Religion
Related: About this forumThe Muslim Atheist and Friends: How To Peacefully Engage With Muslim Dissenters
From the article:
After all, the title of the most infamous book on Muslim dissent out there is The Atheist Muslim by my Facebook friend, Ali A. Rizvi. The subtitle of his book is a journey from religion to reason. What this implies or rather insinuates is that religion is devoid of reason and that the journey towards atheism involves the use of reason to dispel myths. This is clearly a privileged view of reason but it is not atypical of the New Atheist movement (whom I term as Atheo-fascists).
Read more at http://www.patheos.com/blogs/personalislam/2018/02/muslim-atheist-friends-peacefully-engage-muslim-dissenters/#odaIv4DZoabE5uMa.99
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)As if one must choose between the 2 at all.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)"So as you can see, reason is not the sole ownership of anyone. It simply depends on the hypotheses one feeds into the logical system, much like any computer."
Voltaire2
(12,939 posts)Excellent framing. Yes anyone who dares to dispel myths with reasoning is clearly a fascist.
Also likely a dead person in Islamic countries such as Bangladesh.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Interesting framing that illustrates the attitude he speaks about.
Voltaire2
(12,939 posts)Mariana
(14,854 posts)Doesn't that make them fascists?
Voltaire2
(12,939 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)you declare them immune from reason and purely based on "faith."
Odd how insecure believers always want to have it both ways.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Non-overlapping magisteria.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)You just did it again.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)But not the point you think it to be.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)You'd be able to let it go if not.
And you can't. LOL
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)thank you for not sending any more personal messages. It was getting to be tedious deleting.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Glad you have returned to radio silence!
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)I just wanted to join your massive fan club, is all.
You do SUCH a wonderful job showing what being a Christian is all about!
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)To join the fan club.
MineralMan
(146,248 posts)admitting their atheism, since that is considered to be blasphemy in some nations.
For many who have become atheists after holding theistic beliefs, the journey to atheism really is a journey to reason. Religion is generally based on the premise that a deity exists. When one no longer believes that premise, all arguments based on that premise become devoid of reason, due to a false initial premise.
It's dangerous ground for atheists in many Muslim cultures. In Christian cultures, being an atheist at least doesn't carry with it a threat of being convicted and executed for blasphemy any longer.
I don't see the book as anything unusual, though, other than that risk. "Atheo-fascists," though, is a vile appellation, indeed. The author draws a vile conclusion regarding atheists by calling non-believers such a name. I reject the conclusions because of that. It is, indeed, an "unreasonable" conclusion..
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)An official of the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom, an advisory body created by Congress, said he knew of only four such cases: one in Sudan in 1985; two in Iran, in 1989 and 1998; and one in Saudi Arabia in 1992.
The notion that classical Islamic law calls for the execution of apostates is widely known but often ignored in predominantly Muslim countries. Most have not adopted official laws against apostasy.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/26/weekinreview/in-kabul-a-test-for-shariah.html
MineralMan
(146,248 posts)which demonstrates the problem atheists have in those cultures. I recommend that atheists avoid them. Official executions are not the only way atheists die, either. They are also murdered in some Muslim countries for their disbelief.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)Just as here, the religious outrage occurs when it is used for political ends - when religion is "corrupted" for political purposes.
This is another universal trait of humanity.
MineralMan
(146,248 posts)Really? I'm sorry for you if you think that way.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)is not OK, either.
We have enough misconceptions going around.
ISIS and the Taliban kill far more practicing Muslims than any others. Car bombs and suicide vests know no religion.
MineralMan
(146,248 posts)opinion about belief. There is a difference.
Christians, in fact, kill more Christians than any other group, too. Its the nature of the culture, which is dominated by those who are Christians, just as Muslims are dominant in Islamic cultures.
That's not the issue here, at all. The issues is killing people for their beliefs or disbelief. That is the issue. One death for such a reason is one too many. You will not stop me from speaking out about that, I promise.
You don't much like me. That's OK with me. I'm not here to promote my popularity.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)I like you! I want to be respectful and impersonal.
I just disagree on this one subject. I think it behooves us to support tolerance and inclusion.
One of the great fears and issues with Islam is our misconception regarding apostasy! I just think we should take a look at our assumptions.
MineralMan
(146,248 posts)Really.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)instead of defending his argument.
My opinion.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)It is not about you, it is about your argument. Why assume anything else?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)"Those protections were most common in countries where no role is provided for Shariah in the constitution."
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)That's pretty specific.
MineralMan
(146,248 posts)So, it's OK, because religion...Feh! Do you have any idea how offensive that is?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)MineralMan
(146,248 posts)I'm tired of it, frankly. Look for my latest OP. We'll see how that goes.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Or any here for that matter. So why did you attempt to change the focus?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)They aren't respectful enough of religion to just keep their mouths shut.
Thankfully the insecure believers on DU can't kill us for expressing our atheism and our skepticism about religion, but it still bothers them as much.
MineralMan
(146,248 posts)It's not so bad, really...
Fuck that!
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)MineralMan
(146,248 posts)Some would make non-Christians second-class citizens here in the good old USA, too, if they could. Some want to do that in the very worst way.
My worry is that the rest of Christians will look the other way as they take away the rights of non-Christians. "After all," they'll say, "All you have to do is become a Christian, you know..."
Perhaps even some here would say that. Hmm...
Mariana
(14,854 posts)Even some here say that.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)So yeah, no problem at all. Why are we making such a big deal about a few murders?
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)And ascribing motivation never in evidence. Yours is a classic belief based response.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)As ridiculous and false as it is, I understand your need to believe it.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)It is not a journey to reason, because the atheistic position is unprovable. Reason has nothing to do with holding an unprovable position.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)That's great.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)I understand the desire for such validation of an unverifiable position, but that desire for validation does not make the unprovable opinion the correct one.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)I have no proof vampires do not exist. Is it more reasonable to believe in vampires; is it more reasonable to disbelieve in vampires; or are both positions on the existence of vampires just as reasonable?
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)Please stop. It makes you look like a hypocrite because you berate people for doing the same with your religion.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)If you disagree with that definition, I understand.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)My work here is done.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)What the actual fuck?
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Needlessly antagonistic in my opinion.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Mariana
(14,854 posts)Right in line with Jesus's teaching.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of god...
But even MORE blessed are those awesome passive-aggressive kids who taunt and insult others. They are truly righteous, dude!"
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)How else can we speak without understanding the opinion of the other speaker?
Mariana
(14,854 posts)What is your opinion of the author, and of his characterization of those atheists who write books, make speeches, file suit when the law is being violated, and so on as Atheo-fascists?
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Not simply the small fragment you wrote about.
He also spoke about, in his opinion, the tendency of some atheists to negatively frame things about theists in the debate about faith.
Mariana
(14,854 posts)I asked about your opinion about a very specific thing. After all, you said we need to understand each other's opinions. How can we understand your opinion if you won't say what it is?
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)36. The author's term.
Needlessly antagonistic in my opinion.
I think that clearly gave my opinion. Do you agree?
Mariana
(14,854 posts)No commonly accepted definition of "fascist" includes the things the so-called "New Atheists" are doing.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)I would brand some of the actions of the "new Atheists" as simply intolerance and condescension.
Mariana
(14,854 posts)I cheer the lawsuits brought on by the "Atheo-fascists".
Why post such hateful content here?
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)is this hateful content:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/123055976
It certainly seems so to me.
Mariana
(14,854 posts)What about Christ's message to Christians to do to others as you would have them do to you? Has he changed his mind?
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Is there a double standard that you do not wish to acknowledge?
Or is the word "hate" intended to call attention to accomplish something?
Read what I linked to and respond. Or refuse to acknowledge what is obvious to many.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)My bad.
Proceed, governor.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)I await your explanation.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)So is there an official double standard, and if so, what is it?
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)You're not weaseling your way out of this. Own your shit.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)What some other guy said in an unrelated thread doesn't change what you posted right here. Man up and own it.
Voltaire2
(12,939 posts)Keep your story straight. Or make up your minds.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)He just gives the people what they want. No need for consistency.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)It needs work.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)How's your fan club doing?
Permanut
(5,554 posts)From the article:
"..in the Atheists definition of the word religion which can be understood as unscientific, irrational dogma, can Atheism itself not be reduced to a religion? After all, it does rely on metaphysical assumptions."
Wrong.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Believers get to define atheism for us.
Atheists don't get to define religion for believers.
That's just the way it is.
Permanut
(5,554 posts)On the serious side, you have described the phenomenon in a nutshell. Not sure if it has a name, but includes cult thinking, narcissism, bullying, harassment, discrimination, greed, hate, persecution and willful ignorance, in varying degrees. I'm speaking here about the syndrome, not about any one person.