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Wed Jan 17, 2018, 02:38 PM

Why the dearth of atheist politicians?

Last edited Wed Jan 17, 2018, 07:25 PM - Edit history (1)

Here is what we know from surveys:
1. at least 10% of the population is atheist/agnostic
2. there is a strong correlation between level of education and not believing in god (calm down, I'm not arguing causation)

Given that there are upwards of 600 people in political positions in Washington DC, it would seem statistically that 60 of them would be atheists. And there should be more given the education levels of those people.

Yet there are fewer than a handful that openly identify as atheist. Why? I think it is political suicide to indicate that one is an atheist. So those that are (and there HAS to be that there are some) have to pass as believers. How does that add to the "see, religious people do great things" when that person may not actually be religious but just need to say they are to do the job they do?

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Reply Why the dearth of atheist politicians? (Original post)
Cuthbert Allgood Jan 2018 OP
rzemanfl Jan 2018 #1
Cuthbert Allgood Jan 2018 #6
rzemanfl Jan 2018 #10
hlthe2b Jan 2018 #2
Mariana Jan 2018 #5
guillaumeb Jan 2018 #12
trotsky Jan 2018 #13
guillaumeb Jan 2018 #14
guillaumeb Jan 2018 #15
trotsky Jan 2018 #16
guillaumeb Jan 2018 #17
trotsky Jan 2018 #40
Mariana Jan 2018 #37
guillaumeb Jan 2018 #45
Act_of_Reparation Jan 2018 #47
guillaumeb Jan 2018 #49
Act_of_Reparation Jan 2018 #50
guillaumeb Jan 2018 #53
Act_of_Reparation Jan 2018 #59
guillaumeb Jan 2018 #62
Act_of_Reparation Jan 2018 #65
Mariana Jan 2018 #89
marylandblue Jan 2018 #99
Mariana Jan 2018 #101
marylandblue Jan 2018 #105
trotsky Jan 2018 #102
Act_of_Reparation Jan 2018 #104
trotsky Jan 2018 #111
Act_of_Reparation Jan 2018 #120
Mariana Jan 2018 #122
Mariana Jan 2018 #123
Mariana Jan 2018 #124
Mariana Jan 2018 #125
trotsky Jan 2018 #126
Mariana Jan 2018 #127
Mariana Jan 2018 #128
Mariana Jan 2018 #129
Mariana Jan 2018 #130
Lordquinton Jan 2018 #92
trotsky Jan 2018 #52
guillaumeb Jan 2018 #57
trotsky Jan 2018 #63
guillaumeb Jan 2018 #71
trotsky Jan 2018 #74
guillaumeb Jan 2018 #75
Mariana Jan 2018 #97
guillaumeb Jan 2018 #107
Mariana Jan 2018 #109
guillaumeb Jan 2018 #112
Cuthbert Allgood Jan 2018 #55
guillaumeb Jan 2018 #58
Cuthbert Allgood Jan 2018 #60
guillaumeb Jan 2018 #64
Cuthbert Allgood Jan 2018 #67
guillaumeb Jan 2018 #73
trotsky Jan 2018 #69
trotsky Jan 2018 #68
Cuthbert Allgood Jan 2018 #7
guillaumeb Jan 2018 #18
Cuthbert Allgood Jan 2018 #23
guillaumeb Jan 2018 #25
Cuthbert Allgood Jan 2018 #26
guillaumeb Jan 2018 #31
MineralMan Jan 2018 #36
Act_of_Reparation Jan 2018 #51
guillaumeb Jan 2018 #56
Act_of_Reparation Jan 2018 #61
guillaumeb Jan 2018 #70
Cuthbert Allgood Jan 2018 #66
guillaumeb Jan 2018 #72
Lordquinton Jan 2018 #94
guillaumeb Jan 2018 #106
Lordquinton Jan 2018 #108
Lordquinton Jan 2018 #93
PJMcK Jan 2018 #3
Cuthbert Allgood Jan 2018 #8
PoliticAverse Jan 2018 #4
Cuthbert Allgood Jan 2018 #9
guillaumeb Jan 2018 #11
Mariana Jan 2018 #19
guillaumeb Jan 2018 #22
trotsky Jan 2018 #42
guillaumeb Jan 2018 #48
Lordquinton Jan 2018 #95
AtheistCrusader Jan 2018 #79
guillaumeb Jan 2018 #81
Lordquinton Jan 2018 #84
guillaumeb Jan 2018 #87
Lordquinton Jan 2018 #90
guillaumeb Jan 2018 #91
Mariana Jan 2018 #96
AtheistCrusader Jan 2018 #85
Lordquinton Jan 2018 #20
guillaumeb Jan 2018 #21
Cuthbert Allgood Jan 2018 #24
guillaumeb Jan 2018 #28
Cuthbert Allgood Jan 2018 #32
AtheistCrusader Jan 2018 #80
guillaumeb Jan 2018 #82
AtheistCrusader Jan 2018 #86
guillaumeb Jan 2018 #88
AtheistCrusader Jan 2018 #98
Cuthbert Allgood Jan 2018 #100
Act_of_Reparation Jan 2018 #103
FreepFryer Jan 2018 #27
Cuthbert Allgood Jan 2018 #29
FreepFryer Jan 2018 #30
Cuthbert Allgood Jan 2018 #33
FreepFryer Jan 2018 #34
Binkie The Clown Jan 2018 #35
Jim__ Jan 2018 #38
Cuthbert Allgood Jan 2018 #39
Jim__ Jan 2018 #46
Cuthbert Allgood Jan 2018 #54
trotsky Jan 2018 #44
Mariana Jan 2018 #41
Cuthbert Allgood Jan 2018 #43
Mariana Jan 2018 #76
Iggo Jan 2018 #77
Doodley Jan 2018 #78
rock Jan 2018 #83
Lordquinton Jan 2018 #110
trotsky Jan 2018 #115
Lordquinton Jan 2018 #116
Lordquinton Jan 2018 #118
trotsky Jan 2018 #119
struggle4progress Jan 2018 #113
Cuthbert Allgood Jan 2018 #117
struggle4progress Jan 2018 #121
Name removed Jan 2018 #114

Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Original post)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 02:53 PM

1. It's hard to get replies when you answer your own question. Correctly, I might add. n/t

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Response to rzemanfl (Reply #1)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 03:42 PM

6. Good point. But I could be wrong.

Happens a couple times a decade.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Reply #6)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 03:49 PM

10. Not this time IMO. I am reminded of what my long dead Bohemian immigrant

grandfather said in 1960. "I'll vote for Kennedy even though he's Catholic and I know he wouldn't vote for me if he knew I'd don't go to church."

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Original post)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 02:54 PM

2. How do we know there aren't more (atheist) politicians?

My guess is that many just don't talk about their beliefs (or lack thereof).... Do "closeted" atheists count?

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #2)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 03:07 PM

5. It's very hard to count them when we don't know who they are.

There are constantly posts on DU claiming that this or that rotten person is a "fake Christian" or some variation of that idea. The obvious implication is that those rotten people must be atheists. I think that's wrong. We shouldn't be trying to read people's minds, and we shouldn't try to judge whether or not people's professed faith is genuine. If someone claims to be a Christian, I think it's best always to assume that person is telling the truth. The same applies to people who claim to adhere to any other religion, or to no religion.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #5)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 05:11 PM

12. Amazing attempt at framing.

When you said:

There are constantly posts on DU claiming that this or that rotten person is a "fake Christian" or some variation of that idea. The obvious implication is that those rotten people must be atheists. I think that's wrong.


Constantly posts? Truly?

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #12)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 05:21 PM

13. Yes, constant.

And since you have stated others can use DU's search feature to find posts to back up your claims, you can swallow a dose of your own medicine and do the same for this.

That is, if you're NOT a raging hypocrite. Surely you aren't, right gil?

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Response to trotsky (Reply #13)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 05:24 PM

14. Amazing.

Truly amazing.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #13)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 05:25 PM

15. And this part is the most amazing:

The obvious implication is that those rotten people must be atheists. I think that's wrong.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #15)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 05:28 PM

16. If they're not believers, then what are they, gil?

What are they?

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Response to trotsky (Reply #16)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 05:29 PM

17. I am still recovering from my amazement.

It may take a while.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #17)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 09:48 AM

40. You take all the time you need.

I understand why you're using that as an excuse not to answer, though.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #12)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 08:01 PM

37. Please see the thread I've linked to

In which several posters either imply or just say outright that Paul Ryan is no Christian. The obvious implication is that he must be an atheist. I think it's wrong for them to do that. They can't read his mind, so they can't judge if his faith is genuine.

I suppose it's possible they think he's a follower of some religion other than Christianity, but they don't say what that might be.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1218266937

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Response to Mariana (Reply #37)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 11:34 AM

45. Saying he is no Christian does not imply that he is an atheist.

Ryan has stated that he is a Catholic. That is enough for me. While I disagree with his politics I accept that he is a Catholic.

But a few responses in one thread does not a constant message make.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #45)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 11:37 AM

47. You're being awfully pedantic for a guy who treats words like they have no objective meaning.

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #47)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 11:39 AM

49. Which ignores my actual point.

Perhaps because my point was correct.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #49)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 11:47 AM

50. My point is your point is pedantic bullshittery.

Your nitpicking obviously hyperbolic terms borders on gaslighting, and doesn't deserve to be addressed so much as it deserves to be laughed the fuck out of here with the utmost expedience.

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #50)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 11:50 AM

53. Weak attempt at deflection.

The poster made a very hyperbolic claim.
I pointed it out.
You did not like that.
Thus your attempt at deflection and name calling.

Amazing display on your part.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #53)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 12:02 PM

59. This is a web forum, not a fucking formal debate.

It is clear the poster is claiming "not a real Christian" is a very common reaction conservative Christians. It is clear the poster did not mean liberal Christians are literally constantly saying "not a real Christian" at all times.

Go sell your gaslighting somewhere else.

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #59)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 12:05 PM

62. Maybe you should read the poster's reply to me.

Complete with a link.

Sell your attempt at framing to another.

Given the number of times I have been asked why I used one word over another, the double standard is quite obvious.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #62)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 12:07 PM

65. Maybe you should read the poster's reply to you.

But I have a better idea.

Every time I find a poster call a Republican a fake Christian, I could PM you with a link. Maybe everyone else could to do the same. Once you've compiled your data, you can demonstrate to all of us how common this criticism is. Whaddya say?

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #65)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 07:41 PM

89. Good grief, you'd have no time to do anything else.

I wasn't exaggerating all that much when I said it was constant. I include those who put the word Christian in quotation marks when they're talking about a rotten person, because the implication of that is clear to everyone (except maybe to Gil), even if they don't say it outright. It's so common that most people don't even pay attention.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #89)

Fri Jan 19, 2018, 10:18 AM

99. I usually interpret it as calling them hypocrites

I don't know if people who say it have thought it all the way through to "they must be atheists." It seems mostly to be applied to people who are homophobic and anti-choice, but don't want to take care of the poor and the sick or are racist.

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Response to marylandblue (Reply #99)

Fri Jan 19, 2018, 10:51 AM

101. I've asked some of them to elaborate

when they say some rotten person is a fake Christian or they put the word Christian in quotes. None then said they really meant Christian hypocrites, but maintained that those rotten people are not Christians at all. When I ask what the rotten people are, if they aren't Christians, the posters generally refuse to answer.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #101)

Fri Jan 19, 2018, 12:10 PM

105. Heretics maybe?

There is a long Christian tradition of keeping a few heretics around just in case you need to excommunicate or burn someone.

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Response to marylandblue (Reply #99)

Fri Jan 19, 2018, 10:54 AM

102. I agree with you, I don't think many people do follow through on that.

By saying they're not Christians, they CLEARLY don't mean that they're Jews, Muslims, Hindus, or any specific religion.

They clearly mean they're not actually followers of the religion, i.e., are non-believers. It's just another part of the millenia-old hatred of and bias against atheists. People associate evil with non-belief. A lot of people do it subconsciously.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #62)

Fri Jan 19, 2018, 11:19 AM

104. Here's one

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #104)

Fri Jan 19, 2018, 04:42 PM

111. Well there ya go.

"Nothing But Fake Christians."

"They are NOT Christians in the truest sense of the word."

"They AREN'T Christians..."

Exactly what multiple people told gil. I suspect you will either get no response, or a lame attempt at deflection.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #53)

Tue Jan 23, 2018, 10:38 PM

122. There are a couple in this thread, so far.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #53)

Wed Jan 24, 2018, 02:36 PM

125. Faux Christians who are really agents of Satan.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #125)

Wed Jan 24, 2018, 02:47 PM

126. I wonder why gil hasn't acknowledged any of these?

Interesting.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #53)

Fri Jan 26, 2018, 01:04 PM

127. There are several instances in this thread.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #53)

Fri Jan 26, 2018, 04:33 PM

128. These assholes are not Christian!

along with several other similar posts in this thread.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210146118

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #53)

Fri Jan 26, 2018, 04:44 PM

129. These so-called "Christians"

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #53)

Fri Jan 26, 2018, 05:25 PM

130. These fake christians 'hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil'

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #49)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 09:23 PM

92. So ignored points are correct?

Considering you ignore points in every thread, there are a lot of correct points that people have on you.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #45)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 11:50 AM

52. What does it imply then?

That they're a Muslim?

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Response to trotsky (Reply #52)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 11:53 AM

57. Ask those who responded in that fashion.

And if they all respond that they feel he is an atheist, you might have a point.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #57)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 12:06 PM

63. You already claimed you know what they DIDN'T mean.

And now you respond with this bullshit.

No wonder no one takes you seriously.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #63)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 12:15 PM

71. And you misread my reply once again.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #71)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 12:37 PM

74. Oh no, I'm seeing everything perfectly clearly.

Perfectly. Clearly.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #74)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 12:40 PM

75. Right.

20/20.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #57)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 10:40 PM

97. I have asked some of the posters who say that.

Almost every time I've done so, they've refused to answer. Isn't that a surprise.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #97)

Fri Jan 19, 2018, 02:20 PM

107. I cannot answer for them, or for that.

Perhaps the general hostile tone exhibited by a very few in this group inhibits some from otherwise engaging.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #107)

Fri Jan 19, 2018, 04:22 PM

109. You might think that, but it's not true.

It happens much more often in General Discussion than it does in Religion, and that is mostly where I've asked posters to explain what they mean by it. So, the reason for their refusal to answer has nothing to do with what goes on in this group.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #109)

Fri Jan 19, 2018, 05:03 PM

112. They might feel unwilling to engage on that subject.

But neither of us can say what their motivations are, or might be. We might speculate.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #45)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 11:51 AM

55. So if you take him at his word, then he is a Christian.

So what do you say to those here on DU that say he isn't?

And how does saying he isn't a Christian by those here that say it NOT indicate he is then an atheist?

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Reply #55)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 11:55 AM

58. You are reading far too much into the available evidence.

I know a few people who are not Christians. Some are Muslims, some are atheists. One is a Buddhist and 2 are Jews.

Your final question is an interesting exercise in logic.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #58)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 12:04 PM

60. So in that thread when they say Ryan isn't a Christian, they mean he's a Jew?

Yeah. Sure. Sell that shit somewhere else. They mean he isn't religious. They mean he's an atheist. They are not arguing that he is just a different religion. Don't piss in my ear and tell me it's raining.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Reply #60)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 12:06 PM

64. Another interesting attempt.

So now you are a mind reader?

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #64)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 12:08 PM

67. You tell me. What are they saying then?

I've given you some options. You have given NOTHING that makes sense.

What does that OP and the other in that thread mean, then? Fill me in.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Reply #67)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 12:19 PM

73. Ask those who responded in that manner.

The same response I gave to another poster.

Alternatively, you can substitute what you feel they meant, and then condemn them for that.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #64)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 12:10 PM

69. You claimed to be, since you told us what they DIDN'T mean.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Reply #60)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 12:09 PM

68. Act_of_Reparation nailed it above.

He's using pedantic bullshit.

He's pointing out that "Logically, if you say someone isn't A, it doesn't mean they are B. They could be C, D, E, or so on." so he can look like he's proven his point.

But he's proven something that no one is disputing, as usual. Straw men are gil's best friends.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #2)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 03:43 PM

7. Certainly.

And kind of my point. But in this group we see posts of "awesome people of faith." Lately, a lot of them have been politicians. I'm not saying that the people used in those are actually atheist, but some of them have to be. Just made me think, I guess.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Reply #7)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 05:30 PM

18. "Some of them have to be".

Really? Why would you say this? That is an interesting line of reasoning on your part.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #18)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 07:17 PM

23. Well, I spelled it out in the OP, but here it is again.

10% report on polls as being atheist/agnostic. There is a high correlation between education level and atheism. SOOOOO, if you list 10 politicians, AT LEAST 1 should be atheist and probably more since there is a higher education in the political world.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Reply #23)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 07:20 PM

25. "Should be" is merely your own wish.

And as long as you understand that, I understand your motive.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #25)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 07:21 PM

26. You really don't understand statistics, do you?

Do you have any explanation as to why politicians so drastically cut against what are pretty solid statistics? Because that seems like an outlier that needs some study.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Reply #26)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 07:26 PM

31. I understand statistics, to a degree,

and probability as well. But even if statistically 30% of people are left-handed, would you assume that in any particular group, 30% must be left handed?

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #31)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 08:00 PM

36. The percentage of lefties is not that high.

It's 10%. And, if you get 100 people together at random, yes about 10 will be left-handed. I'm a lefty, and I've asked for a show of hands in various groups while speaking. That percentage consistently is accurate.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #31)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 11:49 AM

51. If that group is a representative sample...

... YES.

If your group isn't 30% lefties, then your group isn't representative of the general population, and then it is time to start asking WHY.

That's how statistics works.

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #51)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 11:52 AM

56. Who decided that Congress, or politicians, are a representative samle?

The poster is speculating about something with zero evidence to support that speculation. That is an accurate assessment of this post.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #56)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 12:05 PM

61. Are you having trouble reading the OP, or remembering the OP?

Because the OP is asking why Congress is not a representative sample.

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #61)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 12:15 PM

70. The poster is speculating that some members

are secret atheists. So, speaking to your title, I would ask you the same question.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #56)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 12:08 PM

66. Do you think it is odd that the percentage of white people in the Senate

is way higher than the percentage of white people in the country? I've certainly read a lot of articles about that. And it is troubling. Because there should be some level of representation for minority groups in our government. Yes?

So, isn't it troubling to you that AT LEAST 10% of the population has basically no representation? I'm sure it doesn't bother you since your theistic viewpoint is represented, but how about you think about others and realize government isn't just about you and your group being represented.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Reply #66)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 12:18 PM

72. There is a reason that the Senate is basically a white, male, millionaires club.

And we can all guess as to the reasons why that might be.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #72)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 09:29 PM

94. Why did you omit Christian from your list?

Considering that is literally the thread at hand, blatant framing on your part.

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Response to Lordquinton (Reply #94)

Fri Jan 19, 2018, 02:10 PM

106. NO need to state what is obvious,

given the actual post itself, that we both are presumably reading.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #106)

Fri Jan 19, 2018, 02:55 PM

108. That's how you're going to frame it?

Ok.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #31)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 09:27 PM

93. Ok, so you actually don't understand statistics

Thanks for clarifying.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Original post)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 02:55 PM

3. Bill Maher said it best

"In fact, not only is atheism not a religion, it's not even my hobby. And that's the best thing about being an atheist: It requires so little so little of your time."

My point is that there are probably plenty of atheists in D.C. but they have no incentive to broadcast their lack of religious faith. And that's probably true of our greater society. I'd be willing to bet that there is a substantial part of many congregations that don't really believe in their churches' teachings. Accordingly, your survey statistics might very well be inaccurate and more than 10% of the population is actually atheist or agnostic.

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Response to PJMcK (Reply #3)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 03:45 PM

8. Agreed.

If 10% of people say they are atheist/agnostic in a country where that makes them part of a very hated group, then certainly there are more than 10%.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Original post)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 03:04 PM

4. I believe the "dirth" is of politicians being honest about being atheist. n/t

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Response to PoliticAverse (Reply #4)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 03:46 PM

9. Yup

I don't blame them. As a teacher in Wisconsin, I often feel like my atheism would not be well received by parents.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Original post)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 05:09 PM

11. Well, if you cannot avoid the many progressive theists,

this is one attempt at reframing.

But using this same attempt at framing, how do we know that some of the predatory self-described theists like Roy Moore are really theists?

Amazing.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #11)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 06:38 PM

19. We don't know.

So, it's best to take them at their word, since it is impossible to read their minds. Roy Moore says he's a Christian, so we should assume that he is, in fact, a Christian. It's not our place to judge his faith. No one should be calling him a fake Christian, putting the word Christian in quotation marks when referring to him, or otherwise implying his faith isn't genuine.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #19)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 07:03 PM

22. I took exception to your framing.

Per my initial reply to you.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #22)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 10:23 AM

42. Jesus fuck would you knock off this ridiculous "framing" bullshit accusation you do.

It's unbelievably tiresome. Support your position, if you think you can.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #42)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 11:37 AM

48. Certainly.

I find some things here to be tiresome also.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #48)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 09:32 PM

95. I'm sure you find people making points you can't rebut tiring

Which is why you constantly ignore what is said and go off on ridiculous tangents.

After all, you did just say that people doing that to you meant you had one that they couldn't address.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #22)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 01:58 PM

79. Most of your posts are framed like you don't own a level or a t-square so pluck the telephone pole

from thine own eye, pal.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #79)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 03:04 PM

81. The second poster who feels qualified to answer

for another. Interesting.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #81)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 03:31 PM

84. Let me guess

You're the first?

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Response to Lordquinton (Reply #84)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 07:25 PM

87. No. But I will give you some help.

look at the posts above mine, and below the one that I responded to.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #87)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 09:20 PM

90. So this isn't an open forum where anyone can respond?

Why the sudden change in opinion on that?

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Response to Lordquinton (Reply #90)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 09:21 PM

91. You asked a question.

I answered it.

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Response to Lordquinton (Reply #90)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 10:26 PM

96. Anything to try to distract from the actual topic.

Anything.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #81)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 03:57 PM

85. You frame all of your OP's. All of them.

Through a comforting lens of your own approval. Go ahead. Deny it.

And in doing so, you leave out relevant details, such as the scope or scale of a 'good news' item. If the 'goodness' is newsworthy, it should have some degree of impact. You leave that out all the time. A passer-by might mistake it for actual progress.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #11)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 06:57 PM

20. Do they not teach statistics

At Jesuit University?

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Response to Lordquinton (Reply #20)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 07:02 PM

21. And logic as well. eom

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #11)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 07:19 PM

24. We don't know.

That's the point. I'm more than willing to take them ALL at their word, but statistics indicate that over 10% are closeted atheists.

And it does me no harm if Roy Moore is an atheists. There are atheist assholes. I've never denied that.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Reply #24)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 07:24 PM

28. No, statistics do not indicate that.

They can indicate probability, but assuming that at least 10% are hiding their atheism assumes facts not in evidence.

Even if 10% of the population is left-handed, or atheist, or cat lovers, that does not mean that in any particular sub-group 10% will be any of the preceding. It just indicates a probability.

No matter his opinions, Roy Moore is a predatory sex offender.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #28)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 07:27 PM

32. Yeah, they do.

If 10% of the population is left-handed and there were no left-handed people in Congress, that would be a crazy outlier. Not saying it would have to be exactly 10%, but if it were less than 1% like it is with atheists, that's pretty odd.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #11)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 02:08 PM

80. We don't.

Honestly, I don't believe you, or any of them really are. Not really.
I also don't see how you could possibly prove that you actually believe.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #80)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 03:06 PM

82. By an amzing coincidence,

I feel the same way about you and your position.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #82)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 03:58 PM

86. Oh, are you one of those 'hairs on your head, stamped on your heart' believers?

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #86)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 07:25 PM

88. I have never heard this expression.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #88)

Fri Jan 19, 2018, 10:10 AM

98. Never read the bible huh?

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #88)

Fri Jan 19, 2018, 10:26 AM

100. It's just from one of the gospels.

Hint: Check out Luke. It's a barnburner of a read.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Reply #100)

Fri Jan 19, 2018, 11:03 AM

103. Yes, an imminently quotable chapter.

Hippie Jesus was on a tear that day. Lots of love, charity, and good ol' Christian forgiveness there.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Original post)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 07:23 PM

27. Ignorance. Ps, thats spelled dearth.

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Response to FreepFryer (Reply #27)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 07:25 PM

29. Derp. Thanks. My bad.

Need to give myself time to proofread when I post, I guess.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Reply #29)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 07:26 PM

30. In law and literature, proofreading is generally more effective than prayer :) (n/t)

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Response to FreepFryer (Reply #30)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 07:28 PM

33. That's awesome. I have to remember that.

And I'm an English teacher, so that makes it worse.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Reply #33)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 07:29 PM

34. Made it up on the spot (it figures, as Im an historian). :D

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Original post)

Wed Jan 17, 2018, 07:53 PM

35. You can't get elected if you worship the devil and eat babies.

And that's how most "Christians" see atheists. Because of that atheist politicians know better than to come out as godless heathens.




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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Original post)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 08:28 AM

38. "... it would seem statistically that 60 of them would be atheists."

Given that there are upwards of 600 people in political positions in Washington DC, it would seem statistically that 60 of them would be atheists. And there should be more given the education levels of those people.


That assumes that the upwards of 600 people in political positions in Washington DC are a random sample from the population. If we're talking about people in elected positions, it's not a random sample.

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Response to Jim__ (Reply #38)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 09:05 AM

39. Not arguing it is a completely random sample.

But, if we also look at the high correlation between education level and atheism, it would lead one to conclude that the number should be higher given the education level of those in DC. It's not a random sample, but the population does skew to the correlation.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Reply #39)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 11:35 AM

46. Yes, it is not a random sample.

You can't just assume statistical properties of the general population apply to an elected subset of the population. You explicitly stated in the OP why we wouldn’t expect a proportional representation of atheists:

… I think it is political suicide to indicate that one is an atheist. …


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Response to Jim__ (Reply #46)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 11:50 AM

54. But they would still be atheists. Just not out of the closet.

Which opens up a whole new set of questions about the role of religion in politics.

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Response to Jim__ (Reply #38)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 11:06 AM

44. If anything, they'd skew toward being more likely to be nonbelievers.

Generally more educated, wealthier, etc. Characteristics that at least in the West tend to be more closely associated with non-belief.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Original post)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 10:08 AM

41. I think the majority in just about every constituency is religious.

If a high percentage of the religious people in each district are bigoted and won't vote for an atheist under any circumstances, then known atheists can't win these offices.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #41)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 10:50 AM

43. Sure. But does that mean that the person is religious or just knows not to admit they aren't.

I can't believe there are no atheists that want to run for office.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Reply #43)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 12:59 PM

76. There's no way to know.

I suspect there are atheists in office, too, but I'm not about to try to divine who they are.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Original post)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 01:20 PM

77. They're there. They just have to lie about it. (n/t)

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Original post)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 01:21 PM

78. You can support taking safety nets from the poor as a Christian and claim moral superiority

If you vote for a bible-thumper.

It's all to do with being told you are superior by virtue of your religion. No matter how repulsive, bigoted and mean-spirited one's views, it's always better to point the finger and say I'm not as immoral as those heathens. Same with millions of poor people being Republicans. You can claim social security and Medicare and say I am with the rich and successful people, that's why I am a Republican, not a Democrat that takes handouts.

Having married into a GOP family, this has been what I have witnessed. It is all about labels and identity. If the bigots voted for an atheist, they wouldn't be able to use God as an excuse for their repugnant views and treatment of follow human being who live in their own country.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Original post)

Thu Jan 18, 2018, 03:06 PM

83. Religious people need to be reinforced in their beliefs

Atheists do not. Therefore a politician can choose to be religious without pissing off either group.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Original post)

Fri Jan 19, 2018, 04:26 PM

110. I find it interesting that theists have taken this subject

And are frocing their framing on it, and accuse others of that when they get called on it.

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Response to Lordquinton (Reply #110)

Mon Jan 22, 2018, 09:24 AM

115. Well they have to make sure to dispel any notion that the religious might be bigoted.

Because duh, only non-believers are bad. So all the atheist-hate must be coming from fellow atheists. Yeah, that's the ticket. Or they deserve it because they won't shut up. Something like that.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #115)

Mon Jan 22, 2018, 11:44 PM

116. And so it goes

The theosplaining continues.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #115)

Tue Jan 23, 2018, 11:56 AM

118. Didn't notice

Not one, but two threads! That both miss the point and bash atheists why try to point it out.

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Response to Lordquinton (Reply #118)

Tue Jan 23, 2018, 01:04 PM

119. Well it's important to make sure atheists understand:

1) They are a despised minority
2) It's their own damn fault

Because the person who starts those threads sure seems to think those things.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Original post)

Sat Jan 20, 2018, 07:10 PM

113. There are many more than 600 political positions in DC. Perhaps you mean to refer

to the Congress?

The usual recipe for winning electoral office includes not being too far from mainstream in the district; it is also important to shape an easily-understood message that communicates something to voters, convincing them the candidate understands their concerns and views

If a person provides no definite information about himself/herself by saying "I'm an atheist," there's no campaign advantage to the assertion: it provides a meaningless soundbite that might push more useful soundbites from news coverage


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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #113)

Tue Jan 23, 2018, 10:42 AM

117. I'm talking about elected officials.

Rounding up, 540 in Congress. There are other elected positions or high profile ones appointed by elected officials that gets us close to 600.

"there's no campaign advantage to the assertion" Really? You are going to just gloss by the fact that there is a HUGE disadvantage to the assertion because theists think that atheists are immoral baby eaters?

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Reply #117)

Tue Jan 23, 2018, 03:12 PM

121. A candidate needs an easily-understood message that communicates something to voters,

convincing them the candidate understands their concerns and views

Most people pay only limited attention to election issues and campaign messaging: in 2016, only about 55% of voting age citizens actually voted. A large portion of the population tunes out quickly; and that's as true for the voters as for the non-voters

To be successful, a candidate can't afford to spend time trying to broadcast a hodge-podge of facts about his/her views, since only one or two of those facts will earn coverage at any given time -- and then not necessarily with the spin the candidate prefers

A "controversy" may be the only thing many potential voters ever learn about a candidate, and an unintended "controversy" usually doesn't help a candidate: that's why campaigns are often so bland

It seems to me that the general view in this group is that people tell us little about themselves by calling themselves "atheists," because atheists are a diverse lot. Assuming this view correct (and I think it is), there would be small cause for a candidate to emphasize his/her atheism in a campaign, in part because the label provides almost no information to voters, and in part because candidates try to limit "controversies"

According to Gallup in 2015 on Presidential preferences, about 90% of Americans say they are willing to vote for qualified Catholic, female, black, Hispanic or Jewish candidates; about 80% say they are willing to vote for qualified Mormon candidates; about 75% say they are willing to vote for qualified gay/lesbian or evangelical Christian candidates; about 60% say they are willing to vote for qualified Muslim or atheist candidates; and about 45% say they are willing to vote for qualified socialist candidates. Gallup reports partisan differences here, but we should expect important local and regional differences as well

I'm not a typical voter: I'll volunteer for campaigns, for example. I typically ignore candidates' religious views completely: I really don't care if the candidate is a Catholic, a Hindu, an atheist, a Jain, a Buddhist or a Baptist or a Jew. I try to consider a combination of credibility, experience, and views on various issues relevant to the office. But if a candidate spends too much time off-topic, that's a red flag to me -- and I usually regard the candidate's religious views as off-topic

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Original post)

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