Theism, and other belief systems.

[guillaumeb]

First, what are they?

Obviously a belief system is a method of looking at the world and interacting with it. As one definition suggests:

The belief system of a person or society is the set of beliefs that they have about what is right and wrong and what is true and false.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/belief-system

So a belief system can be based on theism, or patriotism, or any other system that one might use.
I have previously suggested that atheism is also a belief system, and a few self-defined atheists at DU have strongly disagreed with me, insisting that atheism is merely the absence of any theistic belief.
My argument was that if a person used atheism as a way of defining truth and falsity, that constitutes a belief system. And I was told, quite strongly, that I was attempting as a theist to define atheism for atheists.

So when I read the following passage, from one of the self-defined DU atheists, I was confused.

The passage:

So, there it is. Belief in the "divine" is a belief in the existence of deities. Atheism is the disbelief in deities or the certain belief that no deities exist. The two things are incompatible, by definition.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1218287061

Now that sounds like a belief system to me, and it also sounds like a definite assertion of what is true and what is false, at least according to the one atheist who wrote it.

Perhaps atheism, like theism, has a variety of positions?

[guillaumeb]

1. Another type of belief system is patriotism.

With officially accepted history serving as the holy book.

[marylandblue]

6. Patriotism does not require that you believe myths about your country

[guillaumeb]

12. But many do believe such myths.

And many call these myths history.

[marylandblue]

13. then that is not a belief system called "patriotism"

It might be "American Exceptionalism" or something like that . Something with content. Patriotism has no content.

[guillaumeb]

15. Define patriotism with no associated content.

Patriotism is defined as a love of country. And the word country does not refer to the soil, but to the concept of a country apart from other places.

[marylandblue]

21. you just defined patriot as love of country

I am a patriot. Can you now tell me what I believe about my country, other than I love it above other countries?

[guillaumeb]

54. I am a theist.

Can you tell me, if we have never met, what my positions and beliefs are?

[marylandblue]

63. No, that's why theism, is a belief, not a belief system.

As contrasted to a belief system like liberalism. Knowing only that you are an American liberal, I can guess you are in favor of government aid to the poor, racial equality and don't like the current president.

[guillaumeb]

69. Theism is an unprovable belief in the existence of a deity/deities.

Under that umbrella are many different systems.

[marylandblue]

71. You provide a definition of belief system

"The belief system of a person or society is the set of beliefs that they have about what is right and wrong and what is true and false."

Theism doesn't tell you anything about right or wrong, and only tells you one thing about what is true. It is not a "set." The things under it may be belief systems, but theism itself is not.

[guillaumeb]

72. Theism is a type of belief system.

Under that heading, individual religions provide their own definitions of right and wrong behavior.

[marylandblue]

74. So individual religions are belief systems

But a bunch of religions are not. They don't met the definition. A heading is just a heading.

[longship]

2. Perhaps atheism isn't what theists want it to be, just another way to believe.

One really gets tired of the same, old arguments from these theist witnesses. They literally cannot stand that some folks just don't see their gods as existent. So they make shit up about atheists.

[guillaumeb]

3. So you disagree with the linked definition?

Your right.

[longship]

7. "Your right."???

Where's the verb, guillaumeb?

I disagree with just about all theist characterizations of atheists. They are all of a simple, single formula. That pretty much makes them all wrong.

[guillaumeb]

9. You were within your rights to disagree....

but you disagreed with another atheist who defined atheism. That was my link. So when a person characterizes theists as being fine with lying and other things, what is your response to that?

[longship]

77. It's always theists who try to speak for non-theists

Theists generally make things up about atheists. I call that bearing false witness.

That's my response.

[Cary]

4. It is odd that people need to persuade others of their faith

It seems to me that must come from lack of confidence.

[sprinkleeninow]

82. Aww, Longship. I was under the impression we was sorta buds. 🤔

[longship]

84. Aww! You ARE my bud.

I don't care what people believe, or not. It's how they act in conjunction with those beliefs that make the difference.
Some believers just cannot help but characterize atheists as some kind of alternate believers. That is a very strange characterization which I specifically reject.

I like many people here, including both believers and non-believers.

[sprinkleeninow]

93. 😍

[marylandblue]

5. I think you are making a multilevel error

You confusing beliefs (like theism) with belief systems (a set of beliefs, like Christianity) with emotions (like patriotism) with the basis of a belief system (like the Bible or science). These are related things, but they are not the same at all, each one having different functions in an individual's psyche.

That's a lot of things to mix up at once, so it makes it difficult to respond further.

[guillaumeb]

10. I am characterizing what constitutes a belief system,

and referencing one person's characterization of atheism as a belief system.

[Eko]

16. Belief system:

a set of principles or tenets which together form the basis of a religion, philosophy, or moral code. Notice the pluralism on principles and tenets? Besides one form or another that there is no god what other principles or tenets do atheists have to follow to be an atheist?

[guillaumeb]

18. There are multiple definitions.

And I also provided one.

A classic situation of dueling definitions.

[Eko]

20. So prove yours.

"set of beliefs". That's plural. Atheism is only the belief that there is no god or a version of that.

[marylandblue]

23. If I am reading correctly, that person called atheism a belief

not a belief system. A system is the sum of inter-related parts. You have a circulatory system. Is a single vein the same as the whole system?

[guillaumeb]

24. Separate the part from the whole.

And read the link to see the original post and ask this of the poster. Not one person argued with the original post or the poster.

[marylandblue]

25. Separate the part from the whole, then you have just a vein

Not the circulatory system. The poster only defined atheism. It is a belief. It may be part of his own belief system. But you'd need to ask him what that system is.

[guillaumeb]

35. And if it is an aspect of the poster's belief system,

it is a belief system. We all have beliefs, and how they interrelate defines what we are, and defines our own personal belief system.

[marylandblue]

64. A part is equal to the whole? How does that happen?

Is a liver a human being?
Is a wheel a car?
Is "F= " an equation?

[Act_of_Reparation]

97. ...

[safeinOhio]

8. My system is is most like the

Ethical Soceity group. As humanist we put humans before Gods.

[guillaumeb]

11. Given that all of our interactions are with fellow humans,

I understand.

[Eko]

14. Exactly how does one

"use{d} atheism as a way of defining truth and falsity". Is there a book, instructions, a how to video on how to use atheism to define truth and falsity?

[guillaumeb]

17. As the linked poster opined:

So, there it is. Belief in the "divine" is a belief in the existence of deities. Atheism is the disbelief in deities or the certain belief that no deities exist. The two things are incompatible, by definition.

So according to this opinion, atheism is a certain belief that no deities exist. Thus the atheist, at least as defined by this person, sees as truth that there are no deities.

[Eko]

19. What?

You're not telling me how one used Atheism to come to that conclusion, you're telling me what they are calling the conclusion, Atheism.

[guillaumeb]

22. The poster arrived at an unprovable conclusion.

An unprovable conclusion requires a belief.

[marylandblue]

26. Actually, the poster just defined atheism

Then proved logically that you can't be a theistic atheist. Based on that post alone, you can't even tell if he is an atheist or not. It's something you know from his other posts.

[guillaumeb]

36. The poster proved nothing.

The poster defined his personal belief.

[marylandblue]

67. The poster developed a logical syllogism

He didn't actually say anything about his beliefs. It comes down to this:

An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in God. (Proposition 1, definition of atheism).
Sally believes in God (Proposition 2).
Sally is not an atheist (Conclusion).

Which of those is my personal belief?

[guillaumeb]

70. The poster defined atheism,

as a disbelief in a deity, and a certain belief in the same thing. There is no logic there, simply a statement of opinion which is also a statement of belief.

[marylandblue]

73. You either need a course in logic or have to come up with a better definition of atheism

[guillaumeb]

112. And what of the post that defined atheism

as a certain belief?

[marylandblue]

114. That's part of that definition, do you have another?

[guillaumeb]

115. So atheism is a belief.

But some few here insist that it is not a belief, and none of those same few argued with MM when he said it that it is a belief. Interesting example of outrage and consistency.

[marylandblue]

116. My focus here is on the definition and its logical consequences.

If you feel that MM is being inconsistent with his own beliefs, why don't you ask him about it?

[guillaumeb]

117. My focus is on the tactics,

and the seeming variability of the positions depending on who says what.

[marylandblue]

118. I am not interested in tactics

People use them all the time. It's no big deal. It's kind of boring really, like reading the Army Manual, that's full of tactics too. Snooze.

But if you are concerned about excess variability of positions, why don't you ask those variable people about it? You have suggested the same thing as a tactic. When you do it, it's a tactic because those people aren't on this board to ask. I am doing it here, not as a tactic, but because you can ask the question right here, right now, of people who can answer here.

[guillaumeb]

119. But such tactics,

such variability, if you will, speak of selective outrage and selective positions depending on the situation.

[marylandblue]

120. Yeah so? welcome to the world.

[guillaumeb]

121. Welcome to dialogue?

Sad when the politics of something can deter actual dialogue, and appreciation for our commonalities.

I have a thread about the fight for wages, and none of the objections actually addressed the actual substance of the post.

It almost seems as if some feel compelled to respond negatively by reflex.


edited to add: Here is the post:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1218287403

[marylandblue]

122. You are too concerned with how other people respond

You are expecting a certain type of response that you will never get.

[Mariana]

123. Poor poor persecuted Gil.

Yes, people who disagree with you get to post here, too. How unspeakably awful that must be for you.

[guillaumeb]

124. Poor Mariana.

If only you had responded to the actual point, rather than the straw man that you constructed.

[Eko]

27. No its not.

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. You say there is a god, you have no proof and no one does, conclusion there is no god = Atheism. Atheism is not that there never was or could be one, it is the label one uses when they come to the conclusion that since there is no evidence for it there is no reason to believe it exists. Its not a belief, its a label for a conclusion.

[Act_of_Reparation]

31. Sigh.

Just gonna leave this here for anyone interested in knowing what they're talking about.

Null Hypothesis

[Major Nikon]

33. Sure, and evolution is only a theory, just like creationism

I get you are convinced you are being clever, but believe it or not you aren’t the first one to come up with this nonsense.

[guillaumeb]

37. About what I expected from you.

[Major Nikon]

40. I expected you to pose an unsupportable assertion, then claim everyone else is confused

You know, just like always.

[guillaumeb]

41. There is another frequent poster who specializes in that.

What I expected was the choir to show up. And I was rewarded. Well, rewarded is not the exact word, but I am certain you will understand.

[Major Nikon]

46. I'm certain I don't

But at least the fan club was well rewarded.

[guillaumeb]

47. I have faith in your ability. eom

[Eko]

29. Why are you skipping over this part?

"disbelief in deities".

[guillaumeb]

39. And what of the entire quote?

Simply an unprovable belief.

[Major Nikon]

42. I believe you never proved that to begin with

[Eko]

59. There are two parts to this.

"Atheism is the disbelief in deities or the certain belief that no deities exist."
This "disbelief in deities" is the first part. Is that an unprovable belief? See the dis part of disbelief?

[guillaumeb]

65. It is framed as 2 things.

The first, being unprovable, is itself a belief, and the second is also unprovable.

[Eko]

101. "Atheism is the disbelief in deities" is unprovable?

Defining a word is unprovable?

[Eko]

109. Hello?

Just waiting for your answer to my comment. Post 101.
Thanks!

[MineralMan]

110. Ah...that poster only responds when it suits him.

[guillaumeb]

113. An ironic response.

[Major Nikon]

28. I believe I'll have another beer

Therefore I must have a belief system.

[Eko]

30. Ill have another also,

Now its an organized religion, lol

[Major Nikon]

32. Sweet Jesus!

[guillaumeb]

38. A leap of logic worthy of an Olympic long jumper.

[Major Nikon]

44. That's rich

[marylandblue]

34. How did you arrive at that beer?

If you went to your refrigerator, then you must believe in refrigeration systems. Therefore you only have the unprovable conclusion that you are drinking beer. You can't prove it because you are already too impaired to think. Please don't drive.

[Voltaire2]

43. Earth and other Solar Systems.

[guillaumeb]

45. One of your better ones.

Congratulations.

[Voltaire2]

48. Queen Elizabeth and other Political Systems.

[guillaumeb]

50. You outdid yourself.

A certificate of appreciation will be forthcoming.

[Voltaire2]

49. The Federal Reserve and other Economic Systems.

[guillaumeb]

51. First, second, and third place.

[Major Nikon]

52. Bart Simpson and other method actors

[guillaumeb]

53. An improvement.

[Major Nikon]

55. A decline

[guillaumeb]

56. Rotate the chart 180 degrees.

[Major Nikon]

57. Even your fan club has to be getting bored by now

[guillaumeb]

58. Elevate your level of dialogue.

And see what happens.

[Major Nikon]

61. Canned responses are what happens

Duh

[trotsky]

87. "Elevate your level of dialogue."

[sprinkleeninow]

60. I'm always delighted by Guillaume's wit and savvy responses.

He one of my wise sages of which I have two to date.

Guillaume. Mon Cher. Bon soir!

💙🇺🇸🌊
the loiterers out!

[guillaumeb]

66. I am not certain of the "wit" portion.

But thank you.

[marylandblue]

75. You give him too much credit.

[sprinkleeninow]

76. Well, I don't 'believe' so. 😤

[marylandblue]

78. lol

[sprinkleeninow]

80. Hello there!

I have a certain fondness for youuu. 🤗

Just sayin'....😉

[marylandblue]

85. awww

[MineralMan]

111. That's why I insist on cash...

[Lordquinton]

62. You claim to want dialogue

Then insult everyone who doesn't agree with you.

So predictable, though you seem rather inscenced today, if kinda lonely.

Everything alright?

[guillaumeb]

68. You do realize how applicable your comment is to the choir,

do you not?

[Lordquinton]

79. I do realize how applicable it is: not at all

those you rudely refer to as "the choir" (aka: anyone who disagrees with you) have attempted many many times to engage in dialoge, and you don't. You refuse. Then you go make another thread accusing them of not wanting dialogue.

Many have given up trying to have dialogue because, you just don't? Like, you say something, someone makes a comment, then you just stop having a conversation? Like, can't even answer a simple question, you twist and turn until the whole thing is unrecognisable to the point of accidentally defending nazis that one time.

Be the change you want to see.

[sprinkleeninow]

83. 📣 Fair Ladies and Dudes: The "Choir" v. "The Fan Club" and

its 'Raison D'être'. 🤼

[Act_of_Reparation]

89. "Many have given up trying to have dialogue"

Bingo.

[trotsky]

91. Oh I'll still try.

Only to further prove that he doesn't actually care to do it.

The more people who are exposed to his tactics, the better.

[Lordquinton]

104. I do too

until I can't deal with it anymore because he does something so far over the top, like the time he repeatedly linked to someone's post in a protected group until he got that post hidden because he carried such a christian like grudge. Really, we should have a sticky of all these antics for the newbs so we don't have to constantly search and post them over and over when they pretend all that never happened.

[Lordquinton]

103. Yep.

Then the other old standby that theists use that everything started last tuesday, so the atheists are just being rude for NO REWASON AT ALL GUISE and are the sole reason things are the way they are because theey don't have gawd.

[Act_of_Reparation]

105. The forum does not predate the newest theist participant.

I did not exist until our little buddy started posting. It is totes unfair of me to act like I haven't heard these lame arguments and petulant tactics a thousand times before. I will be more patient with the nonsense.

[sprinkleeninow]

81. Whazzat to be 'incense'? We perfume our church services with it. Mmmm.

[Mariana]

88. "Incense" is also a verb. nt.

[MineralMan]

90. Indeed. I thought everyone knew that.

I'm incensed that so many people have severely limited vocabularies. I'm not sure where the blame for that lies.

[sprinkleeninow]

94. Well, I know that. Inscencsed.

[sprinkleeninow]

95. I took advantage of that word used above thread in a seemingly

pleasant way, but I guess not.

[trotsky]

86. Theism isn't a belief system.

Neither is atheism.

Christianity is a belief system. Humanism is a belief system. Communism is a belief system.

BTW, I'm sorry about your close friend who got banned. No, not that one. No, not that one either. The most recent one.

[Major Nikon]

92. Who is the most recent one?

Hard to keep track. No doubt most are simply reincarnations.

[MineralMan]

96. The most recent DUer I've seen who was shown the door was

the one with the screen name of ollie10 or something like that. Yesterday, that DUer had the fifth post hidden in 90 days and was put on review. The last hidden post from that DUers appears to have been a personal attack on another DUer.

[marylandblue]

98. Is 5 the magic number?

[MineralMan]

99. Yes, apparently. That's been it for some time.

[Major Nikon]

100. That one reminds me of another DUer who now resides on the Island of Misfit Toys

Coincidentally right before the other one appeared.

[Mariana]

102. Funny how it happens that way. nt.

[trotsky]

106. This one:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=343644

Most definitely a reincarnation.

[Major Nikon]

107. The magic carpet

[Bretton Garcia]

108. Some beliefs seem better--founded than others.

You can 1) believe the moon is made of green cheese.

Or you can 2) follow science, and believe what physical evidence says.

Which belief seems better?

To Guil, apparently,.they have equal status.