One of the major things that religion does

[Eko]

is create the false perception of a reality of a better life and allows people to do horrible things to achieve it. This has happened throughout history. I have debated religionists thousands of times and they all fall back on the same logical fallacies to defend religion. That's not to say that religion is the boogeyman of history, nor is it the cause of all the bad that has happened. But it certainly does create a type of thinking that has been shown to be harmful to the world. An inability to accept facts, an unwillingness to accept outsiders, the belief that you are correct and nothing can change that, and that the most supreme being ever has your back and believes just like you do. Those are not good things at all and do worlds of damage to societies. That doesnt mean that there are not other bad things, but we need to at the very least be able to have a conversation about it.

[More_Cowbell]

1. Church-going presidents

One thing that Trump has done is expose the hypocrisy of a lot of evangelical Christians. He doesn't go to church. He's had multiple affairs and marriages. He doesn't follow Christian precepts like charity. And yet they continue to support him, as if he were born again when he was inaugurated, and nothing he did before matters. Whereas President Obama, an actual churchgoing Christian, faithful to his wife, could do nothing right in their eyes.

In my opinion, Christianity has always been used to suppress rebellion ("It doesn't matter how bad we treat you now, you'll have your reward in heaven&quot but the hypocrisy has really been increasing since Trump was elected.

Disclaimer: I was raised Catholic, I had 8 years of Catholic school, but I'm an atheist now. It takes faith to believe in the crazy illogic of an all-powerful god, and I don't have that faith.

[True Blue American]

3. They actually insist

Trump was forgiven.

You can be forgiven for past sins, but if you keep doing the same thing, that is not. You have to make a clean start.

And no human can absolve you. My opinion,others may differ. I want to make that clear.

[PJMcK]

10. "No human can absolve you"

In order to be forgiven by the Christian god, a person has to have regret for their sins and ask god for forgiveness. This is one of the lessons Jesus teaches in the New Testament. To disregard this fundamental aspect of the religion is to completely misinterpret what Jesus had to say.

The gift of absolution is not granted by Franklin Graham or Pat Robertson or Joel Osteen or any other faker. It can only come from god.

By the way, I haven't noticed Trump ever apologizing for any of his atrocious behavior. Since he has publicly stated that he's done no wrong, how does that forgiveness thing work? And don't tell me it's in his "heart" because his behavior hasn't changed over decades.

Evangelical Christians live lives full of hypocrisy as evidenced by their unqualified support of Trump.

This is but one more example of the many reasons I'm an atheist. As Ron Reagan says, I'm not afraid of hell.

[progressoid]

12. Sort of. But we've seen their hypocrisy before.

Their hypocrisy was on display when they lionized Reagan (who rarely went to church and had also been divorced). Their hypocrisy also popped up during the Bill Clinton debacle. They criticized Bill while ignoring their own "forgiving" their own.

Also...

White Evangelicals Can't Quit Donald Trump

...

A new survey released this week by PRRI, where I serve as the CEO, finds white evangelical support for Trump remains strikingly high, with 75 percent holding a favorable view of the president and only 22 percent holding an unfavorable view.

A PRRI poll conducted in the fall of 2017 suggested how unshakeable the white evangelical-Trump connection has become: Among the 72 percent of white evangelical Protestants who approved of Trump’s job performance at the time, approximately four in 10 agreed with the following statement: “There’s almost nothing President Trump could do to lose my approval.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/04/white-evangelicals-cant-quit-donald-trump/558461/

[Major Nikon]

14. Saint Ronnie conceived a child out of wedlock through a quid pro quo arrangement

Nancy was on the black list and Ronnie was the man to see about such things. After Nancy got knocked up, they had to get married to save both their careers.

[progressoid]

27. Good old family values. n/t

[NeoGreen]

28. Yeah but, 'mulligan', so...no foul...(for R's only) (nt)

[safeinOhio]

2. Joe Hill said it best.....

HORUS:
You will eat, bye and bye
In that glorious land above the sky
Work and pray, live on hay
You’ll get pie in the sky when you die (that’s a lie)

And the starvation army they play
And they sing and they clap and they pray
Till they get all your coin on the drum
Then they tell you when you’re on the bum

Holy rollers and jumpers come out
They holler, they jump, and they shout
Give your money to Jesus they say
He will cure all diseases today

If you fight hard for children and wife
Try to get something good in this life
You’re a sinner and bad man, they tell
When you die you will sure go to hell

Workingmen (folk) of all countries unite
Side by side we for freedom will fight
When the world and its wealth we have gained
To the grafters we’ll sing this refrain

LAST CHORUS:
You will eat, bye and bye
When you’ve learned how to cook and to fry
Chop some wood, twill do you good
And you’ll eat in the sweet bye and bye (that’s no lie)

[True Blue American]

4. Good one:)

You may be safe in Ohio, but if Mike DeWine gets in I am not so sure. He is another Mike Pence.

Pious beyond belief, but mean as a snake. He is against Medicaid, anything for the needy.

Devout Catholic..

[safeinOhio]

6. Moved back to Michigan from Ohio.

When I left Michigan 10 years ago Michigan was not a Right to Work state. I came back to make Michigan the first Right to Vote state.

[True Blue American]

8. Good for you.

Spent time in Michigan, never lived there.

A good share of my family lived in FlatRock and Lincoln Park. All worked for the DT&I RailRoad.

Are you old enough to remember that? Henry Ford bought it to haul his 🚗. Gave my Grandfather a lifetime job.

[safeinOhio]

49. My last job at the Ford plant in Wayne

was loading cars on to the trains. CXS was the rail line.

[True Blue American]

59. Yes

The DT&I is gone. So is the N&W, ( my Dad worked there.) Southern, ( my FIL in Tennessee.)

Al have now merged. I think one is now Norfolk/ Southern. Politicians killed the Railroads, and now there is a huge shortage of Truck drivers and we need Railroads. Go figure.

[thucythucy]

30. I've always loved that song.

Here's a puzzler for you.

I've been looking for a recording of a song I heard a union activist sing at a rally, years ago, and have never been able to find it. He said it was a Joe Hill song but I can't seem to place it (and the singer has since passed away). Maybe you can help? It's a song about a union activist being chased by anti-union thugs. The only part I can remember verbatim is the first line of the chorus:

"They go wild, simply wild, over me..." And then each verse is about a different anti-union person (a boss, the press, private detective thugs, scabs...) going after the activist.

I can remember the melody, but unless you can read and write music you can't search for melodies on Google.

Any thoughts on how I can find this?

[safeinOhio]

50. Is this it?

http://www.folkarchive.de/wild1.html

[ret5hd]

52. Video:

[KY_EnviroGuy]

64. Lyrics and References

Good references on 'ole Joe Hill:

Joe Hill (Wiki)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Hill

The Music of Labor: From Movement to Culture
Article by Michael L. Richmond
http://unionsong.com/reviews/mol.html

----------
Lyrics link: https://www.musixmatch.com/lyrics/Pete-Seeger-The-Hooteneers/The-Popular-Wobbly

Lyrics
The Popular Wobbly
Pete Seeger & The Hooteneers

I'm as mild mannered man as can be
And I've never done them harm that I can see
Yet on me they put a ban

And they throw me in the can
They go wild, simply wild over me
They accuse me of rascality
And I can't see why they always pick on me
I'm as gentle as a lamb
Yet they take me for a ram
They go wild, simply wild over me
Oh the bull he went wild over me
And he held his club where everyone could see
He was breathing mighty hard
When he saw my union card
He went wild, simply wild over me
Then the judge, he went wild over me
And I plainly saw we never could agree
So I let the man obey
What his conscience had to say
He went wild, simply wild over me
Oh, the jailer, he went wild over me
And he locked me up and threw away the key
Well it seems to be the rage
That they keep me in a cage
They go wild, simply wild over me
They go wild, simply wild over me
I'm referring to the bedbug and the flea
They disturb my slumber deep
And they rob me of my sleep
They go wild, simply wild over me
Will the roses grow wild over me
When I'm gone into the land that is to be?
When my soul and body part
In the stillness of my heart
Will the roses grow wild over me?

--------

[KY_EnviroGuy]

5. Power and money corrupts religion, as with everything else. n/t

.....

[Act_of_Reparation]

32. Because the problem with religion is the power and the money...

...and not the part where people believe crazy shit that just isn't true.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

42. LOL, that made me think of the old-timey tent revivals down home...

They didn't do much long-term damage beyond tracking up some old farmer's field, or let a few cows get out. However, the damage megachurches of late do to communities, local cultures, and our political system will be on-going for as long as the buildings stand.

I contend they should be taxed the same as any other business property. They are after all, quite a large business interest (day care centers, book sales, facility rental, etc.).

[Act_of_Reparation]

62. I'm willing to bet they do a lot more damage than that.

[Ligyron]

7. More and more people realize this everyday.

Someday, we will be rid of the curse that is religion.

[True Blue American]

9. They are killing themselves

By their actions.

[trotsky]

11. Not just an inability to accept facts either -

but an active rejection of facts if they contradict faith.

You'll undoubtedly get someone responding on here that it's just like patriotism or some other -ism (which ironically destroys the whole notion of religious faith being special, which they'll also insist upon), but it's not like apologists are known for their consistency.

Like you say, humanity has certainly had its share of bad ideas. I love linking to this piece to explain why religion is uniquely bad:

http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2009/11/armor-of-god.html

To date, not one theist has ever been able to respond to it. Pretty easy to figure out what that means.

[Major Nikon]

15. That armor is what makes religion inherently corruptible

It's just not that hard to convince people you speak for god. The endless list of idiots who have managed to do so speaks for itself. Once this has been accomplished, you can convince them of anything else up to and including the righteousness of any immoral act you can name. Slavery, child rape, and genocide are prime examples.

The whataboutists will claim all of those atrocities are committed without religion, which while true is exactly the same logical argument as "guns don't kill people".

[KY_EnviroGuy]

43. Not many things people say that are more annoying to me than...

saying to someone "god wants you to do this", or "god does not want you to do that", as if they have a direct phone line to a deity. That habit in certain groups was the final nail in the coffin of religion for me, along with the hypocrisy of methodically criticizing other creeds and cultures, and their corrosive involvement in politics.

[Eko]

55. Greta's blog

was great. Thanks for sharing!

[guillaumeb]

57. It is laughably simplistic in method.

And that might be why no one wishes to waste time responding to it.

[trotsky]

63. Then it should be quite easy for you to dispatch, once and for all.

Shut me up, gil. I dare you to try.

But I bet you can't, so you won't.

[guillaumeb]

65. I would not bother responding to that random internet blogger.

As I said, it was so simplistic as to be comedic.

[trotsky]

66. So simplistic, yet you can't even offer a few sentences.

As I figured. You have no response.

Prove me wrong. I dare you.

[guillaumeb]

67. I read it again.

It is still just as silly.

[Voltaire2]

68. All hat.

No cattle.

[guillaumeb]

69. Engaging in self-reflection?

Good for you.

[trotsky]

70. Sure thing, gil.

Which is why you are totally unable to offer ANYTHING to refute it.

[True Blue American]

60. Thank you for that article

Bookmarked.

Those in Religion are doing serious damage to themselves. I know it is just one section, but that section is the loudest and the most fraudulent, staring with greedy, prosperity Preachers.

[zipplewrath]

13. Rather broad brush

Not sure whether you are talking religion, or faith. But the vast majority of people in organized religion are there for a sense of community. It's a form of tribalism and has all the good and bad aspects thereof.

[Major Nikon]

16. This is an excellent example of rhetoric designed to shut down any such dialog

The corruptible aspects of religion can't be discussed without false allegations of intolerance.

Once this objective has been achieved, we can only discuss the positive aspects of religion. This strategy has been in effect at least since the beginning of recorded history. The only thing that seems to change is the method of enforcement.

[zipplewrath]

17. And where did I do such a thing?

All I suggested was that the vast majority of people involved in organized religion weren't involved for any of the reasons the OP suggested.

[Major Nikon]

18. That's not all you did

You left out the "Rather broad brush" part which was the subject line. You also implied the OP was suggesting something which contradicts that assertion.

[zipplewrath]

20. It was

But that doesn't shut down any discussion. It merely attempts to quantify it.

[Major Nikon]

22. You say tomato, I say tomato

Either way the intent was clear.

[zipplewrath]

23. You see things that aren't there

There was no intent to shut down anything.

[Major Nikon]

24. Believe it or not "Rather broad brush" actually was there

In fact you found significant enough to include in the subject line, yet conveniently excluded from the explanation when called on it. Very telling that.

If you want to walk your own statement back, feel free. Probably not a bad idea anyway. My point is made.

[zipplewrath]

26. It was a broad brush

But the intent was not to shut anything down. THAT's the part that isn't there.

[Major Nikon]

31. If you say so, but I'm not the only one who heard the dawg whistle

Just sayin'

[yallerdawg]

19. Are you familiar with the 11th Commandment?

"Thou shalt not make any positive references to religion, religious beliefs, or theists in this group."

Appears to include neutral opinions - or how about just having another opinion?

[Major Nikon]

21. As fully predicted, the false allegations of intolerance are right on cue

You should be commended for underscoring that point.

[yallerdawg]

25. Down here in my neck of the woods we have a saying:

"A kicked dog howls loudest!"

[Major Nikon]

33. There's one that's popular around here as well

"That dog won't hunt".

[marylandblue]

37. Can you write a post that doesn't include laughing at your own bad jokes?

Maybe something that actually addresses point as well? You seem more interested in amusing yourself than anything else.

[yallerdawg]

38. No smilie or emoji?

You're serious?

You know - that's exactly what I was afraid of.

[marylandblue]

39. I am serious, and you never seem to be

It gets tiresome.

[Voltaire2]

45. What is the emoji in post 25?

It looks like a snickering imbecile to me, but that can’t be right. Any clue?

[marylandblue]

46. Definitely a snicker

I take no position on whether it's an imbecile.

[Major Nikon]

47. Just a guess...

[Mariana]

44. Yes, people who disagree with you get to post here, too.

How unspeakably awful that must be for you.

[marylandblue]

29. I agree that religious people are looking for community or spirituality

Last edited Mon May 14, 2018, 12:12 PM - Edit history (1)

But I think problems occur when religious authorities try to control people's religious desires for their own ends. They tell people that only certain forms of religious expression are okay. Or they channel everything into a political or money-making agenda.

[zipplewrath]

35. Yup

When religion gets involved in politics/power all the trouble starts. Any religion that involves the idea that somehow the deity needs us to kill others to protect him or defeat his enemies really should be questioned seriously.

Quite honestly, if you look at history outside of theology, you see that huge populations of people conform to certain religions merely to "belong". And they will fairly easily change in order to "follow the crowd". Unfortunately, that makes for a pre-organized population of people for leaders to manipulate into hostilities.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

41. "Merely to belong"....

makes one wonder how many at Jonestown or with the Branch Davidians really did not want to be there.

[Mariana]

51. None of the children at Jonestown or Waco had any choice.

But, that's true of every religious group - the children are forced to participate by their parents.

[zipplewrath]

53. Primary attraction of Cults

Belonging is a primary feature of cults. And keeping them there is done through threats of no longer belonging. In the process, they tend to make sure one is cut off from any other "tribe".

[KY_EnviroGuy]

54. Good points and....

sort of brings my thinking in a circle to think of Republicans and their rabid demonization of the "other".

[guillaumeb]

34. Patriotism is another belief system.

With the same perceptions that allow people to justify what they do.

The atheists who ruled in the USSR and China undoubtedly thought that their own beliefs justified their own intolerance for difference.

[Major Nikon]

36. The irony they employed the same tactics seems lost on some

Whataboutism (also known as whataboutery) is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument,[1][2][3] which is particularly associated with Soviet and Russian propaganda.[4][5][6] When criticisms were leveled at the Soviet Union during the Cold War, the Soviet response would be "What about..." followed by an event in the Western world.[7][8][9]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

[guillaumeb]

56. I am well aware that you know about this technique.

Ironic indeed.

[Major Nikon]

58. #8

[Eko]

40. True.

There are plenty of things that can cause damage to societies as I said in my post. Patriotism is indeed one of them and I would be happy to have that discussion with you, but not in the Religion group as it would be the wrong forum. Feel free to post it in GD or wherever you feel it is appropriate and I will happily join you in that discussion.

[marylandblue]

48. There's that ubiquitous belief system thing again

It's like I can't even take a piss without a belief system about indoor plumbing.

[Major Nikon]

61. I believe the sun will come up tomorrow. So I must have a belief system.