US Navy Says No to Atheist Chaplains; Members of Congress 'Relieved' by Decision

[trotsky]

https://www.christianpost.com/news/us-navy-says-no-to-atheist-chaplains-members-of-congress-relieved-by-decision-221962/

The U.S. Navy turned down the application of an atheist chaplain to serve in the Navy Chaplain Corps. The move comes after 43 members of Congress signed a letter warning that the very definition of what it means to be a chaplain is at stake.

Colorado Rep. Doug Lamborn (R) and Missouri Rep. Vicky Hartzler (R) explained in a joint statement on Wednesday that the Navy made the right call in turning down the appointment of Dr. Jason Heap, the national coordinator for the United Coalition of Reason based in Washington, D.C., who first made the attempt under the Obama administration.

"The very definition of the chaplaincy was at stake here, so I am relieved to see the Navy's response," Lamborn said.

"Appointing a secular-humanist or atheist chaplain would have gone against everything the chaplaincy was created to do. I applaud the Navy for upholding a traditional definition of the chaplaincy, which has been repeatedly confirmed by Congress and the Department of Defense," he added.

[unblock]

1. well that's a pretty explicit violation of the establishment clause.

[trotsky]

2. One would certainly think so.

But in today's political climate...

[unblock]

3. or in pretty much any political climate in this country.

certainly at least since the red scare era.

i think the founders had it right, not sure at what point it became important to america to officially go out of their way to be jerks to atheists.

[bitterross]

4. This is the core issue - quote from article

"Allowing Dr. Heap to act as a chaplain would thus open the door to a host of chaplains representing many other philosophical worldviews, complicating the chaplaincy application process, and, over time, eroding the distinct religious function of the corps to the detriment of service members."

Pretty much sums it up. They are afraid of other philosophical worldviews other than the Judaeo-Christian ones. Which, by the way, does sort of include Muslims since they also worship the God of Abraham. Just the not the way they'd like.

[trotsky]

5. But yet somehow it's ok for Christian and Jewish chaplains to advise people of all other faiths...

or no faith at all.

Nope, no double standard here kids.

[bitterross]

7. It's not like those people actually believe in Separation of Church and State

I'm sure if you ask them they all believe they are supposed to be proselytizing and converting to Jebus. So it's all good in their worldview.

[Cartoonist]

9. Pretty blatant

the distinct religious function

[marylandblue]

17. I think they will take Muslim chaplains

Not sure about Buddhists though.

[Marcuse]

6. Atheist Chaplain is oxymoronic.

A better job title would be “Ship’s Counsellor”.

[trotsky]

8. Not really.

https://learn.org/articles/What_Does_a_Chaplain_Do.html

What Does a Chaplain Do?

Chaplains lead nondenominational religious services and provide spiritual support to those who are unable to attend organized religious services. A chaplain may work in a hospital, prison, or university, or serve as part of the military. Although prison, military, school, and hospital chaplains work in very different environments, they all provide spiritual guidance to individuals who don't have access to formal religious services offered by their faith of choice.

Nothing that requires them to be religious themselves, per se.

[Marcuse]

11. The paragraph after the one you cited states that a Chaplain is an ordained member of the clergy.

Generally ordained clergy are religious, although there is no paucity of exceptions.

[Act_of_Reparation]

14. Because this place isn't pedantic enough.

[MineralMan]

15. Dude, I'm an ordained member of the clergy

Have been for years. I've even officiated at weddings, and was registered at my county clerks office. I'm an ordained Universal Life Church minister. I'm an atheist. That group doesn't care about that.

It's official. It's legal. I'm still an atheist. When I've officiated at weddings no religious stuff was ever said. The couples I married weren't religious either.

[Pope George Ringo II]

19. I once had a cat who was an ordained ULC minister.

As with the entire breed, he was a polytheist who believed all cats were gods and he was the head of the pantheon. His ordination was once a very useful alternative when keeping the mother of the bride in check.

[trotsky]

16. But certainly not a requirement.

And a lot of the functions a chaplain performs (counseling, etc.) are needed by atheists too.

[Adrahil]

23. The Navy has therapists.... NT

[guillaumeb]

25. Nice response.

[MineralMan]

10. I truly think there should be non-religious chaplains.

The chaplain's job in the military is not just to lead religious services. They also serve as emotional counselors. A chaplain who served those military personnel who are non-religious could play that role for them, and really for anyone else who needed some sort of support that didn't involve religion.

When I needed a chaplain to go to bat for me in establishing myself as an atheist to get dog tags that didn't have a religious category on them, back in 1965, I needed a chaplain to support me with the brass at my USAF basic training base. I went to the Jewish chaplain. I explained my situation to him and my concern that the Protestant designation on my dog tags was unsuitable. He listened. He agreed with me, and asked what I wanted on my dog tags. I said they should designate me as an Atheist.

"OK," he said, "Let me see what I can do." He argued my case with whoever was in charge of such things. It wasn't easy. There was no official dog tag designation for Atheists. He argued well, however, because a couple of weeks later, my drill sergeant called me out of formation and handed me a new set of dog tags. The word ATHEIST was there. The Drill sergeant made a big show of it, of course, ridiculing me, but that didn't matter to me. It had been hand stamped with individual letter stamps, and it was irregular, but there it was. They didn't have a die for the dog tag making machine that said Atheist, so they had to punch it in letter by letter.

Afterwards, I went back to the Jewish Chaplain and thanked him for helping. He told me that, as far as he knew, I was the very first Airman who ever got such dogtags. Apparently he argued my case on a 1st Amendment basis and convinced someone of a high enough rank to OK it.

Had there been a non-religious chaplain, I'd certainly have gone there, but no such thing existed. Fortunately, the Jewish chaplain got it and was persuasive. I wasn't Jewish, but he took on my request and followed through with it.

Chaplains do more than conduct religious ceremonies. They are an important person for many other functions, as well.

[Marcuse]

12. I agree, but a secular counselor would not be called a chaplain.

[marylandblue]

18. Is there always more than one Chaplain available?

If there is only one, and that one is an atheist, what is a religious person to do? If there are options, how many options should they have?

[Mariana]

21. What happens when a Catholic only has immediate access

to a Protestant chaplain, or a Jewish one, or a Sikh one? Some Catholic rituals require a priest, and only a priest - no other clergyman will do. What happens is that if the Catholic requires the services of a priest, the chaplain will make arrangements for him to see or speak to a priest as soon as possible.

[Major Nikon]

20. I dont think there should be any paid with my tax dollars

Religionists have been pretty successful at removing all public funding for abortion due to their moral rejection of the service. Well I have a moral objection to perpetuating a harmful lie, and don’t want my tax dollars used for the purpose.

[Act_of_Reparation]

13. Doesn't count.

An atheist said something mean on the internet, which is qualitatively no different from the example of systemic bigotry described above. No different at all.

Yep. That's what I heard.

[Bretton Garcia]

22. I of course strongly oppose the ban on atheist chaplins

But we need help to argue this.

1) It's a very tough case to argue that " freedom of religion" could include chaplains and religious exemptions. The" FREEDOM FROM RELIGION" group might have tried, though.

I'm looking for a good case. 2) The case for humanism as a religion seemed about the strongest.

The 3) invocation of the establishment clause seems good; but impossible for political reasons.

We need a very, very good lawyer here.

Any other good arguments out there?

4) The case for pastafarianism was interesting.

5) Demanding privileges for followers of mescal/Mescalito was fun too.

I personally talked to Mescalito. But he turned out to be an ordinary - if nice - Indian guy.

[guillaumeb]

24. This may help:

Chaplain:

Definition of chaplain
1
: a clergyman in charge of a chapel
2
: a clergyman officially attached to a branch of the military, to an institution, or to a family or court
3
: a person chosen to conduct religious exercises (as at a meeting of a club or society)
4
: a clergyman appointed to assist a bishop (as at a liturgical function)
— chaplaincy play -sē noun

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/chaplain

So what exactly is the issue?

[Mariana]

26. Did you even read those definitions?

None of those definitions excludes atheists. None of them mentions belief in gods at all as a requirement to be a chaplain.

[guillaumeb]

28. After reading your response, I might ask the same of you.

[trotsky]

27. Hey thanks for kicking this old thread in order to perpetuate anti-atheist prejudice.

I can always count on you to do the "Christian" thing, can't I?

You'd better contact the UK's NHS and explain to them how wrong they were:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/1218278744