Reiteration: Atheism is Not a Unified Thing

[MineralMan]

Category 1: Many religionists tend to think of Atheism of the Big A variety. They mean what is sometimes called the "New Atheism," which often takes the form of activism against organized religion and attempts to disprove things. There are people who do that among atheists, but they aren't anything like a majority of atheists. In fact, "New Atheists" are probably the smallest category of atheism, if not the quietest. Many are highly educated, as well as being excellent speakers and writers. Their voices are louder than their numbers are large.

Category 2: There is also what I call "Passive Atheism." That category probably describes the vast majority of atheists, who simply don't believe in supernatural entities or any other occult occurrences. They're not itching for a fight with religionists, and probably won't even get into a discussion with them if they try to start one. Their non-belief is sufficient for their needs, and isn't really a matter for discussion. They don't really care what you think.

Category 3: There are other categories of atheists. Some atheists will be happy to discuss non-belief and compare it to anyone's religion. Most of these are familiar with the major religions and their doctrines and scriptures. They can jump into the conversation armed with a good deal of knowledge. This group doesn't really care what you believe, but will be happy to explain to you things you might not realize about your beliefs. You will often find people in this category involved in discussions of religion, wherever they might occur.

Category 4: Another category is the "Leave Me the Heck Alone" atheist. This category includes people who are dead-set on nobody being pressured by religionists. They also don't care what you believe, as long as you keep it to yourself and don't impose it on others. This category is fairly inclusive, and is embraced by many other types of atheists. This category can be downright militant about their right not to be coerced by religionists in any way. They don't want to hear your prayers at public meetings. They don't want your religion presented to their children or any other children in your public schools. They don't want your 10 Commandment monuments in the public square, either. They want everyone to be "Left the Heck Alone" to determine their own thinking on such subjects, thank you very much. They will take you to court about this, and they'll win.

What kind of atheist am I? I fit into the last two categories quite neatly.

[BigmanPigman]

1. I have been each of these at differemt times in my life.

I guess I am classified as "All Of The Above".

[MineralMan]

2. I've never been a Big A Atheist.

I see no point to it. I'm not into evangelism for a non-belief in any way. In some ways, I find that to be as noxious as religious evangelism.

But, I've been all three of the others. These days, I'm the last two. Throughout, I've been in the final category, and am adamant about that.

I try very hard not to be obnoxious about atheism, though. That never works.

[OriginalGeek]

86. I've certainly been called a big A Hole atheist

Usually by my wife. We have fun.

[MineralMan]

87. A point of pride, then...

[DetlefK]

3. I guess many people are passive atheists.

Their lack of belief is not rooted in some religious/philosophical argument that convinced them. They simply don't care.

I'm a category 2 atheist: loves to discuss but itsn't really bothered by religion.

And I can't stand category 3. It's one thing to have a religious opinion and talk about it. It's another thing to offend everybody because you're trying to make a point.



Reminds me of a joke:
Q: How do you find the vegan at a party?
A: You don't have to find him. He will tell you about it.

[ExciteBike66]

4. Wait, which category 3 are you talking about?

I'm confused by the lack of labels in the OP, maybe.

[MineralMan]

6. I added labels. The first category is the first paragraph.

Sorry for not labeling well.

[DetlefK]

7. The "Leave me the heck alone atheists".

You know...

[MineralMan]

9. Nope. Such atheists would never advertise their atheism.

They are silent unless First Amendment rights are the topic. Then they speak up.

[ExciteBike66]

12. I understand why you would not like those guys,

but I think that in the context of the OP they would actually be category 1 (New Atheists).

[MineralMan]

17. Yes. Category 1 is the only category that makes a nuisance

of itself. Category 4 is silent unless religionists attempt to impose belief on non-believers. Then it speaks, usually through legal action. Otherwise, you wouldn't even know.

[whathehell]

28. No, I think you mean those designated by the OP as "new atheists"...

They're the ones best illustrated by the boy in the T shirt -- They are the noisy, insulting types frequently found on DU -- those who won't leave you "the heck alone" if you're not an atheist.

[Moostache]

5. There is never a happy medium with the believers...of any organized cult/religion.

They do not want to have a chance to tell you what they believe or a safe venue to congregate with like-minded people; they want the chance to tell you WHAT to believe, HOW to believe, WHEN and WHERE to believe and most importantly they desire that POWER over others more than anything else (even those that are reticent to admit it to themselves or others).

Anything that is discordant with their beliefs puts you into the category of moral deviant and unworthy of the same respect they feel entitled to just by name dropping their selected fantasy character - be that Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, Thor, Zeus, Osiris, or the FSM (although I must admit, the lure of his noodly appendage is strong).

To me it really is quite simple, treat your religion with the same decorum and demureness that responsible men treat their penis - they are very proud of it, take great lengths to protect and nourish it and they love it; they do not whip it out in public to show everyone and they NEVER share it with children or try to coerce others into "enjoying" it either.

For the faithful who can clear that hurdle, please proceed with whatever batshit crazy fantasy you wish...for those that can't, well, castration is always an effective deterrent.

[MineralMan]

11. The Flying Spaghetti Monster is the only

deity one can actually eat without some magical transubstantiation. The FSM has that in its favor, although I doubt its god-like powers.

[Permanut]

13. I didn't know one could actually EAT the FSM..

this changes everything!

[MineralMan]

15. Shredded Parmesan Is Optional

when taking part in communion with the FSM.

[Moostache]

14. Gah! Clutch the pearls!!! One must never ingest the FSM!!!

The reformation league of Pastafarians, Eastern feast of the Central States in South America for 2011 declared, in the Diet of Worms (no Catholic pun intended...LOL) that for one to ingest any part of the FSM, they would be cast out into the eternal pit of Marinara Sauce and sufffer an endless simmering!!!

Repent and take in much Garlic Bread as penance for your transgressions before its too late!

Oh damn....there I go slipping into religion on myself again...d'oh!

[MineralMan]

16. If one cannot ingest the FSM, what then is the point

of having a delectable deity? I reject such notions and suggest that the only proper worship is to put the FSM inside yourself, so you will truly have inner peace.

[Permanut]

8. Well written, MineralMan..

I'm an agnostic. I don't have enough information to conclude whether or not there is a Swiss watchmaker behind this elegant, beautiful universe. Don't need to know, really. I belong to a Lutheran church, as a way to participate in their community service to the poor, but I"m a really poor Lutheran.

Those you describe above, and now including you, are among those who I have in mind when I no longer say the Pledge of Allegiance ("..with liberty and justice for all.. , or sing the national anthem ("..o'er the land of the free..&quot ,

And just because I add this every chance I get, to any conversation where I can wedge it in, this is NOT a Christian nation.

[MineralMan]

10. Thanks. I appreciate it!

[sfwriter]

18. Many Cat 2 atheists are regular churchgoers...

I've met them in all faiths. They may cling to a belief in the "social good" of religion while denouncing every supernatural aspect of faith. I've seen interviews with some who are self-aware enough to know that they need the structure, family ties, contacts, or the social legitimacy of religion and thus stay in it. But make no mistake, they are atheists. In some locals and some cultures, faith is a requirement, and open atheism can result in ostracization, family alienation, or death.

[MineralMan]

19. Yes, there are atheists in every church.

More, probably, than anyone is aware of. Few, however, are vocal about it, even in private conversations. There are even atheists in the pulpit. Plenty of political figures, as well. Again, more than people know.

The social opportunities of church membership are enough to keep people involved in many cases.

[sfwriter]

20. We had a Unitarian minister become an outspoken atheist.

She said the frank and open discussions of a few of us "vocal" atheists gave her the courage to do it. And as a Unitarian, it didn't matter a wit. She could keep her job, her friends, and her standing. I learned to be an accepting atheist from that experience.

[Voltaire2]

21. There was a Cat 5 Atheist Event about 6 years ago.

It was truly horrifying. Nobody got out of it alive.

[MineralMan]

22. LOL!

Scary stuff...

[PragmaticDem]

23. In real life the atheists I know are calm and can debate intelligently, and often

know more about religion than believers. Internet atheists are well something different.

[Act_of_Reparation]

24. Virtually anyone you talk to in person will come off as more pleasant than they do on the internet.

Where they stand religiously is irrelevant.

[PragmaticDem]

25. Fair point.

But my experience on the internet talking religion with atheists and the religious have not been pleasant for the most part.

[Voltaire2]

29. Its important to feel superior.

[trotsky]

30. Time to dust this one off again:

https://xkcd.com/774/

[PragmaticDem]

31. I don't feel superior. I feel an understanding of others opinions is important.

[Voltaire2]

32. Sure. Which is why you categorized every atheist

in this forum as “something different.”

Or perhaps you misspoke?

[PragmaticDem]

33. Actually I said the internet.

My experience on the internet is not as pleasant talking religion. That includes both religious and atheists.

As to this room well as I said before it seems personalities and old scores gets in the way of debate.

[Act_of_Reparation]

34. This room is a subset of "the internet".

And I don't think old grudges are particularly common here. Only a few regular posters have spent considerable time posting here.

I'd say privilege and the determined will to deny it is a far most significant roadblock to productive debate in these parts.

[PragmaticDem]

35. Oh I definitely think people enjoy baiting and snark in here.

[Act_of_Reparation]

36. People enjoy baiting and snark everywhere.

Virtually every thread on DU has both in ample quantities.

[PragmaticDem]

37. True but we are talking about this room.

[Act_of_Reparation]

38. With the implication that this room is uniquely adversarial and unproductive.

[PragmaticDem]

39. It is uniquely adversarial.

Unproductive is in the eye of the beholder.

[Voltaire2]

42. oddly enough very few posts appear to get hidden in here

and those that do are generally from very new posters engaged in obvious nonsense.

[PragmaticDem]

45. No doubt the room gets it fair share of right wing trolls.

[AtheistCrusader]

56. Fortunately they get hidden or banned pretty quickly.

Can't have that kind of trash tracking mud all over.

[PragmaticDem]

57. Indeed!

[Act_of_Reparation]

43. Oh, please.

DU spent the past year banhammering posters left and right. The Primary group made this place look like the ball pit at the Greenwich, Connecticut Chuck E. Cheese.

[PragmaticDem]

44. Ok.

[trotsky]

78. Say, just curious...

you've been on DU less than a month, but you seem very comfortable making sweeping statements about this group as if you have a long history in it. Why is that?

[PragmaticDem]

81. I can read.

[AtheistCrusader]

82. keep reading, backwards in time.

Takes a good 10+ years for the conversation to get where it is now.

[PragmaticDem]

83. Ok.

[AtheistCrusader]

26. At times I fit into all four categories.

I tend to think of myself as an agnostic atheist. I could give two shits what any individual believes except in the following circumstances:

1. Political influence/government collusion/First amendment violations/Lemon test failures.
2. Fraud. Just outright ripping people the fuck off with religious guilt or lies.
3. Guilt. Trying to control people with guilt trips to modify behavior. Example; religious 'oooh well, abortion might be legal, but it should be rare because ooga booga' whatever. That kind of shit.

Unless we're talking an issue like those three, I don't engage people about their faith.

As for my agnosticism about religious claims, to be clear, current dominant religion claims are precisely as impressive to me, as a Christian is impressed by claims about gods like Odin, or Eris. Which is to say, not at all.

[Iggo]

68. Yep.

Depends on who the fuck I'm talking to.

[utopian]

27. I'm a 3/4

Mostly 4.

[MineralMan]

41. I listed all four types of which I am aware.

Your sarcasm notwithstanding. I wonder what your point might have been with that reply.

[guillaumeb]

47. I meant it seriously.

Self-awareness is an excellent virtue. If only we possessed it, true?

[MineralMan]

48. Perhaps you did.

BTW, I did not alert on your post. I never alert on replies to me.

[PragmaticDem]

49. It was a bad alert.

[MineralMan]

50. I would agree with that.

[trotsky]

51. It must have been.

I mean, only atheists are bad here, right?

For the jury that will probably get called for THIS post, this needs to be added:

[PragmaticDem]

52. That is not what he said.

And your bad atheists meme is getting old.

[trotsky]

58. Uh oh.

Guess that makes me a bad atheist for mentioning it?

(And BTW, I was referring not to the deleted post, but to yours. So maybe you should stop promoting the meme too?)

[PragmaticDem]

59. I don't think it is your atheism that makes you good or bad.

And I don't believe atheists are bad and my post doesn't say that.

[trotsky]

60. Sure you don't.

You just think "for the most part" it's those nasty atheists causing all the problems.

You're not fooling anyone other than yourself.

[PragmaticDem]

61. Let me know when you really want to discuss an issue instead of doing

what you are doing.

[trotsky]

62. And you do the same, instead of pretending to be above the fray...

and then making posts like #46.

I'll be happy to discuss any issue with you. Just don't be a religious bigot - I don't get along well with those.

[PragmaticDem]

63. Follow your own advice.

[trotsky]

64. If you have any evidence of me NOT doing so, please present it.

Like I did with you pointing out your post.

[PragmaticDem]

65. Point out where I am a religious bigot! Be specific!

[trotsky]

66. Um, what?

I pointed out where you failed to follow your own advice.

You claim you want serious discussion. So let's go. Show me what you're capable of.

[PragmaticDem]

67. I made a point about a certain group of atheists.

It was an honest criticism.

[AtheistCrusader]

69. Where is this group. Who?

Is this a real thing, or one of those straw things? You talking here, or elsewhere?

[trotsky]

71. No one has been identified.

So the group seems to be imaginary.

[PragmaticDem]

73. I made a point about group one in the op.

Not here but in general.

[trotsky]

70. Whether it was an "honest criticism" is still undetermined.

For now, it's only your personal opinion and shall be treated as such.

Still waiting for you to show me what real discussion looks like. Are you going to start soon? You claimed what's what you wanted, instead of this pointless back-and-forth snipping.

So let's go. Let's discuss something. Unless you really do like the back-and-forth snipping. I'll play the game you want until I get bored.

[PragmaticDem]

72. You started with me buddy.

Follow your own advice! Go on if you feel the need to, last word and all.

[trotsky]

74. I'm not your buddy, pal.

But thanks for demonstrating your claims were false. I sincerely offered to have this discussion you claimed you wanted, but you chose another path.

I'll be looking forward to your future posts, to see if they actually foster discussion or are just attacks like this. Take care.

[AtheistCrusader]

75. So that's a 'no' on the discussion then.

[PragmaticDem]

76. What do you want to talk about?

[AtheistCrusader]

77. Well, a lot of us self identified, but you seemed to cast shade on some of the categories.

It would be nice if you could (keeping in mind that some forms of direct criticism should be avoided lest someone alert) be a little more clear as to just whom your shade was targeted at.

[PragmaticDem]

80. I did. If you saw the hidden post you you would understand what my post was about.

[MineralMan]

55. It was. The post was not a personal attack on me.

It was a sarcastic comment that was more general than that.

[PragmaticDem]

46. For the most part group one.

The new atheists group for the most part.

[PJMcK]

53. I'll join you in Categories 3 & 4

Well written essay, MineralMan. I've enjoyed your religious-themed posts over the past several weeks.

[MineralMan]

54. Thank you. I'm trying to provide a slightly different perspective

in this group. Slightly. Thanks for your reply and kind words!

[Lordquinton]

79. We owe a lot to category 1

They brought a lot of people out of hiding, just standing up and saying "I'm an atheist" is still brave, but more accepted. Dawkins, Hitchens, and company really fostered what we have today.

So of course theists have to crap on them at every opportunity. They challenged religious privlige, so they must be eliminated. Good thing burning at the stake is no longer a thing...

[Mariana]

84. Yeah, but they're such a nuisance!

They're always doing mean, rotten things to religious people, like writing books, making speeches, putting up billboards, wearing T-shirts, you know, really awful stuff like that. Some of them even go so far as to file suit when some government entity violates the law. The horror!

[Lordquinton]

85. Cat 1 seems to be a leader type

If we were to flip the script it would be pointing at people like the Pope and dhali lama.