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Did Jesus choose to die? (Original Post) edhopper Jul 2018 OP
It's a story. Lots of things happen in stories. MineralMan Jul 2018 #1
True edhopper Jul 2018 #2
It's not framed as a suicide, but as a sacrifice. MineralMan Jul 2018 #3
So do as I say.... edhopper Jul 2018 #4
I never take mythology as anything but stories MineralMan Jul 2018 #5
I wrote something downthread Mariana Jul 2018 #9
Suicide is the act of taking one's own life. JayhawkSD Jul 2018 #6
Suicide by cop Cartoonist Jul 2018 #10
Suicide by Roman (nt) NeoGreen Jul 2018 #37
I agree with cartoonist edhopper Jul 2018 #13
If you fall into a lake and just let yourself drown... Act_of_Reparation Jul 2018 #14
That's not like what Jesus did, though. Mariana Jul 2018 #19
I mean, *I* get why Jesus didn't snap his fingers and Thanos the whole Roman Empire. Act_of_Reparation Jul 2018 #20
if he let it happen edhopper Jul 2018 #23
Well, if you read the story Mariana Jul 2018 #7
That was Herod? Damn. I thougt it was Josh Mostel. 3Hotdogs Jul 2018 #16
And later edhopper Jul 2018 #24
Herod died when Jesus was pre school grantcart Jul 2018 #36
I guess the author of the Gospel of Luke didn't get the memo. Mariana Jul 2018 #38
According to the story, Jesus was guilty Mariana Jul 2018 #39
There were several Herods: struggle4progress Jul 2018 #46
Internal integrity Cartoonist Jul 2018 #8
The way I see it TlalocW Jul 2018 #11
I gave up that whole mythology - An omniscient god takes the whole thing down packman Jul 2018 #12
What I find most offensive is the flood story TlalocW Jul 2018 #15
Faith is working your ass in a dither, trying to believe in something you know can't possibly 3Hotdogs Jul 2018 #17
You can believe anything by faith TlalocW Jul 2018 #18
It is a miracle people believe this nonsense. Voltaire2 Jul 2018 #27
Yeah, if I was a televangelist raking in $$$ off rubes, 3Hotdogs Jul 2018 #28
You are quite the logician, ed. Have you calculated how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Nitram Jul 2018 #21
1237 edhopper Jul 2018 #25
Define suicide. guillaumeb Jul 2018 #22
Not really edhopper Jul 2018 #26
Evidently he had 2nd thoughts Major Nikon Jul 2018 #29
Why would he bother to miracle himself a reprieve? Mariana Jul 2018 #31
At least it would have stopped the complaining Major Nikon Jul 2018 #32
Is it really suicide if you know you'll be alive again in a few days Mariana Jul 2018 #33
Hi edhopper - thank you for posting this thread (very thought provoking!) Pendrench Jul 2018 #30
thank you for the edhopper Jul 2018 #34
Always enjoy your posts Pendrench Jul 2018 #35
Suicides may be trying to teach people a lesson too. Voltaire2 Jul 2018 #40
Hi Voltaire2 - thank you for responding to my post. Pendrench Jul 2018 #42
Hi Voltaire2 - I've been thinking of your post (thank you, again!) and I had a few more thoughts Pendrench Jul 2018 #43
ok but the Jesus story had him with intent and Voltaire2 Jul 2018 #44
Hi Voltaire2 - thank you again for your response. Pendrench Jul 2018 #45
I like the old man for it. (n/t) Iggo Jul 2018 #41

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
1. It's a story. Lots of things happen in stories.
Tue Jul 17, 2018, 09:18 AM
Jul 2018

We have no contemporary writings that say that it even happened. There are no records of it happening that were made at the time. What we have is a story, written quite some time after that supposedly occurred.

That story also contains some other claims and statements that are pretty unbelievable. Some people believe the story. Others do not.

edhopper

(33,205 posts)
2. True
Tue Jul 17, 2018, 09:47 AM
Jul 2018

but stories should have internal integrity.
There are rites and rules that people who believe this story are compelled to live by.
If one of the most inerrant of these is against suicide, why did the most important figure in the whole of the Bible basically commit suicide?

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
9. I wrote something downthread
Tue Jul 17, 2018, 10:08 AM
Jul 2018

but I'd like to answer this as well. Suppose Jesus did plan it all purposely because he intended to be crucified. If Jesus knew or believed he was going to be physically resurrected after a few days, is it really a suicide?

 

JayhawkSD

(3,163 posts)
6. Suicide is the act of taking one's own life.
Tue Jul 17, 2018, 09:59 AM
Jul 2018

While Jesus did not resist having his life taken by others, he did not take his life himself. That ends the silliness about suicide.

Jesus chose not to resist the civil authorities when they arrested him on bogus charges and sentenced him to death. He followed the words which would later be in the bible, "Render unto Ceaser that which is Ceaser's."

I don't happen to be a churchgoer, have not been in a church since I was married 28 years ago, but I do have a basic ability to engage in logical thinking.

Cartoonist

(7,298 posts)
10. Suicide by cop
Tue Jul 17, 2018, 10:08 AM
Jul 2018

You never heard of that? He had to fake his death in order to die for ours and Adam's sins.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
14. If you fall into a lake and just let yourself drown...
Tue Jul 17, 2018, 11:09 AM
Jul 2018

...you're not passively committing suicide? Fascinating.

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
19. That's not like what Jesus did, though.
Tue Jul 17, 2018, 12:45 PM
Jul 2018

Everything in the story fits a man who knew he was in danger of execution, but didn't want it to happen. First, he pleaded with God to let him off the hook. He ordered his disciples not to resist the soldiers because he wasn't stupid - he knew perfectly well that if they harmed any of the soldiers he'd be buzzard bait for sure. He took pains to avoid self-incrimination during his interrogations. It's obvious to me, reading the stories, that he did not want to ride the cross.

The only thing he didn't do was perform a miracle to extract himself from the situation. But this doesn't necessarily mean he passively let himself be crucified. The most likely explanation for that, if the crucifixion story is true at all, is that he was just a man after all and didn't have magic powers to save himself.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
20. I mean, *I* get why Jesus didn't snap his fingers and Thanos the whole Roman Empire.
Tue Jul 17, 2018, 12:54 PM
Jul 2018

It's because he was a fucking huckster. A first century Dr. Oz.

But believers think he was the messiah, and have to account for how in the holy fuck he managed to get his omnipotent ass killed by some middling Roman administrator and his simian, knuckle-dragging lackies. The only explanation all the greatest Christian thinkers could come up with is "he let it happen", and then had figure out why he let it happen. What we got was blood atonement.

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
7. Well, if you read the story
Tue Jul 17, 2018, 10:01 AM
Jul 2018

it tells us that before his arrest, Jesus knew he was in a hell of a jam, and he prayed and begged God to get him out of it. Then, after Jesus was arrested, he was questioned by Pilate and also (in one version of the story) by Herod as well. He evaded answering their questions and was careful not to incriminate himself, and he succeeded, since neither of them found any reason to punish him and intended to let him go. So, it doesn't appear he was all that willing to die.

grantcart

(53,061 posts)
36. Herod died when Jesus was pre school
Wed Jul 18, 2018, 04:36 AM
Jul 2018

"In a jam"
On the sabbath before passover he went to the temple and whipped the merchants that were desecrating the Holy area with their commercial enterprise.

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
38. I guess the author of the Gospel of Luke didn't get the memo.
Wed Jul 18, 2018, 01:06 PM
Jul 2018

Luke 9 : 7-12 (NIV)

When [Pilate] learned that Jesus was under Herod's jurisdiction, he sent him to Herod, who was also in Jerusalem at that time. When Herod saw Jesus, he was greatly pleased, because for a long time he had been wanting to see him. From what he had heard about him, he hoped to see him perform a sign of some sort. He plied him with many questions, but Jesus gave him no answer. The chief priests and the teachers of the law were standing there, vehemently accusing him. Then Herod and his soldiers ridiculed and mocked him. Dressing him in an elegant robe, they sent him back to Pilate. That day Herod and Pilate became friends--before this they had been enemies.

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
39. According to the story, Jesus was guilty
Wed Jul 18, 2018, 01:37 PM
Jul 2018

of various crimes (according to our standards, at least) like assault and battery, animal abuse, vandalism, criminal trespass, and disorderly conduct. No wonder he was worried about his fate. Even so, Pilate (and Herod, according to the author of Luke) were going to let him go.

struggle4progress

(118,039 posts)
46. There were several Herods:
Thu Jul 19, 2018, 12:37 PM
Jul 2018

Herod the Great died around 4 BCE; his descendents Herod Archelaus around 18 CE, Herod Antipas around 39 CE, Herod Agrippa around 44 CE, Herod of Chalcis around 48 CE, and Herod Agrippa II around 90 CE

Cartoonist

(7,298 posts)
8. Internal integrity
Tue Jul 17, 2018, 10:04 AM
Jul 2018

Are you kidding me? The whole story of Jesus is filled with holes and contradictions. As for his death, that's the biggest sham of the whole fable.

He's supposed to be the son of God. He has super powers. He can survive in the desert for forty days. He can walk on water. He can raise people from the dead.

He's mortal? Only for three days it seems.

TlalocW

(15,358 posts)
11. The way I see it
Tue Jul 17, 2018, 10:15 AM
Jul 2018

An all-powerful god took human form because his previous attempt at cleaning up the world by hydro-mass murder failed, and he was either not smart enough or he was just too petty to forgive people naturally to let them into Heaven, so he inconvenienced himself for a weekend, leaving no solid proof one-way-or-another of what he did, expecting people to believe by faith (the worst way to believe) in order to enter paradise.

TlalocW

 

packman

(16,296 posts)
12. I gave up that whole mythology - An omniscient god takes the whole thing down
Tue Jul 17, 2018, 10:27 AM
Jul 2018

All knowing, every moment, every event predestined makes the whole Jesus sacrifice a stage play regardless of the twisted dialogue that religion throws at it. Judas was condemned from eternity to play his part, the Romans, Pilate, Herod, etc., etc. - a story written by the hand of God before the universe was born, if you believe in that nonsense.

TlalocW

(15,358 posts)
15. What I find most offensive is the flood story
Tue Jul 17, 2018, 11:52 AM
Jul 2018

An all-powerful, all-loving god's first choice for rebooting the world is to kill every man, woman, and infant except for less than a dozen people through the terrorizing process of drowning.

TlalocW

3Hotdogs

(12,209 posts)
17. Faith is working your ass in a dither, trying to believe in something you know can't possibly
Tue Jul 17, 2018, 12:01 PM
Jul 2018

be true.

Nitram

(22,671 posts)
21. You are quite the logician, ed. Have you calculated how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
Tue Jul 17, 2018, 02:12 PM
Jul 2018

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
22. Define suicide.
Tue Jul 17, 2018, 02:14 PM
Jul 2018

Apply it to what Jesus did.

By your apparent self-definition and logic, every soldier killed in combat committed suicide.

edhopper

(33,205 posts)
26. Not really
Tue Jul 17, 2018, 03:00 PM
Jul 2018

more like suicide by cop.
A soldier puts themselves in harms way, but not with the intention of dying, in fact they try not to die.

But some may kill themselves to save others. Still suicide.

So we now must ask how your church categorizes suicide that is allowed and suicide that is the gravest of moral sins.

I know suffering and dying rather than denouncing your faith at the point of a sword is all good with the Lord.

He is probably okay with lying to protect your life, unless that lie is about him, he is very prickly about how people talk about him.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
29. Evidently he had 2nd thoughts
Tue Jul 17, 2018, 09:37 PM
Jul 2018

On the cross he asked why he had forsaken himself, provided you have faith in the official story. Still one has to wonder why he didn’t miracle himself a reprieve. Mysterious ways I suppose.

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
31. Why would he bother to miracle himself a reprieve?
Tue Jul 17, 2018, 10:49 PM
Jul 2018

He was only going to be dead for a couple of days anyway.

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
33. Is it really suicide if you know you'll be alive again in a few days
Tue Jul 17, 2018, 10:58 PM
Jul 2018

walking around, eating, drinking, hanging out with your friends, and so on? Can it be said he really died at all? This is such an unusual situation that the usual rules may not apply.

Pendrench

(1,355 posts)
30. Hi edhopper - thank you for posting this thread (very thought provoking!)
Tue Jul 17, 2018, 10:32 PM
Jul 2018

I'm not an expert by any means, but I did want to share a few thoughts on the topic.

Concerning the question of whether or not suicide is a terrible sin, I was always taught (as a Catholic) that a mortal sin is defined as:

1. It has to be of a serious nature
2. The person knows that it is wrong
3. The person still decides to do it anyway

So (related to the issue of suicide) I found the following listed in the catechism:

Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide

We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

This seems to be consistent with what I was taught – of course my own person experience obviously does not negate the fact that others may have encountered priests (or other church officials) who have stated their belief that suicide is a mortal sin.

Now, as to the question as to whether or not the death of Jesus should be considered a suicide, truthfully, that is something that I’ve not considered before – so (again) thank you for providing the opportunity for me to examine this part of my faith!

First of all, I agree that there is a great deal of similarity between a suicide and someone who intentionally sacrifices their life – both are self-directed actions that lead to one’s own death.

But in the case of a sacrifice, isn’t death a byproduct of an action? In other words, my goal is not to die, but I am willing to die in order to achieve another goal (perhaps saving others’ lives)….but in the case of suicide, isn’t death the intended goal? So if Jesus' goal was to die, then I would agree that it was a suicide - but if his death was a means to achieve his goal (rather than his goal), then I would consider his death to be a sacrifice, and not a suicide.

I imagine that we will disagree on this topic, but I appreciate the opportunity to discuss this with you.

Wishing you well and peace.

Tim

Voltaire2

(12,626 posts)
40. Suicides may be trying to teach people a lesson too.
Wed Jul 18, 2018, 04:14 PM
Jul 2018

Isn’t that one of the standard suicidal motivations? “I’ll show them. They’ll be sorry when I’m gone.”

Pendrench

(1,355 posts)
42. Hi Voltaire2 - thank you for responding to my post.
Wed Jul 18, 2018, 10:19 PM
Jul 2018

That is a very interesting point - I also imagine that some individuals may commit suicide because they see themselves as being a burden to others, so their goal may be to "relieve" others of that burden.

I'm not well versed in the motivations related to suicide, so I greatly appreciate your perspective and information...it definitely give me something to consider.

Thank you again.

Wishing you well and peace -

Tim

Pendrench

(1,355 posts)
43. Hi Voltaire2 - I've been thinking of your post (thank you, again!) and I had a few more thoughts
Thu Jul 19, 2018, 03:58 AM
Jul 2018

that I thought I might share.

Granted, I'm still contemplating your question, so these thoughts are still in flux, but it seems to me a distinction between a suicide and a sacrifice may be that a suicide implies an intent to die for a cause, and a sacrifice implies a willingness to die for a cause.

For example, if I am on a sinking ship, and I give up my seat in a lifeboat for someone else, I would consider that to be a sacrifice, not a suicide. Or, during a battle if a soldier jumps on a grenade to save other soldiers, I would consider that a sacrifice rather than a suicide.

So to go back to edhopper's original question as to whether or not Jesus' death was a suicide - in my opinion (and, full disclosure, I am a practicing Catholic, so I fully realized that my opinion reflects that upbringing, and therefore should be seen through that prism) I would consider it to be a sacrifice, due to the fact (if one is to believe the account of the Agony in the Garden) Jesus was willing to die for a cause, but did not necessarily want to:

Father, if you be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but yours, be done.

Anyway, those are just a few more thoughts that I had - again, I appreciate the opportunity to discuss this with you (an others) as it gives me a chance to examine my own faith and beliefs.

Wishing you well and peace.

Tim

Voltaire2

(12,626 posts)
44. ok but the Jesus story had him with intent and
Thu Jul 19, 2018, 05:25 AM
Jul 2018

willingness.

Also your distinctinction is dubious. In both examples it is clear that death is the likely outcome. For the grenade jumper it is nearly certain. We also have suicide survivors, rather frequently in fact, so certainty is not a requirement there either.

And to further muddy things the standard Jesus myth has him as one of the aspects of an omniscient deity. He knows he ends up getting executed for his actions. He also knows he ‘un-dies’ a few days later. As noted elsewhere in this thread, arguably there is no real sacrifice (and no suicide).

Pendrench

(1,355 posts)
45. Hi Voltaire2 - thank you again for your response.
Thu Jul 19, 2018, 10:50 AM
Jul 2018

Last edited Thu Jul 19, 2018, 01:27 PM - Edit history (1)

I don't know if this will clarify my thoughts or not, but I see suicide as the taking of one's life, and a sacrifice as the giving of one's life.

Perhaps that is just a distinction without a difference, but maybe I can do a better job of explaining than I previously did.

For example, I imagine that there are numerous reasons why individuals commit suicide, but at the core I would think that this is a means to escape pain (either mental or physical) - so the action is self-focused/motivated. In other words, I choose to end my life (take my life) in order to end my pain.

On the other hand, when one sacrifices their life (gives their life) the action is other-focused/motivated. In other words, even though I will (more than likely) die by jumping on a grenade, I will do so that others will not die.

I'm not sure if that is a good answer or not, I definitely plan on giving this topic much more thought.

As to the other point that you (and others) mentioned - does the fact that Jesus knew he would die and rise again negate (or at least diminish) his sacrifice/suicide?

As a Catholic, we believe that Jesus was "true God and true man", which means that in his physical form he was like us in all things except sin. So not only would that mean that Jesus felt the physical pain of his torture and crucifixion, he also felt the mental anguish, including doubt.

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

So I believe that since the suffering was real, so was his sacrifice.

But even more important than his sacrifice (according to my faith) is the fulfillment of his promise, that even though he would suffer and die (even if it was just for a few days), he would rise again. That to us is the hope - that new life can spring from suffering.

So for those of us who say that we are believers, we need to provide that "new life" for those who are suffering.

We need to feed the hungry.
We need to give drink to those who thirst.
We need to visit those who are sick and in jail.
We need to clothe the naked.
We need to love our neighbors as ourselves.

Naturally, these are just my thoughts and opinions, I imagine that we will not agree on this topic, but I do appreciate the opportunity to discuss this with you.

Wishing you well and peace -

Tim

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