My Journey From Moderate Muslim to Seeker of Love

[guillaumeb]

From the article:

For many years starting at around the time of the 9-11 terror attacks, I referred to myself a “moderate Muslim.” I used the term on my Facebook profile and pronounced it if asked about my religious beliefs.....

Then, just as I was abandoning the religion I’d known my whole life, I had my first encounter with spiritual Islam.....

Islam came alive. It wasn’t a rigid, dogmatic system of rituals, dress codes and obligations, but a direct experience of Divine Compassion and Mercy. It wasn’t a religion of fear, but a tender, beautiful path toward Unconditional Love. Rather than a label or identity, it was a state of being in surrender to the natural flow of the Divine Reality, or Allah.

Read more at http://www.patheos.com/blogs/livingtradition/2018/03/my-journey-from-moderate-muslim-to-seeker-of-love/#rRAb1SACckXHCiep.99

[trotsky]

1. So are people allowed to define religion for others, or not?

You claim that isn't appropriate, but you will post something like this:

(Islam) wasn’t a rigid, dogmatic system of rituals, dress codes and obligations, but a direct experience of Divine Compassion and Mercy. It wasn’t a religion of fear, but a tender, beautiful path toward Unconditional Love. Rather than a label or identity, it was a state of being in surrender to the natural flow of the Divine Reality, or Allah.

That person is defining Islam for others.

So figure it out, gil. Be consistent. Is defining religion for others OK, or is it not? The answer can't be "it's OK when it's something I like."

[guillaumeb]

2. One person's journey.

I assume that you read it and understand that.

So I see no point to your questions in that these are not my words.

[trotsky]

3. No they are not your words.

I never said they were.

But you posted them, and they promote a point of view that you CLAIM to oppose.

You can be consistent or not, doesn't matter to me. But when you're not consistent, I'm going to call you out.

[guillaumeb]

4. It is not inconsistency,

it is posting something about religion in the religion group.

[trotsky]

5. Here's an experiment for you:

Try posting about religion, but being consistent.

See how differently people react to you.

[guillaumeb]

6. You are consistent.

I saw your replies to the new to DU poster in another Detlefk thread. Very consistent.

[trotsky]

7. Oh, is that your friend?

How long have you known them?

I'm sorry I don't defer to your beliefs to your liking.

[guillaumeb]

8. As I said, your behavior and tactics are consistent.

Which has nothing to do with deference, or agreement, and everything to do with engaging in actual dialogue.

[trotsky]

12. The way I respond to you is indeed consistent.

Thank you for noticing.

When you decide YOU actually want dialog, I'll go right along. I've tried MANY times with you, and you have spat in my face every single time.

Why don't you act like "good" Christians are supposed to? I've gotten along just fine with many believers. Of course they don't smear atheists by trying to define atheism for them, or label them part of a homogeneous "choir" that's always in "harmony." Or make ridiculous straw man claims like we only believe in that which we can touch or see.

Your behavior has been atrocious, and so your experience in this forum has been negative.

Try changing the first part, and see what happens to the second.

[guillaumeb]

13. The way you respond to all theists,

and anyone who expresses a positive opinion about belief?

That way?

But if it is just me, feel free to point out your positive interactions with theists in this group. If you do get along just fine with many believers, as you say, it should be very easy to show a few examples.

[trotsky]

14. I will not answer your straw man claims.

No, I don't respond to "all" theists like I do to you. That is a FALSE statement and you are not worth another response unless you apologize and retract that claim. It's not on me to disprove your lie.

[guillaumeb]

15. Revealing.

You made a claim, not me.

And having made a claim, you call me false.

[Major Nikon]

16. "The way you respond to all theists,"

This is a claim and it's an obvious bullshit claim because you can't possibly know how he responds to all theists. You then expand on the obvious bullshit by demanding he disprove your obvious bullshit claim, which is simply more bullshit.

So yeah, you are false and it just isn't that difficult to see how. As far as why goes, it's anyone's guess why you'd even try such a transparent tactic. It's not revealing, it's just bizarre.

[guillaumeb]

17. A simple reading of the responses is sufficient.

I have looked back to 2012 and have found the same pattern.

What is bizarre is that anyone would dispute it. If my claim is so bizarre, present a few examples of positive responses to a theist.

[Major Nikon]

18. You are just digging yourself into a deeper hole

The idea you'd bother to research all 46K posts from a given poster to try to find some sort of pattern is more than a bit unbelievable. The idea you'd expect anyone to believe such nonsense is what makes it bizarre.

Then again I shouldn't say I'm all that surprised. It's not as if this is the first time you've insisted on evidence to disprove something you never proved to begin with. So as far as patterns go, there's that.

[guillaumeb]

19. Do you need another shovel?

I understand your perceived need to defend a tactic. I really do. But there is no refuting the obvious, and to date, no one has.


But if anyone can refute my contention, I welcome that attempt.

[Major Nikon]

20. You are doing a fine job all on your own

So by all means keep digging.

Meanwhile I feel exactly zero obligation to disprove half-fast assertions that never had anything remotely approaching proof to begin with. Your insistence anyone do so just provides more evidence of how weak it was to begin with.

[guillaumeb]

21. Right.

You clearly have convinced yourself. Congratulations.

[Major Nikon]

22. It gets better

Based on your posting history I'm convinced you have an unshakeable proclivity to believe nonsense over reason. This latest thread is an excellent example. So unless you can provide proof your opinion has ever been changed by reason, I'm confident that assertion is completely correct. Good luck.

Now that you mention it, I'm starting to warm up to your methods. Seems quite useful.

[guillaumeb]

24. Derivative of you.

I made an assertion based on observation, the scientific method, and interestingly enough, not one person can or will refute it.

[Major Nikon]

32. It's a fool's errand to disprove something you never attempted to prove to begin with

All you are really doing is proving my assertion and you should be commended for it. Congrats.

[yallerdawg]

9. Islam is most often described (elsewhere) as a most beautiful and fulfilling experience.

Daliah says:

In that moment of clarity, my consciousness awakened to the realization that it was futile to search outside of myself for fulfillment, because the transience of relationships to things, people and places can never offer enduring satisfaction. All at once, I became aware of being held in the arms of a Love so great it encompassed everything. The burden on my heart was replaced with an immense sense of peace. That moment changed the course of my life for it allowed me to grasp the true magnificence of my own consciousness and its ability to come in contact with the realm of Spirit.

[guillaumeb]

10. That, to me, is the faith experience.

And if any here do not understand it, or have not experienced it, I accept that.

[yallerdawg]

11. "Faith is a gift."

[marylandblue]

23. I wouldn't call that faith

I would call it a mystical experience. "Faith" comes later as one possible mode of interpretation of that experience. But the experience itself is just the experience, itdoesn't prove anything, and it means whatever the person wants it to mean.

[guillaumeb]

25. Faith is the result of many things.

And encompasses all of those things.

[marylandblue]

26. If you define faith as everything, then it means nothing

[guillaumeb]

27. If I did that, I would agree with you.

But I did not and do not define it as everything.

[marylandblue]

28. You come very close to it

Simply having an ineffable experience of universal love is not faith. I've had those, but I don't have faith.

[guillaumeb]

29. Do you believe that universal love exists?

What is your proof of that experience? Or those experiences if the plural applies?

[marylandblue]

30. I believe people have experiences they sometimes describe as universal love

They also use a wide variety of other descriptions for mystical experiences. I believe mystical experiences exist. But I don't believe a thing called "universal love" actually exists.

[guillaumeb]

31. What do you define as in the group of "mystical experiences"?

And what proof do you have for their existence?

[marylandblue]

33. Abraham Maslow called them "peak experiences"

And described them as "rare, exciting, oceanic, deeply moving, exhilarating, elevating experiences that generate an advanced form of perceiving reality, and are even mystic and magical in their effect."


And the evidence that they exist is that many people from many different cultures report having them. Just like many people report other, more common emotional experiences.

[guillaumeb]

34. There is evidence that people have these types of experiences.

Saul described being on the road to Damascus when he had an experience of such power that he changed his name and his entire life.

Could these experiences be a touch of the Creator?

[marylandblue]

35. Could be a lot of things

As I said, finding faith is one mode of interpretation of such experiences, but one of the most common elements in the descriptions is "indescribable" or "ineffable." Nonetheless people try to describe them or interpret them. But the descriptions or the interpretations are not the experience.

[guillaumeb]

36. Agreed, but I feel that the description is an integral part of the experience.

It is a sharing, and shared experience is a huge part of the faith experience. A communal sharing of an experience.

[marylandblue]

37. It could be, if someone wishes it to be so

But some people, like me, view them as private rather than shared experiences. My descriptions and the circumstances of some of my experiences wouldn't even make sense to the vast majority of people.

[guillaumeb]

38. I understand that your experiences are unique to you.

And like dreams, our experiences are filtered through our own minds.