent type.

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Response to Cartoonist (Reply #18)

Fri Oct 20, 2017, 06:33 PM

19. No, you're referring to twisted ideology.

The vast majority of people who practice a religion go through life without rabid, virulent religious intolerance.

As much as many wish it weren't so.

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #19)

Fri Oct 20, 2017, 07:39 PM

20. Still a one way street

And don't hand me that crap about how rabid people aren't really religious. It's religion that fuels the virulence.

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Response to Cartoonist (Reply #20)

Fri Oct 20, 2017, 07:41 PM

21. You really don't like my opinion, do you?

Is your religion fueling this?

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #21)

Fri Oct 20, 2017, 07:44 PM

22. I disagree with it

Don't get rabid with me.

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Response to Cartoonist (Reply #22)

Fri Oct 20, 2017, 07:48 PM

23. We have examples of totalitarian states...

100% anti-religion.

Banned, outlawed and persecuted practicing any religion.

NOT a one-way street.



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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #23)

Fri Oct 20, 2017, 07:53 PM

24. Let me know

When you find one that burned people at the stake.

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Response to Cartoonist (Reply #24)

Fri Oct 20, 2017, 08:17 PM

25. Baking people in ovens close enough?

'Burned at the stake' was more of an individual punishment for a perceived crime rather than a blanket means of intolerance for a religious choice.

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #25)

Fri Oct 20, 2017, 08:55 PM

31. Forgive me, but you say "ovens" and I can't think of anything but the Holocaust.

Given that SS regulations explicitly barred atheists from membership, I know they can't be who you're talking about. Who else made a habit of burning people like that?

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Response to Pope George Ringo II (Reply #31)

Fri Oct 20, 2017, 09:06 PM

32. They weren't burning atheists in the ovens.

And the Nazi regime was as anti-religious as any of the totalitarian states of the time.

NOT A ONE-WAY STREET, no matter how much 'confirmation bias' you can stretch for.

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #32)

Fri Oct 20, 2017, 09:44 PM

33. You want to talk about Stalin or Mao, you might have something

Granted, I've never heard of either killing anyone over theological differences, but they were atheists and their hands were bloody enough. Mao's sparrow crusade was astonishingly costly, and Stalin thought roving gangs of cannibals in the Ukraine was an improvement. In those cases, we've made a start by at least talking about atheists who actually did murder people, even if religion doesn't appear to have been involved in their killings.

But you're talking about atrocities committed by an organization whose regulations explicitly required religious affiliation of some sort. What could that possibly have to do with your point about atheist regimes persecuting the religious? Hitler thanked "divine providence" for his survival on multiple occasions. I admit that Hitler certainly seems to have, ahem, defined christianity just for himself and I'd really hesitate to say he was orthodox enough to really fall under any particular church's doctrine even if he claimed to be catholic, but he was still almost certainly a christian and definitely a theist. We know Himmler and Heydrich were theists because the regulations Himmler drew up demanded it. Of all the genocidal regimes of the last century, this is the one which we are absolutely certain wasn't atheist and does your argument no good whatsoever. Bluntly, all the facts on this one are known, and they all say you picked the wrong horse.

Oh, and they did burn some atheists in the ovens. Some of the people with pink triangles were atheists, as were some of the people with yellow stars, just to name two groups. Dying was the extent of atheist involvement in the Holocaust. Again, this is the one example which definitely does not further your argument that atheists have committed atrocities against the religious.

Seriously, try Stalin or Mao if you want to at least make it as far as finding atheists who were bad guys. But Hitler made his theism nearly as clear as his antisemitism and it's a losing proposition even trying anything so far removed from reality.

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Response to Pope George Ringo II (Reply #33)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 12:21 AM

38. Nazis, fascists and Hitler were a religious movement.

That's what you believe.

Funny how that gets missed in the general historical record of the evil related to this regime.

'Confirmation bias.'

Next, you'll tell me Donald Trump is a great religious figure! As he feigns Christianity. And surrounds himself with televangelists.

Anything for the cause!

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #38)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 06:44 AM

44. Well, it's certainly in the general historical record

It's almost like the problem is with the people who miss it rather than the existence of the information. No, wait. It's exactly like that.

I first learned of the SS prohibition against atheists while reading Kurt Meyer's memoirs. He tells some whoppers in there--nearly half as big as your tales about atheists involved in the Holocaust--about the SS not getting priority for men or equipment, but his comments on atheism have been supported. Padfield's biography of Himmler mentioned his frequent comments that atheists did not have the moral requirements to commit genocide. Hitler's views on religion were a bigger part of Toland's and Kershaw's biographies than most of the others. Kershaw in particular ran with it for his view of Hitler as having a "drummer" phase before the "called by god" phase. Incidentally, the two-volume Kershaw set is probably the best biography of the man, with apologies to Snyder's dual Hitler/Stalin biography. The substance of the SS regulations I've already told you about twice are a historical document and available to anybody who can google them for 5 seconds. Here. Let me help:

On October 13, 1933, Deputy Führer Rudolf Hess issued a decree stating: "No National Socialist may suffer any detriment on the ground that he does not profess any particular faith or confession or on the ground that he does not make any religious profession at all." However, the regime strongly opposed "Godless Communism" and all of Germany's freethinking (freigeist), atheist, and largely left-wing organizations were banned the same year.

In a speech made during the negotiations for the Nazi-Vatican Concordant of 1933, Hitler argued against secular schools, stating: "Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith." One of the groups closed down by the Nazi regime was the German Freethinkers League. Christians appealed to Hitler to end anti-religious and anti-Church propaganda promulgated by Free Thinkers, and within Hitler's Nazi Party some atheists were quite vocal in their anti-Christian views, especially Martin Bormann. Heinrich Himmler, who himself was fascinated with Germanic paganism, was a strong promoter of the gottgläubig movement and he did not allow atheists into the SS, arguing that their "refusal to acknowledge higher powers" would be a "potential source of indiscipline"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany#Atheists Their cite is Michael Burleigh

Many of the concepts promoted with the SS violated accepted Christian doctrine, but neither Himmler nor his deputy Heydrich expected the Christian church to support their stance on abortion, contraception or sterilization of the unfit – let alone their shared belief in polygamy for the sake of racial propagation. This did not however represent disbelief in a higher power from either man nor did it deter them on their ideological quest. In fact, atheism was banned within the SS as Himmler believed it to be a form of egotism that placed the individual at the center of the universe, and thus constituted a rejection of the SS principle of valuing the collective over the individual. All SS men were required to list themselves as Protestant, Catholic or gottgläubig ("Believer in God". Himmler preferred the neo-pagan "expression of spirituality". Still, by 1938 "only 21.9 percent of SS members described themselves as gottgläubig, whereas 54 percent remained Protestant and just under 24 percent Catholic." Belief in God among the SS did not constitute adherence to traditional Christian doctrine nor were its members consummate theologians, as the SS outright banned certain Christian organizations like the International Bible Research Association, a group whose pacifism the SS rejected. Dissenting religious organizations like the Jehovah's Witnesses were severely persecuted by the SS for their pacifism, failure to participate in elections, non-observance of the Hitler salute, not displaying the Nazi flag, and for their non-participation in Nazi organizations; many were sent to concentration camps where they perished. Heydrich once quipped that any and all opposition to Nazism originated from either "Jews or politicized clergy."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideology_of_the_SS The cite for atheism is Buchheim in that pesky historical record.

Remember those "godless communists" the Nazis had such a problem with?

In a speech made later in 1933, Hitler claimed to have "stamped out" the atheistic movement. The word Hitler used in this speech, "Gottlosenbewegung", means "Godless Movement" in German, and it refers to the communist freethought movement, though it might not refer to atheism in general.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists#Nazi_Germany

How about the way the Wehrmacht oath changed in 1933 from

I swear loyalty to the Reich's constitution and pledge, that I as a courageous soldier always want to protect the German Reich and its legal institutions, (and) be obedient to the Reichspräsident and to my superiors.

to

I swear by God this holy oath, that I want to ever loyally and sincerely serve my people and fatherland and be prepared as a brave and obedient soldier to risk my life for this oath at any time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichswehreid

Because the way you (not the rest of us, just you apparently) tell an atheist is the way he runs around putting god in everything.

You want some awesome photos of "atheist" SS troops wearing their fezzes, reading books like "Islam und Judentum" and kneeling on their prayer mats while facing Mecca?

http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/










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Response to Pope George Ringo II (Reply #44)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 09:57 AM

48. I guess maybe I must have some kind of reading disorder?

From your same reliable sources:

Adolf Hitler's religious beliefs have been a matter of debate; the wide consensus of historians consider him to have been irreligious and anti-Christian. In light of evidence such as his vocal rejection of the tenets of Christianity as a teenager, numerous private statements to confidants denouncing Christianity as a harmful superstition, and his strenuous efforts to reduce the influence and independence of Christianity in Germany after he came to power, Hitler's major academic biographers conclude that he was irreligious and an opponent of Christianity. Historian Laurence Rees found no evidence that "Hitler, in his personal life, ever expressed belief in the basic tenets of the Christian church". Hitler's remarks to confidants, as described in the Goebbels Diaries, the memoirs of Albert Speer, and transcripts of Hitler's private conversations recorded by Martin Bormann in Hitler's Table Talk, are further evidence of his irreligious and anti-Christian beliefs; these sources record a number of private remarks in which Hitler ridicules Christian doctrine as absurd, contrary to scientific advancement, and socially destructive.

While a small number of writers accept publicly stated views as genuine expressions of his spirituality, the vast majority believe that Hitler was skeptical of religion generally, but recognized that he could only be elected and preserve his political power if he feigned a commitment to and belief in Christianity, which the overwhelming majority of Germans believed in.[13] Hitler himself told confidants that his reluctance to make public attacks on the Church was not a matter of principle, but a pragmatic political move. In his private diaries, Goebbels wrote in April 1941 that though Hitler was "a fierce opponent" of the Vatican and Christianity, "he forbids me to leave the church. For tactical reasons."

Citations, sourcing and much, much more at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #48)


Response to yallerdawg (Reply #48)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 12:22 PM

58. It certainly appears to be some kind of reading disorder.

You may recall that after your "No True Scotsman" on twisted ideology, you incorrectly included the Third Reich in a list of governments which banned all religion and persecuted its adherents. I've demonstrated why that's wrong by pointing out how you had it backward and the elite SS were actually required to have a religion.

You're now attempting to say something about the only guy in the government not actually subject to the regulation requiring the elite to participate in the very thing you had backwards and said his regime somehow prohibited and persecuted. Even if you were right (you're not), it doesn't do a thing to support your claim that religion was prohibited in a regime which we've already shown actually required it among the elite.

What you have actually produced was a site which concluded (correctly) that you were wrong and that Hitler's religious views were very strange and over time migrated toward completely insane. "Deist" is mentioned, and it's as plausible as anything. You have not actually produced any evidence he was genuinely an atheist, though, because he really wasn't one. And even if you did invent such evidence, we're back to the fact that his murderous elites were required to be religious in any event, so your original mistake is still wrong.

The site also concluded (correctly) that Hitler was among the many dictators who feared competing power bases and was anti-clerical. Heck, Akhenaten was anti-clerical and still managed to invent monotheism, so I'm not sure what this one would prove even if you had a point. Hitler didn't want no religion, but wanted a church under his control and teaching his message, so he's really not much different from Henry VIII on this subject. Abortion, polygamy, that sort of stuff.

Again, the Third Reich was not a hotbed of atheism. Jews and Jehovah's Witnesses were obviously among the worst off, but Atheists were more persecuted than generic christians, so the facts directly contradict what you've been saying. Hurling around baseless slander doesn't change that.





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Response to Pope George Ringo II (Reply #58)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 12:53 PM

62. I'm MSNBC.

You're Fox News.

I reckon we aren't reading the same words, and I have no idea where you're "quoting" me on what I have never said - or disputing what a source actually says (why you're Fox )

Millions of Christians and Catholics were killed by the Nazi regime.

The entire purpose of this portion of this thread is in response to the stipulation earlier that nothing compares to "burning at the stake," that the intolerance found in religion is a "one way street."

I guess if this new assertion that Nazi fascism was in the name of God was true, and atheists were most heinously targeted, I would certainly be willing to "fall for anything."

I'm not.

You're wrong.

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #62)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 01:05 PM

64. Not quite what the facts support.

I'm right.

You're lying.

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Response to Pope George Ringo II (Reply #64)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 01:08 PM

66. Uh-huh.

You're Fox News.

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #66)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 01:18 PM

70. You sure sound more like an Infowars headline

Atheist conspiracy: "Theist with poorly-defined views murders millions of christians." Tantrum to follow.

Seriously. You have nothing whatsoever to support the idea that the Third Reich is any kind of anti-theist crusader, yet you insist Hitler was an atheist who wanted nothing more than to murder christians. You cite one irrelevant page which boils down do "Dude was crazy and insecure" and use that as justification for slandering anybody who disagrees with you in a dishonest "guilt by association." Their leader's own words, the regulations of the murderous gang, and even the body count all contradict your claims, but you continue because it's so important to you to lie and associate Hitler with Atheists. It's frankly appalling.

I'm done with you.

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Response to Pope George Ringo II (Reply #70)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 01:24 PM

71. You're done with me?

I win!

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #32)

Fri Oct 20, 2017, 11:35 PM

34. They didn't kill Jews for practicing Judaism.

It wasn't really about religion. They considered Jews to be a separate race. If a Christian or atheist or whatever else had Jewish ancestors, they got sent to the gas chambers, too.

Jews were a very convenient target, because so many Christians already hated them.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #34)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 12:23 AM

39. Killing millions of Jews and Catholics wasn't about religion.

Hmmm.

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #39)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 12:50 AM

42. Killing millions of Jews wasn't about religion.

Catholics were a significant percentage of the population of Germany. Jews (and descendants of Jews) comprised less than one percent. There was no attempt to exterminate the Catholic population of Germany or of any other country the Nazis controlled.

Catholic clergy who opposed the regime were imprisoned in concentration camps, just like anyone else who opposed the regime, and many of them died there, just like anyone else who opposed the regime. Some of the Catholics who were killed were of Jewish descent and were killed for that reason.

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #39)

Sun Oct 22, 2017, 09:54 AM

90. Thats a pathetic fallacy.

Millions of Jews murdered: 6.
Millions of Catholics murdered: 0.

You’ve deliberate conflated the genocide of people who were ethnically Jewish and the political assasination of a small number of Catholic dissidents. You’ve attempted to put Catholics into the holocaust, but they aren’t there. They don’t show up on any of the historical accountings.

You’ve done the classic double down on an egregiously wrong post.

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #32)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 12:13 AM

37. Now you're actually flat out wrong

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Response to Lordquinton (Reply #37)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 12:36 AM

41. Interesting this is an OP about the appeal of "witchcraft and astrology."

The idea that the appurtenances of religion could be usurped for nefarious, evil purposes - what often appears in black magic - could not be appropriated by the Nazi's as a tool of their promotion of the fascist State above all else is a possible misconception?

All I know is, there has never been a serious argument I ever heard regarding the religious nature of Adolf Hitler, Goebbels, Himmler and all the other noted Nazi's.

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #41)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 07:52 AM

47. It got sidetracked with some ignorant slander accusing atheists of committing the Holocaust

Forget which Nazi said what. Forget reading tea leaves about who believed exactly what. Forget (this one is hard for a theist) that what you have heard and are willing to understand is not the definition of reality. Forget the word "argument." This is not an argument, this is a simple statement of one fact:

SS REGULATIONS FORBADE MEMBERSHIP TO ATHEISTS.

There can never be a truly serious argument supporting what you are claiming about atheists and the Holocaust as long as that fact exists. Alone it destroys your claims that atheists are responsible for the Holocaust, and you can't get around it.

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #41)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 04:15 PM

86. We almost made it a whole day without a no true scottsman fallacy

Oh well, try again tomorrow.

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Response to Lordquinton (Reply #37)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 06:48 AM

45. The first time he was wrong.

Repeating it after having been corrected is something else.

To be fair, the buckles on the guys actually engaged in genocide generally read, "My honor is loyalty."

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #54)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 12:25 PM

60. It wasn't relevant the first time, either.

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #32)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 12:22 PM

59. Not completely anti-religious, selective!

Heinrich Himmler, who himself was fascinated with Germanic paganism, was a strong promoter of the gottgläubig movement and he did not allow atheists into the SS, arguing that their "refusal to acknowledge higher powers" would be a "potential source of indiscipline".


The Deutsche Christen factions were united in the goal of establishing a national socialist Protestantism and abolishing what they considered to be Jewish traditions in Christianity, and some but not all rejected the Old Testament and the teaching of the Apostle Paul. In November 1933, A Protestant mass rally of the Deutsche Christen, which brought together a record 20,000 people, passed three resolutions:

Adolf Hitler is the completion of the Reformation,

Baptized Jews are to be dismissed from the Church

The Old Testament is to be excluded from Sacred Scriptures.

Hitler called a truce to the Church conflict with the outbreak of war, wanting to back away from policies which were likely to cause internal friction inside Germany. He decreed at the outset of war that "no further action should be taken against the Evangelical and Catholic Churches for the duration of the war". According to John Conway, "The Nazis had to reckon with the fact that, despite all of Rosenberg's efforts, only 5 percent of the population registered themselves at the 1930 census as no longer connected with Christian Churches." The support of millions of German Christians was needed in order for Hitler's plans to come to fruition. It was Hitler's belief that if religion is a help, "it can only be an advantage". Most of the 3 million Nazi Party members "still paid the Church taxes" and considered themselves Christians.

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #25)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 11:57 AM

51. Nazis were not atheists. And they didnt execute people

by baking them. They gassed or shot them and then cremated them to dispose of the bodies. Other than you got everything wrong, you made a fair point.

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #51)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 01:09 PM

67. It's all a guilt by association slander

He's had it explained to him that atheists were excluded from the SS, that Hitler wasn't an atheist, and he's still insisting that the Third Reich is evidence of intolerance for the religious because he'd rather slander people than have an honest discussion on reality.

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #19)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 12:11 AM

36. The Pope practices a "twisted ideology?"

The Pope has "rabid, virulent religious intolerance"? Interesting.

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Response to Lordquinton (Reply #36)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 12:28 AM

40. Who is the Pope killing?

The present pope has expressed his belief that Christ died for non-Christians, too. He has said you don't have to be a 'believer' to be saved.

Why are you all so lock-stepped in an old contempt for a religion that doesn't exist anymore - if your version ever did?

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #40)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 07:10 AM

46. Policies kill

Denying condoms that could prevent the spread of HIV has killed many.

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #40)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 11:59 AM

52. The RCCs anti condom policies killed lots of people

through hiv infections that could easily have been prevented.

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #52)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 12:15 PM

56. You actually believe that if something is a sin...

Catholics won't do it?

This isn't the Dark Ages. Hasn't been for centuries of sinning!

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #56)

Sun Oct 22, 2017, 09:57 AM

91. Omfg. You need to do minimal research before posting. The rcc

actively opposed distribution and education programs in Africa.

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #91)

Sun Oct 22, 2017, 10:39 AM

92. Why research?

It's so much easier just to make shit up.

I think the poster knows perfectly well that the RCC actively interferes with governments and secular organizations, and spends a great deal of money to influence laws and policies.

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #40)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 04:10 PM

85. The Pope's bigotry is well documented here

And elsewhere. There are many tenants of the RCC that are harmful and end up in people's deaths, not to mention their business in protecting and enabling child molesters.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #14)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 01:16 PM

68. I don't conclude that 'many' Christians get off on

fantasizing that.

I see them more just holding a superiority view that they're saved and gonna make it. Not particularly hoping for enemies to suffer an eternal fire of damnation.

If any do, that's dirty sick.

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Response to sprinkleeninow (Reply #68)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 02:30 PM

81. Maybe we've had different experiences with Christians.

Anyway, the whole religion is dirty sick. They love and serve a god who required the death by torture of an innocent man before he would forgive them for their sins - which he programmed them to commit in the first place. WTF? That's just disgusting. It's no wonder that some of them get a charge out of such violent imagery as their opponents roasting for eternity. They've been taught that this is a good and righteous thing.

You might remember that a majority of Christians in the US voted for Trump. In my opinion that doesn't just indicate some vague feeling of superiority over those of other faiths, or of no faith. That indicates malice.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #12)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 02:33 AM

43. It's me. The little wise guy truck driver.

Fear not. I 'll remember to send down to you a thirst quenching time traveled Martooni.

"Who luvs ya, baby!"

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Response to sprinkleeninow (Reply #43)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 12:16 PM

57. Tee

martoonies?? Gin or vodka? Olive or lime?

Feel the burn. Yum!

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Response to cilla4progress (Reply #57)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 01:05 PM

65. Thot I read feel the 'bum', then I expanded screen.

It's feel the 'burn'.

I send Stoli with love from the Carpathian Mountains. Na z'drovje!🍸

Ran out recently after stripping antique furniture.

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Response to sprinkleeninow (Reply #65)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 03:47 PM

84. Like!

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #4)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 11:53 AM

50. And noted psychologist likely relaxed each evening

with an alcoholic beverage, blind to the hypocrisy.

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Response to NRaleighLiberal (Reply #2)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 02:13 PM

79. Because the human mind

Has to face the reality that it will die.

That's hard.

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Response to yallerdawg (Original post)

Fri Oct 20, 2017, 08:24 PM

28. ...


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Response to yallerdawg (Original post)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 12:52 PM

61. but I though only boomers were into this nonsense

In the 1970s, I figured it was too much LSD

What's the excuse this time?

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Response to yallerdawg (Original post)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 12:54 PM

63. Sounds good to me! Religion is all fables, politics, superstitions and many out for money! n/t

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #63)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 01:33 PM

72. "Pick up the phone right now

and pledge $1,000 to my Church of the Sleep Number Mattress." 😇

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Response to sprinkleeninow (Reply #72)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 01:42 PM

73. That's a better deal than the preacher that wanted his flock to buy him an airplane. n/t

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #73)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 01:51 PM

74. After he got shouted down for avarice,

he muttered, "Let's get the flock outta here!" 😝

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Response to sprinkleeninow (Reply #74)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 01:53 PM

75. And said under his breath, "gotta find some dumber ones!" n/t

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #75)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 01:54 PM

76. Sheep led astray.

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Response to sprinkleeninow (Reply #76)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 02:04 PM

78. If one does' believe',

the written word clearly says 'the elect' will be more harshly judged.

The ones in authority, the ones that 'lead', the ones that 'supposedly' are representatives of their Shepherd.

It is written. Not my determination. (Scary.)

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Response to yallerdawg (Original post)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 01:18 PM

69. Great, they leave behind one fantasy world for another

I just don't understand why in the 21st Century with all we know about the archaeological record, confirmation bias, astronomy etc. that intelligent, even well-educated people fall for this stuff. I guess we haven't evolved that much in the last few thousands of years.

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Response to Bradshaw3 (Reply #69)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 02:29 PM

80. Agree. If "millennials are ditching religion for ...

witchcraft and astrology", has anything really changed? No.

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Response to yallerdawg (Original post)

Sat Oct 21, 2017, 05:15 PM

87. this isn't a millennial issue...(whoever they are)...

..in the 70s-80s everything was New Age-y and other spiritually alternative philosophies. Unfortunately some followed the leaders right to hell.

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Response to samnsara (Reply #87)

Sun Oct 22, 2017, 10:44 AM

93. Karl Paul knows his readers.

Ragging on millennials plays well with a lot of older people.

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