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Fri May 18, 2018, 07:03 PM

Do you ever get the impression you're being ignored?

You might just be right.














http://www.pewforum.org/2018/04/25/when-americans-say-they-believe-in-god-what-do-they-mean/

66 replies, 4162 views

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Arrow 66 replies Author Time Post
Reply Do you ever get the impression you're being ignored? (Original post)
yallerdawg May 2018 OP
dhol82 May 2018 #1
marylandblue May 2018 #4
Crutchez_CuiBono May 2018 #2
Mariana May 2018 #5
asiliveandbreathe May 2018 #3
Cartoonist May 2018 #6
MineralMan May 2018 #7
Voltaire2 May 2018 #8
guillaumeb May 2018 #9
Voltaire2 May 2018 #13
guillaumeb May 2018 #15
Bretton Garcia May 2018 #30
Voltaire2 May 2018 #41
guillaumeb May 2018 #46
Voltaire2 May 2018 #48
guillaumeb May 2018 #52
Voltaire2 May 2018 #56
guillaumeb May 2018 #10
Ron Obvious May 2018 #11
guillaumeb May 2018 #12
Voltaire2 May 2018 #14
guillaumeb May 2018 #16
Voltaire2 May 2018 #21
guillaumeb May 2018 #22
Lordquinton May 2018 #25
Mariana May 2018 #27
Bretton Garcia May 2018 #31
Mariana May 2018 #34
Lordquinton May 2018 #35
Mariana May 2018 #37
Lordquinton May 2018 #38
Mariana May 2018 #39
Lordquinton May 2018 #40
guillaumeb May 2018 #42
Lordquinton May 2018 #47
guillaumeb May 2018 #50
Lordquinton May 2018 #53
guillaumeb May 2018 #54
Lordquinton May 2018 #55
guillaumeb May 2018 #57
Lordquinton May 2018 #58
guillaumeb May 2018 #59
Lordquinton May 2018 #60
guillaumeb May 2018 #61
Lordquinton May 2018 #62
guillaumeb May 2018 #63
Lordquinton May 2018 #64
guillaumeb May 2018 #65
Lordquinton May 2018 #66
yallerdawg May 2018 #17
Ron Obvious May 2018 #19
guillaumeb May 2018 #20
marylandblue May 2018 #33
Lordquinton May 2018 #36
guillaumeb May 2018 #43
Mariana May 2018 #28
Ron Obvious May 2018 #18
marylandblue May 2018 #23
guillaumeb May 2018 #44
Mariana May 2018 #26
guillaumeb May 2018 #45
Mariana May 2018 #49
guillaumeb May 2018 #51
SCantiGOP May 2018 #24
muriel_volestrangler May 2018 #29
Bretton Garcia May 2018 #32

Response to yallerdawg (Original post)

Fri May 18, 2018, 07:06 PM

1. Yeah, never bothered to talk to me.

What am I, chopped liver?

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Response to dhol82 (Reply #1)

Fri May 18, 2018, 07:21 PM

4. He only takes calls from numbers he recognizes, to avoid scammers

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Response to yallerdawg (Original post)

Fri May 18, 2018, 07:11 PM

2. the gods

are fairy tales and rules to control people by.

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Response to Crutchez_CuiBono (Reply #2)

Fri May 18, 2018, 07:22 PM

5. Very effective ones. nt.

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Response to yallerdawg (Original post)

Fri May 18, 2018, 07:14 PM

3. Yes, I felt invisible at the grocery store yesterday when checking out..

the cashier and bagger were just talkin' away..until, i'm sure the bagger FELT my body language..like all of sudden...would you like help out to the car?? - Maybe an "aura" was all around
me...a halo effect....NOT!!!!

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Response to yallerdawg (Original post)

Fri May 18, 2018, 07:26 PM

6. Wow, those numbers are going down

Looks like our work here is having an effect.

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Response to yallerdawg (Original post)

Fri May 18, 2018, 07:30 PM

7. Nope. You?

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Response to yallerdawg (Original post)

Fri May 18, 2018, 07:39 PM

8. 77% of Americans are delusional.

Yup. Not a surprise.

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #8)

Fri May 18, 2018, 08:33 PM

9. And one assumes that you do not consider yourself to be delusional.

Correct?

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #9)

Fri May 18, 2018, 09:29 PM

13. No I accept that is possible.

Just very unlikely with respect to this particular delusion.

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #13)

Fri May 18, 2018, 09:34 PM

15. I also accpet that possibility for myself,

but not in this area.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #15)

Sat May 19, 2018, 07:47 AM

30. Given so many contradictions between religions

Last edited Sat May 19, 2018, 08:44 AM - Edit history (1)

And within them.

And between them and science.

And then all the historical deaths they have caused....

You must added all that up, and decided that yes, this is something you absolutely trust and believe, absolutely, faithfully and without question?

Or did you originally buy it all, without thinking much, as a child? Because the preachers seemed so nice, and before you developed a critical adult mind, they told you their teachings were perfect?

And once your brain was washed as a child, few have the strength and independence to break away.

And now with serene vanity, ignoring all problems, ... you extol its wonders; endlessly.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #15)

Sun May 20, 2018, 08:26 AM

41. Wait, what?

You now believe, without any doubt, in gods that intervene to protect you?

That is the 77% item I responded to as “delusional”. Did you not understand that? Do you understand that your assertion that you believe in gods that directly intervene in this world contradicts some of your other statements about your faith in this forum?

It is almost as if you fit your statements here about whatever it is that you believe to whatever point you happen to be arguing. But that level of sophistry would be blatantly dishonest. You must have just misunderstood what the 77% referred to.

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #41)

Sun May 20, 2018, 03:36 PM

46. No, I do not.

Your previous reply was somewhat vague. So that is on you to be more specific.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #46)

Sun May 20, 2018, 04:38 PM

48. No it wasn't. There is only one category of 77%

in that list. But if you misunderstood that is fine, you certainly have the opportunity to, for once, correct and clarify your own statements here.

Do you believe that there is, as 77% of Americans do, an interventionist god that protects them?

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #48)

Sun May 20, 2018, 05:22 PM

52. Read #13 in context,

and then read #15 in context.

We were talking solely about the possibility of being deluded in general.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #52)

Sun May 20, 2018, 08:33 PM

56. Seriously?

As usual you have some other version of English with your own definitions of common words.

13. No I accept that is possible.
Just very unlikely with respect to this particular delusion.

15. I also accpet that possibility for myself,
but not in this area.

WTF?

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Response to yallerdawg (Original post)

Fri May 18, 2018, 08:53 PM

10. What percentage of atheists believe in a higher power?

Well, since I asked:

Although the literal definition of “atheist” is “a person who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods,” according to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, 8% of those who call themselves atheists also say they believe in God or a universal spirit. Indeed, 2% say they are “absolutely certain” about the existence of God or a universal spirit. Alternatively, there are many people who fit the dictionary definition of “atheist” but do not call themselves atheists. About three times as many Americans say they do not believe in God or a universal spirit (9%) as say they are atheists (3%).


http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/06/01/10-facts-about-atheists/

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #10)

Fri May 18, 2018, 09:18 PM

11. Those aren't atheists then.

While it's possible (though unlikely) for an atheist to believe in an afterlife or reincarnation, say, believing in gods or universal spirits is right out.

Believe what you want, but the definition of atheism is clear and binary.

Atheism: a-theism, i.e. without theism, i.e., no gods. No more, no less.

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Response to Ron Obvious (Reply #11)

Fri May 18, 2018, 09:21 PM

12. But if they call themselves atheists,

would you tell them that they are not?

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #12)

Fri May 18, 2018, 09:31 PM

14. They can call themselves Napoleon too.

But by the common definition of both atheism and napoleon they are neither.

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #14)

Fri May 18, 2018, 09:34 PM

16. So no true atheist would so believe?

Interesting.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #16)

Fri May 18, 2018, 09:45 PM

21. It is, again, not a religion, nor a belief system.

It is the condition of not believing in any gods.

It has a simple and precise definition, as does the condition of being Napoleon Bonaparte. Note that theism has a similar property. One either believes in one or more gods that exist in the world or one does not.

The property “Christian” on the other hand is ambiguous, there is no concise definition. If you can provide an objective rule for who is or is not a Christian, other than “they claim to be Christians”, we can use that to categorize people.

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #21)

Fri May 18, 2018, 09:50 PM

22. If they call themselves atheists,

I accept that self-definition.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #22)

Sat May 19, 2018, 03:09 AM

25. You always have had trouble

with the actual definitions of words.

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Response to Lordquinton (Reply #25)

Sat May 19, 2018, 03:28 AM

27. The question in that poll appears to be deliberately worded

so as to confuse the issue. What exactly is a "universal spirit"? It's not the same thing as a god, because those respondents were asked if they believe in a god or in a "universal spirit". Those who believe in "universal spirits" but who don't believe in any gods are atheists.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #27)

Sat May 19, 2018, 07:52 AM

31. Someone might believe in the spirit of love....

Or the spirit of rational inquiry, I guess.

Or a spirit that wasn't a god?

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Response to Bretton Garcia (Reply #31)

Sat May 19, 2018, 09:53 AM

34. Your guess is as good as mine.

It's weird they used such vague wording, unless it was done intentionally to elicit more "Yes" answers.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #27)

Sat May 19, 2018, 06:00 PM

35. It amazes me how some can have absolute conviction

In something they can't even define except to say what it isn't.

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Response to Lordquinton (Reply #35)

Sat May 19, 2018, 06:11 PM

37. Surveys usually don't ask for the respondents' definitions

so of course those definitions would not be given and would not appear in the survey report.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #37)

Sat May 19, 2018, 06:21 PM

38. Which is why we get this "It all means the same thing, right?"

Which usually means their own personal interpretation, and leads to things like "Atheists believe in god!"

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Response to Lordquinton (Reply #38)

Sat May 19, 2018, 06:38 PM

39. The question was probably written that way intentionally

to skew the results. Ask a group of people "Do you believe in a god?" and you'll get X people who say yes. Ask those same people "Do you believe in a god or in a (conveniently undefined) universal spirit?" then you'll get X + Y people who say yes. Then you imply they all believe in pretty much the same thing.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #39)

Sat May 19, 2018, 08:00 PM

40. Seems intellectually dishonest

And also familiar...

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Response to Lordquinton (Reply #25)

Sun May 20, 2018, 03:30 PM

42. And the atheists who believe in a higher power?

Are you the official definer?

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #42)

Sun May 20, 2018, 04:21 PM

47. You aren't

as much as you claim to be.

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Response to Lordquinton (Reply #47)

Sun May 20, 2018, 05:15 PM

50. And you are?

You made a statement that implies much.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #50)

Sun May 20, 2018, 06:37 PM

53. Sorry G-man, you aren't the arbitrator

and your deflections are pathetically transparent.

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Response to Lordquinton (Reply #53)

Sun May 20, 2018, 07:07 PM

54. And you are the arbitrator?

Referring to your earlier pronouncement on what is the sole official acceptable definition of atheism.

The very definitive illustration of the no true Scotsman fallacy in action.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #54)

Sun May 20, 2018, 07:37 PM

55. Really? I don't recall ever doing that

You must be thinking of one of your posts.

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Response to Lordquinton (Reply #55)

Sun May 20, 2018, 09:22 PM

57. A worrying sign for you.

Considering that it happened very recently.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #57)

Sun May 20, 2018, 09:25 PM

58. Where?

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Response to Lordquinton (Reply #58)

Sun May 20, 2018, 09:28 PM

59. Above thread, in #25.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #59)

Sun May 20, 2018, 09:33 PM

60. So no where?

While I have your attention, can you answer the question I asked here?

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Response to Lordquinton (Reply #60)

Sun May 20, 2018, 09:48 PM

61. Was that a question?

I saw it as a tactic on your part.

And I still do.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #61)

Sun May 20, 2018, 10:03 PM

62. So no answer?

Yes it is a tactic. I ask direct questions and theists deflect, reframe, and hurl abuse to get out of answering them.

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Response to Lordquinton (Reply #62)

Mon May 21, 2018, 11:50 AM

63. Thank you for illustrating your tactics again.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #63)

Mon May 21, 2018, 12:57 PM

64. Why are you scared of answering questions?

Can you answer the one I linked above?

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Response to Lordquinton (Reply #64)

Mon May 21, 2018, 04:42 PM

65. There are questions,

and there are statements followed by a question mark.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #65)

Mon May 21, 2018, 07:41 PM

66. And I asked a question

Rather straight forward one at that.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #12)

Fri May 18, 2018, 09:37 PM

17. Could an atheist believe an "indefinable something" started it all...

or was out there somewhere but absolutely has no relationship with us or the universe or the whatever, completely ambivalent to our existence?

Wouldn't that be an atheist - not an "I-don't-know-for-sure agnostic" - but most definitely not a theist?

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #17)

Fri May 18, 2018, 09:44 PM

19. It's perfectly reasonable, in fact wise, to say "I don't know".

I don't know if anything might have preceded the Big Bang (if that question even makes sense), or if there's a multiverse. Maybe I'll never know. That's perfectly fine.

It's when you start making up stories with no evidence other than that you'd like them to be true or because you feel there has to be a purpose to it all, that's when you leave the path of wisdom.

"I don't know": A perfectly acceptable and honest answer, until such a time as evidence can be presented and examined.

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #17)

Fri May 18, 2018, 09:44 PM

20. A good question.

But if that indefinable something was a creative force, the prime mover, I would argue that we are arguing over wording.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #20)

Sat May 19, 2018, 09:26 AM

33. All of those terms will mean different things to different people

And so if you ask about each of them separately, people will respond differently to each.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #20)

Sat May 19, 2018, 06:00 PM

36. So it's back to semiotics?

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Response to Lordquinton (Reply #36)

Sun May 20, 2018, 03:31 PM

43. Or semantics? eom

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Response to yallerdawg (Reply #17)

Sat May 19, 2018, 03:41 AM

28. I think those people are generally considered deists.

Your "indefinable something" reminds me of the vague, rather meaningless "nature's god" mentioned in the Declaration of Independence. And the "universal spirit" asked about in the survey Gil is going on about. Those are other ways to say "indefinable something".

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #12)

Fri May 18, 2018, 09:39 PM

18. I doubt that I would care enough to.

I've long ago resigned from the debating society, but if they were to ask me if I considered them atheists, I would say I didn't.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #10)

Fri May 18, 2018, 10:08 PM

23. The questions are too vague to be helpful here.

They asked about "God or a universal spirit." Some people may believe that a universal spirit is not a god. Others may affiliate themselves with a religion and so not call themselves atheists but they might not believe in God.

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Response to marylandblue (Reply #23)

Sun May 20, 2018, 03:32 PM

44. And each person might "hear" the question differently.

Thus the different answers.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #10)

Sat May 19, 2018, 03:10 AM

26. What the hell is a "universal spirit"?

Clearly, it isn't the same thing as a god, since respondents were asked if they believe in a god or a universal spirit. If they don't believe in any gods but do believe in a "universal spirit", then they are indeed atheists. There is no conflict, they are using the word correctly.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #26)

Sun May 20, 2018, 03:33 PM

45. So what, in your own view, would this universal spirit be?

A collective consciousness?

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #45)

Sun May 20, 2018, 04:48 PM

49. I'm not going to make up a definition.

It would be interesting to know what the participants in the survey, the ones who believe there is such a thing, think it means.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #49)

Sun May 20, 2018, 05:16 PM

51. True. eom

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Response to yallerdawg (Original post)

Fri May 18, 2018, 11:41 PM

24. You better do what Jesus wants

Or he will send you to eternal damnation.
Why?
Because he loves you.

(apologies to G Carlin)

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Response to yallerdawg (Original post)

Sat May 19, 2018, 06:24 AM

29. Not really, though clearly, many Americans believe they're being watched

More generally, 53% of all adults describe themselves as having no religious affiliation, up from 48% in 2015. The latest figure is the highest since the BSA survey began tracking religious affiliation in 1983, when 31% said they had no religion.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/04/half-uk-population-has-no-religion-british-social-attitudes-survey

A YouGov poll for the Times has shown a four-point decline in the percentage of people who believe in a higher power, from 32 per cent in February last year to 28 per cent now.

The drop suggests a far sharper decrease than in previous years, the Times says. Britons' belief in God has long been in decline, but at a rate of about one per cent a year, the newspaper reports, citing a different question used by the British Attitudes Survey in 1991, which found half the population thought there was a god.

By 2008 the number of believers had fallen to about 35 per cent, suggesting a roughly one per cent decline per annum.

Meanwhile the proportion of atheists – people who say they do not actively believe in any kind of god – has risen from 33 per cent to 38 per cent.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/80065/belief-in-god-plunges-after-torrid-year

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #29)

Sat May 19, 2018, 07:58 AM

32. Sociologists agree that such" trends" are important.

About as much as, or more than, existing raw numbers.

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