Speaking of religion, where does the concept of civil religion fit in?

[guillaumeb]

What is that concept, you might ask, and why does it fit?
Thank you for asking.

In brief:

American civil religion is a sociological theory that a nonsectarian quasi-religious faith exists within the United States with sacred symbols drawn from national history. Scholars have portrayed it as a cohesive force, a common set of values that foster social and cultural integration.......


According to Bellah, Americans embrace a common "civil religion" with certain fundamental beliefs, values, holidays, and rituals, parallel to, or independent of, their chosen religion. Presidents have often served in central roles in civil religion, and the nation provides quasi-religious honors to its martyrs—such as Abraham Lincoln and the soldiers killed in the American Civil War.

To read more:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_civil_religion

Civil religion substitutes country for a deity.
Civil religion substitutes a pledge of allegiance for prayer.
Civil religion substitutes Presidents and heroic figures for saints.
Civil religion substitutes a national anthem and patriotic songs for hymns.

In addition, as in all forms of tribalism, civil religion is a way of creating group identity, as well as a means of inspiring its adherents to bond against outsiders. In the case of civil religion, that unites citizens and allows the leaders to mobilize these citizens to act against perceived threats.

In the US, the civil religion allows the leaders to paint a picture of a country that is always threatened by others, thus justifying an almost constant state of war.

Most countries, probably all countries, employ a shared history and symbols to create a quasi-religious civil religion, and this is often used to justify wars. Making, in my view, civil religion the biggest contributor to global violence since tribes first formed.

[trotsky]

1. It should be noted that all of these:

Civil religion substitutes country for a deity.
Civil religion substitutes a pledge of allegiance for prayer.
Civil religion substitutes Presidents and heroic figures for saints.
Civil religion substitutes a national anthem and patriotic songs for hymns.

Are your personal interpretations/opinions and should be viewed as such.

You do not get to define "civil religion" for anyone but yourself. If you view presidents as saints, that's your thing.

But I'm glad that you agree, religion is a problem. ALL ideas must be questioned and doubted, and should only be accepted after sufficient evidence is presented.

[guillaumeb]

2. I provided a link.

while I agree with the concept, I first learned about it at school.

Edited to add:

I graduated in 1974, so this is not a new topic.

[trotsky]

7. So you agree with someone else who is defining a religion for others.

But you insist that you never define religion for others.

Got it.

[guillaumeb]

9. Perhaps you missed the point.

The point being, as far as I can determine, that humans need things that promote group cohesion.

If I were defining what exactly constitutes a patriotic citizen, you would have a valid argument. But I am not, I am merely observing and agreeing with what others have already observed.

[trotsky]

10. The point is, you agree that religion can be defined for others.

But don't agree that religion can be defined for others.

Yes, everyone here is well aware of your blatant double standard. It's why you aren't taken seriously.

[guillaumeb]

16. Thank you for your contribution to the dialogue.

[trotsky]

25. You are welcome for pointing out your inconsistency on this topic.

Anytime.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

3. Don't know why we need to call it a religion when those things fit the definition of culture.

Well, I mean I do know why people want to call so many things a religion (so they can say that people that aren't religious actually are), but we have a culture in the US that is different from other cultures. "Religion" might serve as a nice metaphor/allegory to help make sense of it, but it's just a culture.

[guillaumeb]

4. Patriotism is tribalism spread over a country.

And patriotism, or civil religion, or tribalism, or nationalism, all share things with religion. Culture is a component of tribalism and nationalism and patriotism. A shared experience.

[trotsky]

6. Tends to be the same people who want to call atheism a belief.

They do it to advance their personal agenda and protect their beliefs from criticism.

Funny thing is, they never follow out the logic to see why doing so ends up sabotaging what they sought to do in the first place.

So all that really needs to do be done is to point and laugh at them, I guess.

[Irish_Dem]

28. Because "patriotism" has become almost deified. We worship the military, the flag, etc.

We are told these are sacred. We must stand at attention to salute the flag or it is a sin.

[trotsky]

32. Key word here is "almost."

And it should be noted that those who seem to treat patriotism as a religion, already have a real religion. In the USA, that religion is Christianity.

[Act_of_Reparation]

5. We've gone over this before.

Civil Religion is a quasi-religion that runs parallel to actual, bona fide religions. Nothing has been "substituted" because very nearly everyone buying into the Civil Religion also buys into their traditional spiritual religion as well.

[guillaumeb]

8. And religion/patriotism/tribalism has an important function.

Group cohesion and survival.

[trotsky]

12. However:

1) Those items are not equivalent, despite your belief they are.
2) There are forms of each that are more benign (or more dangerous) than others.
3) They are not the only ways to achieve group cohesion and survival.
4) The most dangerous forms of patriotism and tribalism are built upon a theistic religion, which provide them with features like divine authority and protection from criticism by way of logic and reason.

[guillaumeb]

17. Numbers 1, and 4 represent your personal opinion.

Thank you for your contribution.

[trotsky]

26. That means I have 50% fact in my post compared to your OP, which is 100% personal opinion.

Cool.

[Act_of_Reparation]

14. Not sure how that's relevant.

And I don't really care. Natural selection has been something of a non-issue since we started ploughing fields and building walls.

[Irish_Dem]

27. It is wired in for this reason.

The founding fathers separated church and state.
So patriotism became the new American religion.

[Act_of_Reparation]

33. No.

Nothing "became" anything. The same religions that existed prior to the Revolution existed after, with more or less the same popularity. The development of American Civil Religion has much more to do with the emergence of political parties and Manifest Destiny than secularism.

[snooper2]

29. not sure about all of that, but here is our civil religion flag

just FYI

[MineralMan]

11. "According to Bellah...."

I disagree. There's no cosmology or eschatology in this "religion" of Bellah's. It's not a religion. It is a social structure that some adhere to.

Without the two elements I mentioned, I can't see how it can be a religion at all.

But, you've tried this out before here.

You like Bellah's definition? You're welcome to it, but I don't, so it's not a commonly held definition.

[Lordquinton]

15. No afterlife either

plus it's based on physical things, not something that is claimed to exist, but no questions about it can ever be answered.

I still don't see why theists keep trying to turn everything into a religion, is it a limited view of the world? needing to drag everything down to the same level? Forcefully reframing the argument?

[guillaumeb]

18. Thank you for your contribution, consisting of your opinion.

[AtheistCrusader]

13. It's called Nationalism.

It's also why Stalin and Pol Pot aren't good examples of 'atheist' crazy murderers. They just made State theocracies modeled on things like what Stalin learned in seminary school.

[guillaumeb]

19. It is a good example of the dangers of simplistic analysis.

And all analyses that focus on one aspect of tribalism and attempt to present it as "the most" destructive, rather than acknowledging that all aspects of tribalism can be destructive.

[ExciteBike66]

20. Wouldn't that make your religion "non-civil"? ;)

"Most countries, probably all countries, employ a shared history and symbols to create a quasi-religious civil religion, and this is often used to justify wars. Making, in my view, civil religion the biggest contributor to global violence since tribes first formed."

This is all true, except you are forgetting that throughout 99/100ths of world history, civil-tribal leadership specifically claimed a right to rule that derived from religion. "Civil" religion has almost always been based on "Religious" religion.

That said, I am not one of those atheists who think there would be no war without religion.

[Voltaire2]

21. We are still looking for the atheist who thinks that there would be no war without religion.

Rumors are that this atheist is hiding in or near a haystack.

[ExciteBike66]

22. If said atheist is hiding in a haystack...

then one could call him a "strawman", no?

[edhopper]

24. LOL

[trotsky]

31. Perfect. n/t

[edhopper]

23. It's just a theory

actually it's not even a real theory.
Just expanding the definition of a social structure to encompass other similar constructs.

meh

[guillaumeb]

34. And recognizing how behavior is influenced by this concept.

"Us" versus "others".

[edhopper]

35. That's fine

but broadening the definition of religion this much just dilutes what a religion is.

The idea that other social interactions have similarities to religion is obvious,

So, meh.

[Lordquinton]

36. You can draw parallels all day

But in the end it's just a comparison. Serves the same role of framing atheism as a religion. Forces the argument on to their turf where they get to use all the "you can't know for sure" and all the unique definitions that have been so common recently.

It's like that saying about bringing you down to their level and beating you with experience.