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MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 01:52 PM Apr 2018

Why Did So Many Christians Support Slavery?

https://www.christianitytoday.com/history/issues/issue-33/why-christians-supported-slavery.html

There has been some talk here about Christians who led during the civil rights movement. We're all aware of some of them, like Dr. King. But there's a good reason for their leadership. They were standing against attitudes of many other Christians who had supported slavery, using Biblical references. We all understand the fight against slavery and, by extension, for equal rights for all people. But, that was not the case during much of the 19th century and earlier. Many defenses for slavery were made from the pulpit. Here's an article from Christianity Today that lays out the facts.

Why Did So Many Christians Support Slavery?
Key reasons advanced by southern church leaders

Many southern Christians felt that slavery, in one Baptist minister’s words, “stands as an institution of God.” Here are some common arguments made by Christians at the time:

Biblical Reasons
• Abraham, the “father of faith,” and all the patriarchs held slaves without God’s disapproval (Gen. 21: 9–10).

• Canaan, Ham’s son, was made a slave to his brothers (Gen. 9:24–27).

• The Ten Commandments mention slavery twice, showing God’s implicit acceptance of it (Ex. 20:10, 17).

• Slavery was widespread throughout the Roman world, and yet Jesus never spoke against it.


There's more at the link. Christianity has supported many things, some of them as evil as it gets. Christianity has always been a complex religion, and not all Christians believe the same nor act for the common good. We should never forget that when discussing the role of religion in society.
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Why Did So Many Christians Support Slavery? (Original Post) MineralMan Apr 2018 OP
Oh my THIS one, I am gonna LOVE this one! Eliot Rosewater Apr 2018 #1
What religion or community didn't support slavery janterry Apr 2018 #2
This +1 bronxiteforever Apr 2018 #3
It's the same question, actually. MineralMan Apr 2018 #4
Because the Bible has at least two kinds of slavery. Igel Apr 2018 #38
Those justifications were argued quite passionately by Southern pastors Major Nikon Apr 2018 #44
And also fought against it. SQUEE Apr 2018 #113
You'd think that while Jesus allegedly walked the earth... trotsky Apr 2018 #5
Yes, you'd think so. MineralMan Apr 2018 #18
Crazy that an all-powerful god would rely on such an important message... trotsky Apr 2018 #22
Yeah, well, see... MineralMan Apr 2018 #23
Well, see, I don't think any such thing happened, actually. MineralMan Apr 2018 #189
The Gospels were written after year 100, but the Copts already established Christianity Kolesar Apr 2018 #187
You keep forgetting the mysterious ways clause Major Nikon Apr 2018 #45
Religion - not just Christianity, btw - is often used as a justification The Velveteen Ocelot Apr 2018 #6
Yes, indeed. I'm discussing Christianity, because it is MineralMan Apr 2018 #10
Christianity has never been a monolith. It probably has more splinter factions/denominations hlthe2b Apr 2018 #7
You are correct. There is no uniform Christianity. MineralMan Apr 2018 #14
Many of the leaders in the abolition movement MichMary Apr 2018 #8
Yes, and many supporters of slavery were Christian, as well. MineralMan Apr 2018 #11
True Christians MichMary Apr 2018 #13
So, apparently, a Christian can support slavery and feel no guilt. MineralMan Apr 2018 #15
Yeah, pretty much MichMary Apr 2018 #17
And yet, that label is worn proudly by many. MineralMan Apr 2018 #19
You asked the question MichMary Apr 2018 #24
It seems to mean something very different to each Christian, too. nt. Mariana Apr 2018 #21
Certainly true n/t MichMary Apr 2018 #25
JW say no true christian can vote let alone be involved in politics, and I bet they Eliot Rosewater Apr 2018 #53
There's scripture to back up just about any stance Mariana Apr 2018 #62
Vague? One could conclude their basing it off of the very basics of what it is to follow Jesus Eliot Rosewater Apr 2018 #75
I think they're vague. Mariana Apr 2018 #124
Don't forget the great evangelizer's advice in Ephesians 6: 5 ... malchickiwick Apr 2018 #9
Yes. Paul had no problem with slavery. MineralMan Apr 2018 #12
Who cares what Jesus or Paul thought since as you point out there is no way of really knowing, Eliot Rosewater Apr 2018 #55
Some claim to believe the scriptures, as written. MineralMan Apr 2018 #59
So you actually know Christians today who support slavery? ollie10 Apr 2018 #127
Oh hell yes, if they could make it legal there are plenty of them in this country and they all Eliot Rosewater Apr 2018 #140
Do you have any documentation to support your claim that.... ollie10 Apr 2018 #142
Mountains of evidence christians have used their religion to justify slavery since the beginning Eliot Rosewater Apr 2018 #144
As I pointed out.... ollie10 Apr 2018 #145
Virtually all Christian churches have specifically condemned slavery. Mariana Apr 2018 #150
As I pointed out yesterday I am no longer responding to you. ollie10 Apr 2018 #152
Maybe some other Christian will answer it. Mariana Apr 2018 #154
As I said before ollie10 Apr 2018 #155
As you like. Mariana Apr 2018 #156
no comment ollie10 Apr 2018 #158
But you just did respond to her. MineralMan Apr 2018 #157
No, my response was "no comment" ollie10 Apr 2018 #159
Your personal issues are just that. Mariana Apr 2018 #161
no comment ollie10 Apr 2018 #162
The ignore function works very well, you know. Mariana Apr 2018 #164
no comment ollie10 Apr 2018 #165
While virtually all Christian churches specifically condemn slavery today Mariana Apr 2018 #166
no comment ollie10 Apr 2018 #167
Stalking, by the way, Mariana Apr 2018 #168
no comment ollie10 Apr 2018 #169
That's cool, Ollie. You keep right on exemplifying Christianity. Mariana Apr 2018 #170
no comment ollie10 Apr 2018 #171
Also from Peter the Apostle, and directly relevant to the OP: Mariana Apr 2018 #172
no comment ollie10 Apr 2018 #173
No comment ollie10 Apr 2018 #179
LOL! You felt the need to not comment on that post twice? Mariana Apr 2018 #181
no comment ollie10 Apr 2018 #182
"If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, Mariana Apr 2018 #185
If you have no comment, just MineralMan Apr 2018 #176
No comment ollie10 Apr 2018 #178
I see what you did there. marylandblue Apr 2018 #174
It think it was done righteously. Mariana Apr 2018 #175
Yes. marylandblue Apr 2018 #177
I already know the answer, of course. Everyone does. Mariana Apr 2018 #160
Or any other of mankind's control schemes for that matter. SQUEE Apr 2018 #188
Dr. King is often used asan example of religion doing good Lordquinton Apr 2018 #16
Racial equality was Dr. King's mission. MineralMan Apr 2018 #20
Money... NeoGreen Apr 2018 #26
Might have something to do with the omnibenevolent man-god totally failing to address the issue. Act_of_Reparation Apr 2018 #27
Yeah but... NeoGreen Apr 2018 #28
Not just slavery, but contracted servitude where Ilsa Apr 2018 #29
Slavery, or support of the institution, is why we have a Southern Baptist Convention today Docreed2003 Apr 2018 #30
Nowadays the Southern Baptists are very involved in right wing politics. LuvNewcastle Apr 2018 #73
Molasses to Rum to Slaves elleng Apr 2018 #31
I have been to church for decades. ollie10 Apr 2018 #32
39 out of 80. Nearly 50%. guillaumeb Apr 2018 #33
What's it to you? MineralMan Apr 2018 #36
Rude? guillaumeb Apr 2018 #39
Theists have simplistic beliefs and behave childishly? Mariana Apr 2018 #42
Guilty conscience? Major Nikon Apr 2018 #46
One could conclude a goat is being got Eliot Rosewater Apr 2018 #56
A Caprine Caper, Eh? MineralMan Apr 2018 #58
Southern Baptist heaven05 Apr 2018 #34
each and every one of them? ollie10 Apr 2018 #35
I was a member heaven05 Apr 2018 #37
They will let any ignoramus be a SB preacher. lpbk2713 Apr 2018 #43
What a sad, ugly story. That you were treated that way speaks MineralMan Apr 2018 #49
I was surprised, shocked, angry and very disturbed heaven05 Apr 2018 #52
I can only imagine. MineralMan Apr 2018 #57
true heaven05 Apr 2018 #60
An enormous straw construction. guillaumeb Apr 2018 #40
Your post is an excellent example Major Nikon Apr 2018 #47
The 11th Commandment is also much observed. guillaumeb Apr 2018 #65
So you are just assuming all since you feel so persecuted Major Nikon Apr 2018 #66
I do not feel persecuted. guillaumeb Apr 2018 #67
Then why do you whine incessantly about it? Major Nikon Apr 2018 #68
I am observing, and asking for comments. guillaumeb Apr 2018 #69
If I were to guess... Major Nikon Apr 2018 #70
I am drawing tentative conclusions. guillaumeb Apr 2018 #71
My own observation is you seem immune to new information Major Nikon Apr 2018 #72
Interesting that you should say that. guillaumeb Apr 2018 #74
I suspect your observation lens is distorted by victimism Major Nikon Apr 2018 #89
I suspect the same of others here. guillaumeb Apr 2018 #121
Sure, that would be the imaginary 12th commandment Major Nikon Apr 2018 #123
What method have you used... tonedevil Apr 2018 #122
It seems to be an entirely subjective decision on his part Mariana Apr 2018 #125
The reason Southern Baptist is even a thing is over slavery Major Nikon Apr 2018 #48
while I did find heaven05 Apr 2018 #51
They have been on the wrong side of history for over 100 years Major Nikon Apr 2018 #54
The Bible clearly supports slavery. Mariana Apr 2018 #41
Yes, it did, and does still. The words remain in scripture. MineralMan Apr 2018 #50
So how many Christians do you know who own slaves? ollie10 Apr 2018 #77
I know none, of course. Slavery is illegal. MineralMan Apr 2018 #78
Thank God! ollie10 Apr 2018 #79
You need to get out more Cartoonist Apr 2018 #134
So you say there is slavery in CA? I thought it was a liberal state. ollie10 Apr 2018 #137
We are Cartoonist Apr 2018 #139
Christian churches have strongly come out against slavery.... ollie10 Apr 2018 #143
There is slavery everywhere. MineralMan Apr 2018 #147
yes. but that doesn't show the connection between supporting slavery and the christian church ollie10 Apr 2018 #148
My original post was stated in the past tense. MineralMan Apr 2018 #149
You have said that you are not interested in the teachings in biblical day.... ollie10 Apr 2018 #151
I know how things were in biblical days of the past. MineralMan Apr 2018 #153
Vanity, Greed, Malice and Avarice mentality when it comes to Money. "consumed in material measure" Civic Justice Apr 2018 #61
Because the people who invented Christianity wanted JNelson6563 Apr 2018 #63
Yeah...sure... MineralMan Apr 2018 #64
Because Christians never enslaved each other, only foreigners. DetlefK Apr 2018 #76
First, most of the slaves in the US were Christians owned by other Christians. Mariana Apr 2018 #82
Blog slacktivist at patheos has many posts about this bobbieinok Apr 2018 #80
I think it has more to do with the mindset than biblical quotes. Doodley Apr 2018 #81
Why did so many of our founding fathers, support, or at least HopeAgain Apr 2018 #83
That's a very good question, isn't it. MineralMan Apr 2018 #86
Institutional history can not be considered HopeAgain Apr 2018 #91
Slavery has always been wrong. MineralMan Apr 2018 #95
Yes, with your modern outlook, there's no question. HopeAgain Apr 2018 #99
It is a purely ethical outlook. MineralMan Apr 2018 #101
But sometimes, stating that rule HopeAgain Apr 2018 #107
It's purely a theoretical and philosophical thing. MineralMan Apr 2018 #110
And I believe that is your experience HopeAgain Apr 2018 #112
There was a fundamental shift between in morality between 1800 and 1900 marylandblue Apr 2018 #163
About the New Testament jes06c Apr 2018 #84
That may be true. MineralMan Apr 2018 #85
Are you familiar with the Q text? HopeAgain Apr 2018 #93
I am. It doesn't exist in any written form. MineralMan Apr 2018 #97
Pretty much all of archeology HopeAgain Apr 2018 #100
Not really. Much of it is supported by physical evidence, MineralMan Apr 2018 #104
See I'm not so much interested in it from the viewpoint HopeAgain Apr 2018 #105
Well, I'm not that interested in it at all, really. MineralMan Apr 2018 #109
And as you might guess HopeAgain Apr 2018 #111
"an early Christianity that was very inwardly focused and grounded in love, empathy and decency" trotsky Apr 2018 #120
do you have any moral flaws? ollie10 Apr 2018 #138
Yes I'm aware jes06c Apr 2018 #102
The end of the world was yesterday and still no Jesus Major Nikon Apr 2018 #94
Odd, that, eh? MineralMan Apr 2018 #96
Almost all organized religion operates on the principle of conveniently unverifiable promise Major Nikon Apr 2018 #92
Interesting theory ollie10 Apr 2018 #128
Slavery in Biblical times was different, I've been told catrose Apr 2018 #87
Different in that there were different regulations. Act_of_Reparation Apr 2018 #88
The rules varied but yes it was very different Exultant Democracy Apr 2018 #90
True! catrose Apr 2018 #103
Islamic Slavery was very different too Exultant Democracy Apr 2018 #106
So this sub thread is basically arguing that Voltaire2 Apr 2018 #183
So it seems. Slavery is slavery. MineralMan Apr 2018 #184
Fredrick Douglass made it clear not all slavery was equally horrible Exultant Democracy May 2018 #190
An interesting effort to immunize a specious Voltaire2 May 2018 #191
Denying Fredrick Douglass agency and hard earned expertise is indefensible. Exultant Democracy May 2018 #192
This entire line is strawman rhetoric Major Nikon May 2018 #193
You must not have read their post before you read the first line of mine. Exultant Democracy May 2018 #194
Your list of logical fallacies is growing Major Nikon May 2018 #195
You should work on basic reading comprehension before Exultant Democracy May 2018 #196
For those who are keeping count, you just added two more Major Nikon May 2018 #197
You can post a link to wikipedia, what an accomplishment. Exultant Democracy May 2018 #198
You can post a quote from Douglas that supports Voltaire2 May 2018 #200
That sentence does not say Mariana May 2018 #199
Wrong TlalocW Apr 2018 #108
In reality, we don't actually know how people lived back then MineralMan Apr 2018 #116
Whoever told you that lied to you Mariana Apr 2018 #186
Why did christian slave owners develop the most systematically brutal and sadistic form of slavery Exultant Democracy Apr 2018 #98
That's a question I'm unable to answer, but one I've asked, too. MineralMan Apr 2018 #114
Why are so many poc Christians? Cartoonist Apr 2018 #136
The same reason so many white people are Christians in the US. Mariana Apr 2018 #146
Might as well change "did" to "do." Christians still DO support it. Freelancer Apr 2018 #115
Well, economical slavery is somewhat different than chattel slavery. MineralMan Apr 2018 #117
This message was self-deleted by its author Freelancer Apr 2018 #118
As I said, it's a different discussion. MineralMan Apr 2018 #119
Money has been more important than Jesus to most Christians. no_hypocrisy Apr 2018 #126
I'm afraid you're right on that. MineralMan Apr 2018 #129
Then why do so many of them eagerly put what little they have in the collection plate? Act_of_Reparation Apr 2018 #130
Prosperity Gospel. MineralMan Apr 2018 #131
I don't think that mentality is outside the mainstream. Act_of_Reparation Apr 2018 #132
In some cases, Prosperity Gospel ministers need CONVICTIONS, MineralMan Apr 2018 #133
No argument there. Act_of_Reparation Apr 2018 #135
Yes, there are victimizers and victims. MineralMan Apr 2018 #141
Beats me. My Christian ancestors opposed slavery, especially the kind they saw in the USA. raging moderate Apr 2018 #180
 

janterry

(4,429 posts)
2. What religion or community didn't support slavery
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 01:58 PM
Apr 2018

The earliest slaves were written into the Code of Hammurabi (18th century BC).
From my perspective, a better question is - why some christians continued to rationalize the institution well into the 19th Century.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
4. It's the same question, actually.
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 02:01 PM
Apr 2018

I'm not discussing when, but the fact that Christianity has justified slavery in the past. Christianity has a 2000 year history. For most of that history, it did not fight against slavery, but justified it using the Bible. Christianity is proud of its long history. Sometimes...

Igel

(35,191 posts)
38. Because the Bible has at least two kinds of slavery.
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 06:35 PM
Apr 2018

One's codified with regulations; the other, not so much.

There are many varieties of slavery. Some forms were basically terms of indenture. You sell yourself (and possibly your family) for X purpose for Y years. At the end, you're free; this, in a society where land was held by a family and could only be sold for so many years before reverting to its former owner. Presumably such contracts would end at the time the land reverted.

Another kind was the capture of enemies' families. They had harsher terms. Not codified.

Chattel slavery in the antebellum South was more like war captives. After that, they had to struggle to find some reason that allowed the continuation of slavery, and many settled on the "mark of Cain" or "curse of Ham."

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
44. Those justifications were argued quite passionately by Southern pastors
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 07:26 PM
Apr 2018

One can certainly speculate as to whether there would have even been a war without it.

SQUEE

(1,315 posts)
113. And also fought against it.
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 02:12 PM
Apr 2018

The Northern Abolitionists were deeply religious. Quakers specifically believed in resisting slavery, through non violent means
The opposite of that coin, John Brown believed he was on a mission from God in fact. And that only by bloodshed could the nation pay for it's sin.

Why oh why do man's self created control systems continue to manipulate and do acts of varying cruelty as well as kindness.

Atheism is also proud of it's open mindedness and reason...sometimes.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
5. You'd think that while Jesus allegedly walked the earth...
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 02:03 PM
Apr 2018

he would have, ya know, just maybe mentioned that hey, owning other people is wrong.

Instead, he gave guidelines on how slaveowners should beat their slaves.

So, yeah.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
18. Yes, you'd think so.
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 02:37 PM
Apr 2018

Of course, the words recorded as coming from Jesus were not written by anyone who ever heard him speak. So, we have no certain knowledge as to what was actually said. We have a game of "Telephone," even if we assume that such a person ever spoke any words at all.

Christianity, and most other religions, I assume, are variable in their adherence. One can simply ignore what is inconvenient in doctrine to suit one's preferences. That appears to be the rule. If I own slaves, I can find support for that. If I do not like slavery, I can find support for that, as well. Either way, I must ignore the doctrines I do not like.

Christianity, the religion with which I'm most familiar, is very flexible in its doctrine. There's so much slop in it that one can pretty much do as one likes and find scriptural justification. Since a popular doctrine is "Judge not, lest ye be judged," it's easy enough for people to ignore those who follow paths that seem wrong. It wouldn't be "Christian" to criticize other Christians.

Slavery is just one thing. There are many, many others. Divorce and adultery are a couple of them. Both are proscribed, but both are ignored by most Christians. It's easy. You just don't judge others. It's so simple. That singular doctrine lets you ignore what your co-religionists do, it seems. Very convenient, I think.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
22. Crazy that an all-powerful god would rely on such an important message...
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 03:13 PM
Apr 2018

to be accurately delivered third- or fourth- or even nineteenth-hand. Especially when our understanding and following it is so important for our eternal souls.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
23. Yeah, well, see...
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 03:57 PM
Apr 2018

Isn't that the rub, really?

Given omnipotence, you'd think a different way could be found to send that message, eh? Given omnipresence, why not just wake everyone up in the morning by saying the rules? Given omniscience, you'd think any deity would understand the futility of the entire venture and head for a nice sunny beach for eternity.

Oh, well...

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
189. Well, see, I don't think any such thing happened, actually.
Fri Apr 27, 2018, 12:33 PM
Apr 2018

No deity, no message. It's all an human invention, if you ask me.

Kolesar

(31,182 posts)
187. The Gospels were written after year 100, but the Copts already established Christianity
Fri Apr 27, 2018, 10:37 AM
Apr 2018

...in Egypt during "the first century". I don't know how that worked. Maybe there was a reverse harmonizing process after the Romans took over everything in the Church. We could start a thread at DU and get to the bottom of this in an authoritative manner! ::dry::

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,276 posts)
6. Religion - not just Christianity, btw - is often used as a justification
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 02:03 PM
Apr 2018

for what its adherents wanted to do in the first place. I think it's that simple.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
10. Yes, indeed. I'm discussing Christianity, because it is
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 02:15 PM
Apr 2018

the dominant religion in the United States. I believe that humans invented religion, so it's only natural that religion reflects the values of the societies that create it. When societies change, they simply ignore what was once standard in their religions and forget that out of convenience, it seems.

Today, most Christians would not like to recognize Christianity's role in slavery in this country. When someone brings it up, there's all sorts of hand-waving and reference to "cultural norms" and the like. The fact is, though, that Christianity and its scriptures were once used to justify the enslavement of human beings. That cannot be denied.

A similar case can be demonstrated with regard to misogyny and inequality of the sexes. Right now, that sort of thing is not in vogue, but religious misogyny was a fact through most of the history of Christianity. Perhaps today's society is just an aberration in that history. Perhaps the future will bring another round of misogyny and slavery, justified again by scriptural doctrine. As recently as the 1910s, women were not allowed to vote in the USA. It has been less than 100 years that the right has existed. And getting even that right meant fighting Christianity here. Preachers preached against women's suffrage from their pulpits and quoted the Bible in doing so.

Christianity has not changed. Its scriptures have not changed. Society has changed. Today, those things in scripture are ignored. Tomorrow, they may not be ignored.

Religion reflects society. It always has. It was created by societies.

hlthe2b

(101,714 posts)
7. Christianity has never been a monolith. It probably has more splinter factions/denominations
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 02:05 PM
Apr 2018

than any other religion. What has always amazed me is why groups that ACTUALLY take the tenets of Christ as their guiding philosophy, allow others that clearly DON'T, claim to be "Christian" faiths.

But, this agnostic has other "battles" to fight...

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
14. You are correct. There is no uniform Christianity.
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 02:26 PM
Apr 2018

There is no single set of doctrines that applies to all Christians. It's all flexible and can meet any sort of philosophical or social viewpoint. It can lead to the Crusades, when Muslims were killed on sight. It can lead to antisemitism and genocide. It can lead to torture and witch-burning. Of course, it can also lead to the spreading of peace and equality. It can be any of those things. It has been all of those things.

That's why merely identifying as a Christian really means nothing when viewed from outside of that religion. There is no typical Christian. There is nothing I can know about a person based on that label.

So, that raised the question of what Christianity really means. One person's understanding of it is not really the same as any other person's. I cannot know what it means to be a Christian, because that religion encompasses the entire range of human behaviors, both beneficial and harmful.

For me, the label is meaningless when it comes to understanding who a person truly is. I pay no attention to religious labels, for that reason. Instead, I look at people's behavior. That tells me who they are. Until I can observe that, I cannot know anything, really, about any person. Labels are useless.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
11. Yes, and many supporters of slavery were Christian, as well.
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 02:17 PM
Apr 2018

Which were "true" Christians? Christianity is a flexible sort of religion. It's followers can justify almost any behaviors and still smugly insist that they are Christians and goodly people. So it has been. So it remains.

MichMary

(1,714 posts)
13. True Christians
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 02:21 PM
Apr 2018

are those who understand the divinity of Christ and believe in the resurrection.

There is no requirement beyond that to be "true Christians."



MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
15. So, apparently, a Christian can support slavery and feel no guilt.
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 02:26 PM
Apr 2018

That's exactly what I'm saying. So, of what use is the label?

MichMary

(1,714 posts)
17. Yeah, pretty much
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 02:31 PM
Apr 2018

Christians, being human, do all kinds of shit.

The "label" is kind of an in-group thing. It means something very different to those who consider themselves Christian than it does to those who like to think they know how Christians are supposed to act.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
19. And yet, that label is worn proudly by many.
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 02:41 PM
Apr 2018

I know how I think people should act. It has to do with treating everyone as one would like to be treated. That principle of reciprocity is common to all religions and cultures, really. It's simple. Who would like to be a slave? That is the only answer I need, when it comes to slavery.

I don't know how Christians are supposed to act. I've seen so much variation among them that it's completely unclear to me. So, I don't judge Christians based on their supposed doctrines. Instead, I judge them based on the principle of reciprocity. That works for me.

MichMary

(1,714 posts)
24. You asked the question
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 04:13 PM
Apr 2018

and I answered according to my experience.

What I learned as a child in a pretty fundamental church (and home) is that "works" do not a Christian make. How you live, how you treat people, is supposed to show what is within. To reflect God's love in your life. Needless to say, it doesn't always.

Certain things are open to interpretation. Never do business with a "good" Christian, because he will screw you six ways to Sunday, then pat himself on the back for being a "good steward of God's gifts.

Growing up, there was a list of restrictions as long as my arm about expectations for my behavior as a Christian girl. Smoking, drinking, gambling, movies, dancing, rock music, etc. Boys were judged based on the length of their hair.

I recently found out that my mother told my husband that he wasn't a Christian because he was Catholic.

Still, the whole "how can a Christian ever--" is nonsensical. You can't judge what a person believes based on how he acts.

(And, no, I never met a Christian who was a fan of slavery.)

Eliot Rosewater

(31,097 posts)
53. JW say no true christian can vote let alone be involved in politics, and I bet they
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 07:50 PM
Apr 2018

can find more than one scripture to back that up.

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
62. There's scripture to back up just about any stance
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 08:30 PM
Apr 2018

someone wants to take, on just about any issue.

I did look it up, as you recommended, at jw.org. Jesus didn't specifically teach against voting or running for office, because obviously, that kind of thing wasn't done then, at least not by the people he was talking to at the time. The JW's are basing it on rather vague statements such as "My kingdom is not of this world," and "They (his disciples) are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world." I have to say it was a pretty good idea by the leaders of the church to prohibit political involvement altogether, as it completely prevents division among the membership over politics.

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
124. I think they're vague.
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 08:49 PM
Apr 2018

If there were any clarity at all about what are "very basics of what it is to follow Jesus", we wouldn't have thousands of denominations of Christianity and probably millions of independent practitioners, all of them convinced they've interpreted Jesus's words correctly and everyone else is doing it wrong. Very few Christians who read the gospels come to the same conclusions the JW's have.

malchickiwick

(1,474 posts)
9. Don't forget the great evangelizer's advice in Ephesians 6: 5 ...
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 02:14 PM
Apr 2018

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ." Antebellum planters LOVED quoting Paul there.

New International Version (NIV)

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
12. Yes. Paul had no problem with slavery.
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 02:17 PM
Apr 2018

Slaves were property, not human beings. They did not matter. And isn't that interesting?

Eliot Rosewater

(31,097 posts)
55. Who cares what Jesus or Paul thought since as you point out there is no way of really knowing,
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 07:51 PM
Apr 2018

at least about Jesus.

What I care about is the so called christians who today support slavery, racism, etc.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
59. Some claim to believe the scriptures, as written.
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 08:00 PM
Apr 2018

It's not a matter of what I believe, but what others believe.

 

ollie10

(2,091 posts)
127. So you actually know Christians today who support slavery?
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 09:51 PM
Apr 2018

Or is this something you simply made up?

Eliot Rosewater

(31,097 posts)
140. Oh hell yes, if they could make it legal there are plenty of them in this country and they all
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 11:55 AM
Apr 2018

share a common trait which I cant mention.

 

ollie10

(2,091 posts)
142. Do you have any documentation to support your claim that....
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 12:36 PM
Apr 2018

.....christians today support the legalization of slavery? I understand that if you go to a kkk site or other white supremacist nut job site you could find such....I am talking about regular every day Christians, like the ones who go to church instead of klan meetings.....please include links

I will provide a link to the Catholic Church's current position on slavery:

The new Catechism of the Catholic Church published in 1994 sets out the official position:

The Seventh Commandment forbids acts or enterprises that .... lead to the enslavement of human beings, to their being bought, sold and exchanged like merchandise, in disregard for their personal dignity. It is a sin against the dignity of persons and their fundamental rights to reduce them by violence to their productive value or to a source of profit. St. Paul directed a Christian master to treat his Christian slave "no longer as a slave but more than a slave, as a beloved brother .... both in the flesh and in the Lord."[15]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_slavery

Geez, that was more than two decades ago and some still haven't heard!!!!

I am confident that the various other Christian churches have similar official positions condemning slavery.

But here on the internet, people actually believe the Christian church supports slavery!! Imagine that....preposterous!

Eliot Rosewater

(31,097 posts)
144. Mountains of evidence christians have used their religion to justify slavery since the beginning
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 01:37 PM
Apr 2018

Too many sources to provide, would take all day.

And yes, TODAY many rightwing, racist American christians would be fine with enslaving brown people again, this is self evident.

 

ollie10

(2,091 posts)
145. As I pointed out....
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 01:44 PM
Apr 2018

Last edited Wed Apr 25, 2018, 02:20 PM - Edit history (1)

virtually all Christian churches have specifically condemned slavery.

Ergo, if a Christian supports slavery this is against the rulings and wishes of their church.

Sorta like lots of people break commandments all the time....they cheat on their wives, steal, kill....but that doesn't mean the church supports these actions!

I don't deny that there are lots of racists out there. But to blame some kooks' views that support slavery on the church? That is a a stretch.....

By the way...nice dodge on idea of documenting .....what you seem to be saying is there are a lot of documentations but you can't produce even one.....too little time....but you have the time to make unsupported claims about Christianity, don't you?

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
150. Virtually all Christian churches have specifically condemned slavery.
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 03:22 PM
Apr 2018

Yes. Virtually all Christian churches specifically condemn slavery today. It wasn't always so. If they changed the rules about slavery once, what's to stop them from changing the rules about slavery again?

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
154. Maybe some other Christian will answer it.
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 03:28 PM
Apr 2018

It's a valid question, your personal issues notwithstanding.

To repeat it: Virtually all Christian churches specifically condemn slavery today. It wasn't always so. If they changed the rules about slavery once, what's to stop them from changing the rules about slavery again?

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
156. As you like.
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 03:40 PM
Apr 2018

I will continue to post responses to your posts as I wish, according to the rules of this site and of this group. You may be certain that your personal issues will have no effect upon that.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
157. But you just did respond to her.
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 03:41 PM
Apr 2018

And then you did it again. Looks to me like she made a point you couldn't answer, so you punted.

 

ollie10

(2,091 posts)
159. No, my response was "no comment"
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 03:43 PM
Apr 2018

I think that is pretty clear .....in my language, English, no means no

and if she continues to stalk me, my response will be the same. no comment. I am not going to respond in any other way to someone who has repeatedly disrespected me in the past.

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
161. Your personal issues are just that.
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 03:52 PM
Apr 2018

They are your personal issues. They are not binding on me in any way.

Virtually all Christian churches specifically condemn slavery today. It wasn't always so. If they changed the rules about slavery once, what's to stop them from changing the rules about slavery again?

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
164. The ignore function works very well, you know.
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 04:00 PM
Apr 2018

Or you could, you know, answer the question, since you think it's important that virtually all Christian churches specifically condemn slavery today. It wasn't always so. If they changed the rules about slavery once, what's to stop them from changing the rules about slavery again?

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
166. While virtually all Christian churches specifically condemn slavery today
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 04:28 PM
Apr 2018

many of them continue to enshrine misogyny into their doctrines. There's not much sign that they'll be changing those rules any time soon. In the meantime, millions of Christians are being taught, today, that women are not to contradict a man, and that if a woman does so, she is "disrespecting" him.

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
168. Stalking, by the way,
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 04:42 PM
Apr 2018

does not consist of answering posts in a discussion forum.

"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour" - God

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
170. That's cool, Ollie. You keep right on exemplifying Christianity.
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 05:33 PM
Apr 2018

"So put away all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander." - Peter the Apostle

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
172. Also from Peter the Apostle, and directly relevant to the OP:
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 05:55 PM
Apr 2018

"Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. For it is commendable if someone bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because they are conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God."

So what is it, exactly, that prevents Christian churches from changing their minds about slavery?

This seems to be a variation of Jesus's idea that those who are persecuted should rejoice and be glad. Christians, whether they are slaves or free, are to consider themselves especially blessed when it happens to them.

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
185. "If a man sells his daughter as a female slave,
Thu Apr 26, 2018, 02:33 PM
Apr 2018

she is not to go free as the male slaves do."

Those were the days, eh?

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
176. If you have no comment, just
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 07:45 PM
Apr 2018

don't reply. Repeatedly posting "No comment" is a comment, and not a polite one at all.

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
160. I already know the answer, of course. Everyone does.
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 03:46 PM
Apr 2018

The answer is nothing. There is nothing to prevent Christian churches from changing their rules to approve of chattel slavery, to assert that the practice of slavery is God's will, and to insist that opposition to the practice is evil. Nothing at all.

SQUEE

(1,315 posts)
188. Or any other of mankind's control schemes for that matter.
Fri Apr 27, 2018, 12:08 PM
Apr 2018

Sadly, including our own party. They supported it once, as you have repeatedly pointed out in your replies to Ollie, that is enough reason to think they may do it again, correct?

Or is it unthinkable that our Party would ever revisit this horrific piece of it's history?
I no more blame the Democratic Party, or it's members, of today for that support than I do any modern Christian 100+ years removed from such abomination, and think they would move to re-establish it.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
16. Dr. King is often used asan example of religion doing good
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 02:31 PM
Apr 2018

And not to erase his religious side, the claims made by the religious who claim him erase his other aspects.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
20. Racial equality was Dr. King's mission.
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 02:50 PM
Apr 2018

That's about all most people know about the man. And a yeoman's job he did with that principle, too. I praise him strongly for his work in that area. I don't dwell on his other failings.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
27. Might have something to do with the omnibenevolent man-god totally failing to address the issue.
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 04:18 PM
Apr 2018

I mean, imagine you're God. You put on your meat suit and head down to Earth because the hu-mans really need to get their shit together. You then spend more time talking about the evils of sexual fantasy than you do about fucking goddamned slavery.

Worst. God. Ever.

Ilsa

(61,675 posts)
29. Not just slavery, but contracted servitude where
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 04:22 PM
Apr 2018

Children are bound to a master until a certain birthday. Running away prematurely, if you get caught, could add 7 times the number of days missed.

The early settlers had different levels of bondage.

Docreed2003

(16,817 posts)
30. Slavery, or support of the institution, is why we have a Southern Baptist Convention today
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 04:29 PM
Apr 2018

I remember learning about the split in American Baptists in college and flipping through a large book written by "Southern Baptists" written just before the Civil War which laid out their justifications for slavery and their split from the broader church/denomination. That racism continues to fester even today within a large part of the SBC.

As to why so many Christians supported slavery, I think, as another poster pointed out, financial interests and the desire to preserve their personal benefits led to much of the support, not just in the south but in northern states as well. The Bible can be used to support damn near anything, as you well know, if you can convince the masses of your interpretation of those texts. I can't wait till the day I've lost enough hair that when a group of kids makes fun of my bald spot I can call on God to send a bear from the woods to maul them!!! (Kidding of course).

LuvNewcastle

(16,820 posts)
73. Nowadays the Southern Baptists are very involved in right wing politics.
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 08:33 AM
Apr 2018

I heard that they're trying to get black congregations to join them. The SBC has to grow somehow, and I think they've been losing members for a while now. I was raised Southern Baptist, and I know a lot of people who have left the church and have either switched denominations or just don't get involved in religion anymore. The Southern Baptists have an inordinate number of assholes in their membership, and a lot of people are fed up with them.

 

ollie10

(2,091 posts)
32. I have been to church for decades.
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 05:35 PM
Apr 2018

And, you know what? I can't remember a single sermon in favor of slavery every being preached. Neither do I remember a single church member telling me he or she thought we should have slavery.

I know, slavery was supported by the church.....but that was a long time ago.

Well, so was abolitionism.....some of the abolitionist pioneers were motivated by.....yes....religion.

"The fight to end slavery is usually associated with mid-19th century figures such as William Lloyd Garrison and Frederick Douglass, but the first stirrings of the abolitionist movement began more than a century earlier among a group of former slaves, religious activists and political leaders. Below, meet six early pioneers of the antislavery cause, including an eccentric Quaker and a former slave trader turned abolitionist."

https://www.history.com/news/history-lists/6-early-abolitionists

Although many Enlightenment philosophers opposed slavery, it was Christian activists, attracted by strong religious elements, who initiated and organized an abolitionist movement. [1] Throughout Europe and the United States, Christians, usually from 'un-institutional' Christian faith movements, not directly connected with traditional state churches, or "non-conformist" believers within established churches, were to be found at the forefront of the abolitionist movements.[1][2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Abolitionism

It is also true that slavery was part of the Roman Empire, long before Jesus was around. So to blame it on Jesus is a stretch. Maybe there are reasons society has had slavery historically besides blaming it all on religion? Retired history teacher here, couldn't resist.

Today, virtually all Christian leaders condemn slavery as contradictory to God's will. Last I heard, we live in this day, not centuries ago.

OK....we can return now to bashing religion as the cause of slavery......my apologies in advance for having an heretical (on this board) view

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
36. What's it to you?
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 06:16 PM
Apr 2018

Put me on ignore, and you won't see my posts. I will post as I please. What you're doing is simply rude.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
39. Rude?
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 06:36 PM
Apr 2018

Last edited Mon Apr 23, 2018, 09:54 PM - Edit history (1)

Reading the many posts about the simplistic beliefs of theists, and the childish behaviors of theists, there are many descriptive terms that come to mind.

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
42. Theists have simplistic beliefs and behave childishly?
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 07:14 PM
Apr 2018

Oh, come on. Surely all of them aren't like that.

 

heaven05

(18,124 posts)
37. I was a member
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 06:29 PM
Apr 2018

of the SB religion. When I went, black people were encouraged to sit among each other. They did. This was the 80's. I had a white girlfriend and we sat in any section we pleased. One night after the Wednesday night service preacher asked us into his office. He looked at both of us and then said a lot of the white parishoners were disturbed by our relationship and could we at least sit apart during our visit to his church. I assume I was to go the black christian section and her wherever. It never really dawned on me that black parishoners were segregated because I sat where I wanted to and told him I did not see what difference it made where I sat if I believed in the same triune god he did and if people were disturbed by our interracial relationship, that was their problem. He got angry and told me, 2inches from my face that this was his church and I had to do what he said if I was to remain a part of his church. Believe he came close to getting fucked up that night, and me to jail, but my friend pulled me out of the office and after that night, I never went back. He was right it was his church and the black people that let him and parishoners segregate and disrespect them, I don't to this day understand their reasoning for letting this Southern Baptist bastard disrespect them. But that was their problem. I NEVER let anyone disrespect me.

So maybe not everyone of them were racist, maybe only 99%. One white couple was nice to us, but they excused his behavior as that's the way it was. He was preach and he was not wrong. Black Southern Baptists are seen as christians but different christians. Black christians had the mark of Cain on them, so they were fucked from birth. I studied a long time after my friend and I quit that church because of their disrespect. So your sarcasm IS NOTED and I laugh at answers like yours and YES, I say it is still one of the most hateful and racist denominations in ameriKKKa.. This incident struck deep into my heart and I really studied racism in ameriKKKan religion for the next 20 years and yes white Southern Baptists are some of the most racist, in theology and action. You have a good one

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
49. What a sad, ugly story. That you were treated that way speaks
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 07:42 PM
Apr 2018

volumes. I'm so sorry that happened, but not surprised. Thank you for writing that. Perhaps it will open some eyes.

 

heaven05

(18,124 posts)
52. I was surprised, shocked, angry and very disturbed
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 07:50 PM
Apr 2018

for a long, long time. Once I gave up on ameriKKKan religion I did better.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
57. I can only imagine.
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 07:55 PM
Apr 2018

I have seen some of it happen, but I'm a white guy, so it hasn't happened to me. I can imagine, though. I'm very sorry it happened to you. Hypocrisy began my departure from religion. It's still evident, even at a glance, too. Many cannot admit the truth.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
47. Your post is an excellent example
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 07:37 PM
Apr 2018

The “all” qualifier started the strawman and you’ve chosen to expand upon it, while pretending it had any validity to begin with.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
67. I do not feel persecuted.
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 09:41 PM
Apr 2018

I am simply using the scientific method of observation and analysis to observe behavior and analyze possible motivation. Nearly every subsequent data point so far has confirmed my initial observation.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
68. Then why do you whine incessantly about it?
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 10:09 PM
Apr 2018

Virtually every other post concerns your manufactured “11th commandment” perceived victimization and just today you were whining about another posters’ threads you evidently feel are unfair to you.

If you were genuinely concerned with the scientific method, you might want to test the effect of your own emotional interest in the subject matter.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
69. I am observing, and asking for comments.
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 10:15 PM
Apr 2018

I might even say that your phrasing of my responses as incessant whining reveal something.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
70. If I were to guess...
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 10:26 PM
Apr 2018

...I’d say it reveals to you more perceived victimization. And you aren’t asking for comments you are drawing firm conclusions about things you can’t possibly know while pretending there’s the least bit of science to it.

Meanwhile much to your chagrin I’m free to make my own observations and draw my own conclusions from them.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
71. I am drawing tentative conclusions.
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 10:29 PM
Apr 2018

If I see data points that point to possible alternative conclusions, I shall evaluate them.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
72. My own observation is you seem immune to new information
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 10:41 PM
Apr 2018

So I have little doubt the victimism will continue while you are on your alleged quest for new data points.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
89. I suspect your observation lens is distorted by victimism
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 12:55 PM
Apr 2018

...and leading you down the primrose path.

Just my observation, though.

 

tonedevil

(3,022 posts)
122. What method have you used...
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 07:21 PM
Apr 2018

to mitigate personal bias? Have any of your observations been tested to see if they can be independently replicated? It's hard for me to believe you have a real dedication to the scientific method, but I would love to see your work that proves that to be an incorrect conclusion on my part.

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
125. It seems to be an entirely subjective decision on his part
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 09:08 PM
Apr 2018

whether a post is classified positive, negative, or neutral. It's possible that this classification is a group effort, with numerous personal messages providing the opinions of anonymous team members on the nature of a given post.

Of course, he has not explained his criteria for determining the classification of each post, nor has the stated the bases upon which he chooses which posts are worthy of study and which can be ignored.

It's all very mysterious.

 

heaven05

(18,124 posts)
51. while I did find
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 07:45 PM
Apr 2018

out how racist the denomination is with my research and they loved black people being enslaved, they started in 1845. The reason they are a "thing" with me is they were racist to me and tried to shame my then almost wife because she was with me. There are other reasons we did not get married, but this incident caused more stress in our relationship.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
54. They have been on the wrong side of history for over 100 years
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 07:51 PM
Apr 2018

But I guess some want to pretend they are so much different now.

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
41. The Bible clearly supports slavery.
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 06:57 PM
Apr 2018

There was no basis upon which to tell the Christians who supported slavery that they were wrong.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
50. Yes, it did, and does still. The words remain in scripture.
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 07:44 PM
Apr 2018

In some people's hearts as well. More's the pity.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
78. I know none, of course. Slavery is illegal.
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 11:57 AM
Apr 2018

That's not the point at all. But, you know that, too.

Cartoonist

(7,298 posts)
134. You need to get out more
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 10:39 AM
Apr 2018

You keep trying to push a meme that Christianity is okay now because there is no more slavery and no Christian supports it today. You are wrong.

Here in California I will often see slaves selling strawberries on streets. And there is no end to racists longing for the good old days of slavery. Here's just one quote:

... If slavery were so God-awful, why didn’t Jesus or Paul condemn it, why was it in the Constitution and why wasn’t there a war before 1861?
The South has always stood by the Constitution and limited government. When one attacks the Confederate Battle Flag, he is certainly denouncing these principles of government as well as Christianity.

 

ollie10

(2,091 posts)
137. So you say there is slavery in CA? I thought it was a liberal state.
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 11:12 AM
Apr 2018

You ought to file a suit against that as a violation of the Constitution. Don't just talk about slavery here on DU. Do something about it!!

Cartoonist

(7,298 posts)
139. We are
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 11:38 AM
Apr 2018

There are many people trying to bring change, some may even be Christians. That doesn't mean there is no slavery today and that there are monsters calling themselves Christians. (Trump)

 

ollie10

(2,091 posts)
143. Christian churches have strongly come out against slavery....
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 12:58 PM
Apr 2018

For example, the Catholics.....


The new Catechism of the Catholic Church published in 1994 sets out the official position:

The Seventh Commandment forbids acts or enterprises that .... lead to the enslavement of human beings, to their being bought, sold and exchanged like merchandise, in disregard for their personal dignity. It is a sin against the dignity of persons and their fundamental rights to reduce them by violence to their productive value or to a source of profit. St. Paul directed a Christian master to treat his Christian slave "no longer as a slave but more than a slave, as a beloved brother .... both in the flesh and in the Lord."[15]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_slavery

I am confident that the other Christian churches have similarly condemned slavery today.

If there are christian people out there supporting slavery, it is against the rulings and wishes of their Christian church.....

I mean.....people break the commandments all the time, cheat on their wives, kill people, steal, and etc.....that doesn't mean the church supports debauchery.

And Trump is about the most irreligious person in history!

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
147. There is slavery everywhere.
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 02:22 PM
Apr 2018

Sex trafficking is slavery. People having household servants and not paying them a real wage is slavery. Importing people and forcing them to give you the money they earn from work is slavery. All of those things are happening everywhere in the United States. Even where you live.

 

ollie10

(2,091 posts)
148. yes. but that doesn't show the connection between supporting slavery and the christian church
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 03:01 PM
Apr 2018

Christian churches have specifically condemned slavery.

For example the Catholics:

The new Catechism of the Catholic Church published in 1994 sets out the official position:

The Seventh Commandment forbids acts or enterprises that .... lead to the enslavement of human beings, to their being bought, sold and exchanged like merchandise, in disregard for their personal dignity. It is a sin against the dignity of persons and their fundamental rights to reduce them by violence to their productive value or to a source of profit. St. Paul directed a Christian master to treat his Christian slave "no longer as a slave but more than a slave, as a beloved brother .... both in the flesh and in the Lord."[15]

I don't know of any Christian Church (certainly not any of the main line ones) that has not condemned slavery.

So it is clear that any christian that supports slavery is doing that against the wishes and rules of their church. Sorta like a christian who cheats on his wife.....he may do that and he might call himself a christian, but that does not mean that the christian church supports adultery.


I know you have said that you are not interested in teachings back in the biblical day.....that today is what matters. OK. Today, Christian churches condemn slavery.



MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
149. My original post was stated in the past tense.
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 03:05 PM
Apr 2018

Why DID. Not Why DO. You failed to notice that. We don't have chattel slavery any longer in this country. We used to. And it was supported by many people who called themselves Christians. They pointed to Bible verses that also supported or did not condemn slavery.

You keep asking about now. Past tense is about the past.

So, I'm not going to entertain your question any further. Past tense, Ollie.

 

ollie10

(2,091 posts)
151. You have said that you are not interested in the teachings in biblical day....
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 03:22 PM
Apr 2018

...are you going to deny this?

My point is that the church today condemns slavery. The Catholic catechism explains that pretty clearly. And that was more than 2 decades ago.

There may be racists who disobey their church teachings and support slavery.....people disobey the church every day.

You want to talk about the past, it seems, but only selective parts of it.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
153. I know how things were in biblical days of the past.
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 03:25 PM
Apr 2018

I know every chapter and verse in the Bible from multiple readings. I know what the Bible says about slavery and the treatment of slaves. I know that slavery is never prohibited in the Bible.

Are you going to deny this?

I think you aren't paying attention to what I have written. Really. I'm done.

 

Civic Justice

(870 posts)
61. Vanity, Greed, Malice and Avarice mentality when it comes to Money. "consumed in material measure"
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 08:06 PM
Apr 2018

Last edited Mon Apr 23, 2018, 10:16 PM - Edit history (2)

has long been the lusting of man... which turned him to twist, contort and flat-out push convoluted injustices of the words of the Bible.

Anyone ever read
Matthew 7:12
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you: do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Therefore if you don't care to be a slave or made into one, then one should not care to see another be a slave nor made into one.

Matthew 7:14

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

It might be wise to not let Vanity, Greed, Malice and Avarice mentality when it comes to Money. "consumed in material measure" lead you to believe in the abuse of other mankind.

JNelson6563

(28,151 posts)
63. Because the people who invented Christianity wanted
Mon Apr 23, 2018, 08:35 PM
Apr 2018

docile, servile subjects.

Look at the NT. Paul tells slaves to just suck it up, your next life will be way better, PROMISE!!!1! lol

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
76. Because Christians never enslaved each other, only foreigners.
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 11:50 AM
Apr 2018

IIRC It says so in the Bible: A Jew should not take another Jew for a slave. And I cannot really think of an example where Christians enslaved fellow Christians. Bondage Yes, but straight-up slavery? No.



It's easy to be for slavery if slavery only happens to foreigners.

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
82. First, most of the slaves in the US were Christians owned by other Christians.
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 12:15 PM
Apr 2018

Second, the Bible did allow the Hebrews to own other other Hebrews as property. The rules were different, but it was spelled out exactly what a master had to do to make a (male) bondservant his property for life.

"If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go. But if the servant declares, 'I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,' then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life." Exodus 21 : 1-6

So, all the master had to do to get a slave for live is to buy a bondsman who is single, and provide him with a female slave to be his wife. It's not a sure thing, but there was an excellent chance there would be children and the man would love his family and would not want to abandon them, and the only way for him to remain with his family was to agree to be enslaved permanently.

bobbieinok

(12,858 posts)
80. Blog slacktivist at patheos has many posts about this
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 12:02 PM
Apr 2018

He staes the white christians in the south created a theology to support their practice of slavery. This then lives on today in the world view (supported by their theology) of today's Evangelicals.

Doodley

(8,976 posts)
81. I think it has more to do with the mindset than biblical quotes.
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 12:07 PM
Apr 2018

A feeling of superiority that continues to this day among white evangelicals with the condemnation of gays and non-believers and their overwhelming support of Trump who shares many of their grievances, and that reinforces their self-righteousness. It has nothing to do with religious texts and following the example of Jesus, but about them feeling that they are above all others.

HopeAgain

(4,407 posts)
83. Why did so many of our founding fathers, support, or at least
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 12:17 PM
Apr 2018

assent to slavery? I guess the idea of a democratic republic is bad?

What is your point exactly?

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
86. That's a very good question, isn't it.
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 12:37 PM
Apr 2018

Slaves weren't considered to be people to those founders who supported slavery, apparently. It was a real flaw in their thinking at the time. We still haven't completely recovered from that kind of thinking, apparently, since the people who had slaves as ancestors, or who look like they might have had such ancestors still aren't treated the same as others.

HopeAgain

(4,407 posts)
91. Institutional history can not be considered
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 01:02 PM
Apr 2018

separate of culture and historical context. Everybody had the institution of slavery past the end of the Bronze age. Then it seems slavery made a real comeback with European colonization. Cotton was a lucrative industry that demanded lots of cheap labor. I think we overplay the influence of religion which is more often reflective of current culture, which is influenced by world circumstances; both difficulties and opportunities.

That is why I believe in God, but don't practice any religion. The value I find in any of the great Axial Age religions are those things that teach me how to keep the focus on myself and my actions, rather than trying to use God to change the World.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
95. Slavery has always been wrong.
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 01:08 PM
Apr 2018

Period. There is absolutely no possible justification for it, assuming the law of reciprocity applies. The only way it can be justified is to consider the enslaved to be less than human.

Any culture that allows slavery is simply wrong on its face.

That's my opinion, of course.

HopeAgain

(4,407 posts)
99. Yes, with your modern outlook, there's no question.
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 01:19 PM
Apr 2018

But all ethics are contextual and all philosophy is relative. Without a God, isn't it all a just matter of opinion? What sets the line between right and wrong? Isn't conscience, according to pure science, just a genetic trait that allowed us to survive better through cooperation? Some societies did very well with forcing the cooperation of others. Maybe some genes do better in the long run by dominating others, at least for a while?

If there is a singe objective set of overriding ethics and morals, that is universally applicable, maybe that is all that God is?



MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
101. It is a purely ethical outlook.
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 01:28 PM
Apr 2018

The rule of reciprocity was independently recognized by virtually every known culture. Not followed, necessarily, but recognized as a universal behavioral standard.

We know it in the West as The Golden Rule:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule

However, it is a universal understanding by thinking people.

It is often not honored, however, through dehumanizing foreigners, strangers, and people of different races. That is the excuse given for slavery. The ethical principle, though, still applies, but gets modified to suit cultural needs.

I maintain that the principle of reciprocity is the primary and universal foundation for all ethics. I do not expect that principle to be followed, of course. It obviously is not and has not been followed. It remains, however, the root of all ethical and moral behavior.

HopeAgain

(4,407 posts)
107. But sometimes, stating that rule
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 01:44 PM
Apr 2018

was like howling at the moon in the swirl of historical events. Yet it is in the center of all the great religions and spiritual practices today. Many happen to discover, and practice, that ethic and a great number get there through their religion. Many do not, and that includes the religious and non-religious.

That's why I am not religious, but very circumspect when people attack religion with a road brush.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
110. It's purely a theoretical and philosophical thing.
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 01:47 PM
Apr 2018

Some people try to follow that rule. Where they succeed, it is praiseworthy. Otherwise, it's just a topic of conversation.

HopeAgain

(4,407 posts)
112. And I believe that is your experience
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 02:02 PM
Apr 2018

but for me, it is a spiritual thing. It is an experience beyond description, and frankly a I am little confused why so many on here are so quick to attack that which they have not experienced. On the other hand, it is their prerogative and hopefully based on a personally developed sense of ethics.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
163. There was a fundamental shift between in morality between 1800 and 1900
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 03:59 PM
Apr 2018

Slavery and was legal in most of the world in 1800, but illegal almost everywhere by 1900. I don't think the world suddenly decided to follow the golden rule some bright mornng in 1842. Rather, industrialization gave us machines to replace slaves.

jes06c

(114 posts)
84. About the New Testament
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 12:25 PM
Apr 2018

You have to realize the mindset of the authors of the New Testament. The first generation of Christians believed that Christ's second coming would come within their lifetime. Once a history professor explained this to me, the New Testament made a lot more sense. You definitely get the vibe that the authors of this he epistles weren't that concerned about social justice. They seem content to tell Christians to suffer in silence. Makes sense, because Jesus is returning next Tuesday and then it will all be a moot point, so just tough it out and stay focused on spiritual matters until then.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
85. That may be true.
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 12:34 PM
Apr 2018

It's a long time since those ancient days, though. And we're stuck with the Bible as it is. As far as we know, Jesus didn't return, and people appear to still be expecting that to occur sometime. Meanwhile, believers are still quoting from the New Testament, none of which was written by anyone living at the time Jesus was supposed to be around.

It's a problem.

HopeAgain

(4,407 posts)
93. Are you familiar with the Q text?
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 01:06 PM
Apr 2018

If not, it's worth looking into. It is what scholars have deduced to be the earliest writings regarding Jesus and are only a book of sayings attributed to Jesus. All very spiritual, all about how we as individuals can live a spiritual life. They have gleaned this text from comparing the commonality of many canonical and non-canonical writings.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
97. I am. It doesn't exist in any written form.
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 01:11 PM
Apr 2018

If you're talking about the Q Source, Its existence is merely a hypothesis. If someone finds a copy of it, then it will be interesting. Until then, it is just speculation by academics.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
104. Not really. Much of it is supported by physical evidence,
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 01:33 PM
Apr 2018

from which conclusions, right or wrong, are drawn. In the case of documents, however, one cannot automatically project back from existing documents to non-existent ones. That is what is being done in the case of the Q source. Some believe that such a source existed. Others do not. Arguments are made on both sides.

Given the ease of altering and editing throughout history, I am a purist when it comes to documents. If the original does not exist for examination, the earliest existing document is as far back as one can go. And even it may contain alterations and edits to the original source, even if you assume that source existed at one time.

Archaeology studies what physical evidence exists. It draws conclusions about cultures and civilizations based on that evidence. However, when it comes down to the sourcing of actual documents, the trail truly ends with the earliest document that can be studied. Anything else is simply guesswork.

HopeAgain

(4,407 posts)
105. See I'm not so much interested in it from the viewpoint
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 01:38 PM
Apr 2018

of what Jesus actually said as much as evidence of an early Christianity that was very inwardly focused and grounded in love, empathy and decency. Politics, culture and history then took those nuggets and ran with it, shaping and informing the rest around it to suit cultural and political needs and desires.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
109. Well, I'm not that interested in it at all, really.
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 01:46 PM
Apr 2018

Early Christianity no longer exists, and what does exist today of Christianity has very little to do with early Christianity. Instead, it is an institutionalized religion that is a human construct, in my opinion. Early Christianity is only of archaeological and anthropological interest, really. We know little of its details.

My interest lies only in religion's effect on people who do not follow a religion and on our political system. I do not feel that the overall effect is a positive one, as you might have guessed.

HopeAgain

(4,407 posts)
111. And as you might guess
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 01:56 PM
Apr 2018

I believe that religion isn't so much the cause of the negativity as the reflection of the negativity in society and culture. Religion has never been the leader so much as the tool. Southerners didn't enslave Africans because the Bible told them to, people enslaved Africans to pick cotton, a hugely labor intensive product at the time.

On the other hand, there are weaved into all religions, deeply personal and inward looking principles of spirituality that can be separated from the historical and cultural chaff, that might make one ethical and help them find serenity. That has been my personal experience of faith, which I have found by studying many faiths and the underlying universal spiritual principles.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
120. "an early Christianity that was very inwardly focused and grounded in love, empathy and decency"
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 03:50 PM
Apr 2018

Such a Christianity has never existed.

It has ALWAYS reflected the moral flaws of the people who practice it.

Always.

jes06c

(114 posts)
102. Yes I'm aware
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 01:28 PM
Apr 2018

Many scholars have tried to cobble together what they think we're the original sayings of Jesus. We have the same problem with Jesus that we have with Socrates. Neither Socrates nor Jesus wrote anything, so we have to rely on their disciples. Just as it's tricky to decipher where Socrates ends and Plato begins, it's tricky to puzzle out where Jesus ends and Paul and the evangelists begin.

And then you have to remember that most scholars believe that there was no one Paul, and that the many epistles bearing his name were likely written by a few different people.

And then you have to remember that all these people were followers of Christianity so their writings are obviously biased. Wouldn't it be interesting if Pilate or Caiphas had written a memoir of their encounters with Jesus?

 

ollie10

(2,091 posts)
128. Interesting theory
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 08:24 AM
Apr 2018

Except

1. They were interested in social justice
2. Jesus spoke about social justice
3. The old testament spoke about social justice too for that matter
4. Early christions were out there and were not sitting back waiting for the 2nd coming, many were mattyred

catrose

(5,047 posts)
87. Slavery in Biblical times was different, I've been told
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 12:40 PM
Apr 2018

It wasn't for life; I think it was 7 years at the most, more like indentured servitude. Admittedly, 7 years could be for life, depending on the work you were doing.

Here's a book that goes into the theological knots people tied themselves into:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00W1W601S/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
88. Different in that there were different regulations.
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 12:54 PM
Apr 2018

And different ways of getting around those regulations, as prescribed by the Bible.


At the end of the day, owning another human being as property, whether it is for 7 years or for life, is fucked up. And you'd think an omnibenevolent deity ostensibly concerned for the welfare of his creations would have thought to mention it when he came down to kick it with us for 30 years. But no, he had bigger fish to fry. Like jacking off.

Exultant Democracy

(6,594 posts)
90. The rules varied but yes it was very different
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 12:56 PM
Apr 2018

Slaves were also used differently for things like book keeping, teaching, the priesthood etc... A life time of slavery also wasn't an inheritable trait.

catrose

(5,047 posts)
103. True!
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 01:30 PM
Apr 2018

All of it, especially the not-inheritable part.

So the defenders of slavery were comparing apples & oranges, as is frequently done today.

Exultant Democracy

(6,594 posts)
106. Islamic Slavery was very different too
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 01:41 PM
Apr 2018

Last edited Tue Apr 24, 2018, 04:06 PM - Edit history (2)

Muslims weren't allowed to have muslim slaves so conversion was used as a strategy for excaping bondage just as often as you would expect. However once again a lot of these slaves weren't doing heavy labor, so there are plenty of examples of Jewish scribes and accountants not bothering to convert because they had places of relative comfort.

It was also very common for Muslim rulers to free ever slave in their kingdom as the same time a few times during their lives just to make sure they emptied their sin bank before they died. (my term not theirs, but think along the lines of a plenary indulgence built into the religion for the act of freeing slaves and you get the point.)

Voltaire2

(12,622 posts)
183. So this sub thread is basically arguing that
Thu Apr 26, 2018, 06:25 AM
Apr 2018

slavery was not so bad.

The same argument was and is being made about plantation slavery.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
184. So it seems. Slavery is slavery.
Thu Apr 26, 2018, 09:16 AM
Apr 2018

It dehumanizes people so they can be treated like farm animals. There is no possible defense for it.

Exultant Democracy

(6,594 posts)
190. Fredrick Douglass made it clear not all slavery was equally horrible
Thu May 3, 2018, 07:33 PM
May 2018

And most often the Christian character of the slave owners made bondage under them significantly worse. Do you think you have the standing to judge Fredrick Douglass’ first hand experience? Most sane people would be willing to defer to his expert judgement.

Voltaire2

(12,622 posts)
191. An interesting effort to immunize a specious
Thu May 3, 2018, 08:06 PM
May 2018

defense of slavery by, ironically, invoking Douglas.

I’ll give you credit for trying.

But trying to defend slavery by claiming this form of one human owning another human wasn’t quite as awful as that form over there is still defending slavery.

It’s indefensible.

Exultant Democracy

(6,594 posts)
192. Denying Fredrick Douglass agency and hard earned expertise is indefensible.
Thu May 3, 2018, 09:24 PM
May 2018

Trying too pretend that all slavery is the same is preposterous. All forms of slavery are evil but there is no doubt that Aesop for example had a far better life than a southern plantation slave and that is the exact point that Douglass was making.

It's like saying getting your car taken is all equally bad when being car jacked raped and murdered is worse than being car jacked and forced to empty your bank accounts and not be raped and murdered. Car jacking is always evil but some car jacking is worse just like slavery.
It just so happens that when you look at the body of law common practice that was developed by Christians in the west was quantifiable worse than anything anyone dreamed up before.

All the programs against the jews were evil and yet the holocaust was still worse, see it isn't hard to find gradations of evil.

When you are arguing about slavery against Fredrick Douglass chances are you are horribly and disgustingly wrong.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
193. This entire line is strawman rhetoric
Fri May 4, 2018, 11:01 AM
May 2018

Nobody is pretending all slavery is the same nor denying anything Fredrick Douglas wrote. One need not read any more than your first sentence.

Exultant Democracy

(6,594 posts)
194. You must not have read their post before you read the first line of mine.
Fri May 4, 2018, 12:11 PM
May 2018

"claiming this form of one human owning another human wasn’t quite as awful as that form over there is still defending slavery"

Try reading all the sentences next time before you start crying strawman.

Exultant Democracy

(6,594 posts)
196. You should work on basic reading comprehension before
Fri May 4, 2018, 01:27 PM
May 2018

you try to tackle logic. Very poor jobs on both fronts displayed here, and rather pathetic when taken in the greater context.

"Voltare" was saying that pointing out one form of slavery wasn't as bad as another form of slavery was a defense of slavery.(the only strawman in this subthread fyi, but as people with class know you only look like a bore when you go exclaiming fallacy to win rhetorical points so I engaged with the subject matter rather than something irrelevant to the conversation.)

More over "Voltare" said that the line of argument was disgusting. I pointed out I was using Fredrick Douglass' argument and saying that Douglass' was defending slavery when he pointed out that christians invented the worst form of slavery to date was actually disgusting.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
197. For those who are keeping count, you just added two more
Fri May 4, 2018, 02:13 PM
May 2018
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obfuscation

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

While I'm sure you'll easily make a baker's dozen before long, you'll have to do so without my continued participation. Please do continue though and I'm sure you will. The last word seems vitally important to you and I'm sure you'll insure victory with it, at least in your own mind.

Cheers!

Exultant Democracy

(6,594 posts)
198. You can post a link to wikipedia, what an accomplishment.
Fri May 4, 2018, 02:22 PM
May 2018

You should try a real book on logic so you can understand what you are talking about and not just blow hot air.

Once you are done you can diagram this sub thread and I'll be waiting for my apology.

Voltaire2

(12,622 posts)
200. You can post a quote from Douglas that supports
Fri May 4, 2018, 05:05 PM
May 2018

the thesis I objected to of a benign slavery in biblical times, or any time for that matter.

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
199. That sentence does not say
Fri May 4, 2018, 04:49 PM
May 2018

that all slavery is the same, nor does it deny anything Fredrick Douglass wrote.

TlalocW

(15,358 posts)
108. Wrong
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 01:45 PM
Apr 2018

While there was indentured servitude for one's fellow Hebrews (which I don't consider very moral in the first place), the Bible, mainly in Exodus 21 explained where to get your lifelong slaves (from other local tribes) and how to essentially trick fellow Hebrews who were temporary slaves into becoming permanent ones by finding them a wife (women slaves, surprise-surprise, did not have the option of going free). At the end of his time as an indentured servant, the slave could leave, but the wife and any kids from the union stayed, or he could proclaim he loved his master and wanted to stay and then have an awl driven through his ear to indicate permanent slave. And then one could pass these slaves down to your kids and even beat them as badly as you wanted as long as they could get up and walk in a day or two, etc.

Then in the New Testament, Jesus told slaves to obey their masters, no matter how cruel, etc.

So let's stop pretending that the Bible is some sort of worthwhile moral code. Like with most issues (such as homosexuality), any Christians lauded for fighting against slavery were ignoring the word of God and were more moral because of it.

TlalocW

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
116. In reality, we don't actually know how people lived back then
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 02:31 PM
Apr 2018

in any detail. We aren't really able to reconstruct the actual ways people lived and behaved. That's especially true when it comes to less important members of those societies, and slaves were certainly at the bottom of that list. People who are proclaiming that slavery wasn't so bad in Biblical times are just guessing. They have no idea, really.

Some people in the United States also claim that the lives of slaves were not so bad. It's a way to deny just how horrible slavery is. It's deplorable, at best, and downright evil, at worst, to make such claims. And yet, those claims are made.

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
186. Whoever told you that lied to you
Thu Apr 26, 2018, 02:43 PM
Apr 2018

if they claimed that was what the laws in the Bible say about slavery.

“Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly." Leviticus 25 : 44-46

Even for Hebrew slaves, only the men had to be set free after seven years.

"If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do." Exodus 21 : 7

Owners could beat their slaves to death, as long as the slave lingered for a few days before he or she died.

"If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property." Exodus 21 : 21

Exultant Democracy

(6,594 posts)
98. Why did christian slave owners develop the most systematically brutal and sadistic form of slavery
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 01:12 PM
Apr 2018

Last edited Tue Apr 24, 2018, 03:17 PM - Edit history (2)

The world had ever seen? I think that is the real question.

I see a lot of post here about how ever other major religion held slaves, but those deflections are only just that. No other group but Christians ever invented a form of slavery as horrible as what was built in the American Plantation.

I would suggest David Walkers Appeal is required reading for this discussion, more specifically. ARTICLE III.OUR WRETCHEDNESS IN CONSEQUENCE OF THE PREACHERS OF THE RELIGION OF JESUS CHRIST.
http://docsouth.unc.edu/nc/walker/walker.html
"The Pagans, Jews and Mahometans try to make proselytes to their religions, and whatever human beings adopt their religions they extend to them their protection. But Christian Americans, not only hinder their fellow creatures, the Africans, but thousands of them will absolutely beat a coloured person nearly to death, if they catch him on his knees, supplicating the throne of grace. This barbarous cruelty was by all the heathen nations of antiquity, and is by the Pagans, Jews and Mahometans of the present day, left entirely to Christian Americans to inflict on the Africans and their descendants, that their cup which is nearly full may be completed. I have known tyrants or usurpers of human liberty in different parts of this country to take their fellow creatures, the coloured people, and beat them until they would scarcely leave life in them; what for? Why they say "The black devils had the audacity to be found making prayers and supplications to the God who made them!!!!""

I would also suggest Frederick Douglass' addendum to his autobiography which is entirely about the Christianity and slavery. As Douglass noted it was the most christian slave owner who were far and way the most twisted and evil. When a slave got sold on they would pray in hope that their new owner would not be a godly man.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
114. That's a question I'm unable to answer, but one I've asked, too.
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 02:20 PM
Apr 2018

I just don't know. For me, ownership of another human being is the worst sort of evil. Once you go that far, I think there is no depth beyond which you can sink. American slavery quickly became a horror story, with some people even breeding slaves for sale.

It is the very worst element of US history, in my opinion, that can be imagined. For me, it poisons the American historical experience and demonstrates that we cannot claim to be the example of freedom we seem to believe we are.

That it was supported by Christians colors my view of Christianity, as well. We don't have that stain any longer, but who is to say it could not occur again? Our history is short, and history has a way of repeating itself.

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
146. The same reason so many white people are Christians in the US.
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 02:20 PM
Apr 2018

It's the result of years of indoctrination during early childhood, usually complete with threats, by adults they trusted.

Freelancer

(2,107 posts)
115. Might as well change "did" to "do." Christians still DO support it.
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 02:30 PM
Apr 2018

Economic slavery endures. It's in every mahogany plank, every cup of coffee, every iPhone, every snort of cocaine. It's capitalism's secret ingredient.

When the U.N. gave veto power to certain powerful nations, that was akin to the ABOMINABLE concession at the founding of the U.S. that stated African Americans would be considered 3/5 men. The U.N. still operates under that kind of power concession. Why?

Simple. People with stuff fear being swamped. They feel compelled by religion to give thanks for being the recipients of the bounty of the world. They give table scraps and lip service in homage to New Testament ideas. Yet, at the same time, as inheritors of wealth and power, they loath the thought of presiding over its dissolution. Nobody with money bequeaths it to the poorest relative. They leave it to the one that will continue to grow what they've jealously amassed -- to another would-be "master."

If our actions in defense of economic slavery, out of fear of being swamped, bring about actually being overrun, I wonder if we'll see the irony.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
117. Well, economical slavery is somewhat different than chattel slavery.
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 02:33 PM
Apr 2018

It's still a terrible thing, and it certainly exists, as does chattel slavery in some places. But, it's a different discussion, really.

Response to MineralMan (Reply #117)

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
119. As I said, it's a different discussion.
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 02:43 PM
Apr 2018

I started this thread to discuss the support Christianity brought to the slavery present here in the past. A good discussion could be had on slavery as a broader concept, but that wasn't the topic I introduced. A different thread would be needed to discuss all exploitation by humans of other humans, I think. That is something that is still with us, and very prevalent.

I can't draw any essential connection between Christianity and that kind of exploitation, really. If you can, perhaps you can create a new thread where it can be discussed.

no_hypocrisy

(45,771 posts)
126. Money has been more important than Jesus to most Christians.
Tue Apr 24, 2018, 09:18 PM
Apr 2018

If slavery were re-legitimized today, it would be just as popular, if not more.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
131. Prosperity Gospel.
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 09:45 AM
Apr 2018

They've been told it will be returned "an hundredfol.

They're "sowing seed on fertile ground," they're told:

Matthew 13: 8
King James Bible
But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
132. I don't think that mentality is outside the mainstream.
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 10:07 AM
Apr 2018

Christianity as a whole is a faith-for-reward system. Whether that reward is money or a McMansion in the sky is immaterial. The motivation remains the same.

I think it is a mistake to dismiss these people as phonies. They have conviction.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
135. No argument there.
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 10:55 AM
Apr 2018

But I think we need to differentiate the leaders from the rank and file. The Joel Osteens of the world might not actually put much stock in Jesus, but the John and Jane Smiths of the world, living paycheck to paycheck and hanging on Osteen's every word, certainly do.

raging moderate

(4,281 posts)
180. Beats me. My Christian ancestors opposed slavery, especially the kind they saw in the USA.
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 08:27 PM
Apr 2018

Last edited Fri May 4, 2018, 10:24 AM - Edit history (2)

A few years back, I was gratified to read that the KKK people are still boiling mad at my Methodist Episcopal preacher ancestors. I don't care that they didn't leave us any money or property. That heritage means more to me than any diamond or trust fund ever could have. Thank you, Lewis Cooley and Charles Wyatt! I am not trained in this, but I do remember some of their thoughts. Let's see. "Thou shalt remember that thy ancestors were strangers...were slaves in Egypt...thou shalt not oppress strangers (or slaves) among you. There is a stringent set of rules for the fair treatment of slaves in the Torah. A master was supposed to furnish food, clothing, a spouse, and an appropriate education. Remember that New England slave girl, Phyllis Wheatley, who wrote the poetry? Her owners had read that passage and felt obligated to obey. Since she was very smart, they just kept teaching her. Reading comprehension diligence probably contributed to the quick demise of slavery in northern New England (also the long winters, when they were kept inside by the cold). Oh, and there is that time Jesus talked about any Christian who beat his servants, saying, in so many words, "that man is disobeying me, his master, and he will be punished." These words were twisted by the slaveholders, who conveniently left out the first part of the passage and garbled the middle part to pretend it was a justification for beating slaves. Of course, there was the famous runaway slave whom Paul urged to return to his master. However, Paul wrote to the master that Onesimus, although legally his slave, was actually and more importantly his brother in Christ, and should be forgiven for whatever he had done wrong. Paul was such a rigid little crank by nature, sometimes he sounded meaner than he was, but he wrote this: "There is neither Jew nor Greek nor male nor female nor slave nor free, but all are one in Christ Jesus." And Jesus said: "They shall come from the north and the south and the east and the west, to sit down at the table together, in the Kingdom of God." My Methodist ancestors sometimes invited Black people to stay with them, since Black people were actually not allowed to go to hotels or restaurants. They waited on those Black houseguests themselves, and they were happy to do so.

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