When Prophets Come Alive

[guillaumeb]

From the article:

One of the lessons that resonated with me was the idea that we can relate to prophets and saints like Muhammad, Jesus, Mary, Buddha or Rumi not merely as historical figures, but as sacred personalities who belong to all humanity, rather than a particular religion, ideology or nationality. They represent transcendent qualities accessible through the collective human consciousness...…

and

Our body is like Mary.
Each of us has a Jesus inside.
If a pain and yearning shows up inside us,
the Jesus of our soul is born.
If there is no pain, no yearning,
the Jesus of our soul will return to its origin from
the same secret passageway he came from…
If there is no pain, no yearning,
we will remain deprived
not benefiting from that Jesus of the soul.

To read more:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/livingtradition/2018/07/when-prophets-come-alive/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Muslim&utm_content=49

"transcendent qualities accessible through the collective human consciousness...…"

Add that to Rumi's idea that each of us has a Jesus inside, or, as the Americans Friends might express it, each of us has a spark of the divine.

[MineralMan]

1. When That Happens, Run! It's the Zombie Apocalypse!

[trotsky]

2. "They represent transcendent qualities accessible through the collective human consciousness"

Completely unsupported and completely unsupportable claim.

"each of us has a spark of the divine"

Same.

[MineralMan]

5. You noticed that, too? Odd, isn't it.

I have genes from my mother and my father. If there's a spark of anything, it originates there.

Nothing divine involved. Just genetics.

I even know the date the spark was struck. It was Halloween night, 1944. I know that because my parents were together that day, and not for a couple of weeks before. the next day, my father and his crew flew a B-17 to Europe. Halloween was the only possibility, given my birth date.

It must have been a strong spark, too, because here I am still.

[guillaumeb]

9. "Nothing divine involved. Just genetics. "

Unsupportable and unprovable opinion.

[MineralMan]

11. No. The genetics are fully supported by

evidence. No such support exists for a "divine spark." No evidence at all. There is, however, a genetic trail that goes back a couple of million years to our hominid relatives.

I have evidence. You have old myths.

[Lordquinton]

12. You can't rule out unicorns either

What do you mean you'd have a horn? The absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence!

[MineralMan]

36. Well, there are many pictures of unicorns.

No photographs, though. I need photographs.

[guillaumeb]

13. You have a belief. eom

[MineralMan]

34. I believe you're looking in your mirror again.

[Docreed2003]

28. See post 27

....love you MM. Hope I have your level insight and knowledge one day. While you may not appreciate it, your contributions here are greatly appreciated, even without that "divine" spark!

[MineralMan]

35. You're far too kind! Thanks.

[Docreed2003]

27. Please prove there was something "divine" involved in the creation of MM!

While I would suggest he is a "saint" on DU, please show proof of a divine conception!

[guillaumeb]

43. A saint? An interesting assertion.

[marylandblue]

48. Surely you are familiar with metaphor?

[guillaumeb]

50. I am, but metaphor divorced from substance is merely word play.

But if the poster is familiar with some reason that another should be termed a saint, let that poster provide some explanation.

[Act_of_Reparation]

3. Collective human consciousness, huh?

Funny that this collective consciousness was completely absent from all texts, sources, and classroom materials while I was working on my psych degree. I guess my education's outdated.

[Voltaire2]

4. I wonder where this collective consciousness exists?

But there was old Karl Jung, he latched onto CC as part of his version of psychology.

Do we have some sort of antenna that sucks in the CC?

[Act_of_Reparation]

40. Not to nitpick, but Jung's schtick was collective unconscious...

...whatever Billy's talking about now is news to me.

Of course, whether these collective memories are available for conscious recall fucking with the currents flowing through the unconscious mind doesn't make a difference. The problem of where such shared experience resides remains the same.

Incidentally, the answer is nowhere. It resides nowhere. Because it doesn't exist.

[Voltaire2]

56. Right. Unconscious. Woo.

[MineralMan]

6. Yabbut, the Bibble transcends all such texts, sources, and classroom materials.

Yeah...that's the ticket...

[Act_of_Reparation]

42. That's the ticket.

You'd have to be personally infallible to find modern medicine a more authoritative resource on human pyschology than an anonymous, unqualified internet commentator. And you can't be confident in anything you believe unless you can prove it geometrically.

Them's the rules, MM.

[guillaumeb]

10. Your education may not be outdated,

but unless you claim to be infallible, this is merely your personal opinion.

[Act_of_Reparation]

41. Oh, I see. The old proving a negative canard.

How original.

[MineralMan]

7. Do you just believe everything you read?

Do you know Daliah Merzaban? Is that someone you trust? If so, please explain why you put your trust in that person.

When will you start posting your own ideas, in your own words? Why should we pay attention to your random copy and paste posts from here and there?

Some members of this group think hard and post conclusions they have drawn from a lifetime of reading and thinking. You seem to just post whatever appeals to you from just about anyone.

Please think longer, and post what you have considered and weighed. Speak for yourself, rather than just parroting others.

Thanks. That would be great!

[guillaumeb]

8. One assumes that you consider yourself to be in this group

that "think hard" and post conclusions. But your thinking about theism is simply your own, unsupported, and totally unsupportable ideas that are based on your belief that your hard thinking has lead you to some truth.

As to your question about the author, and trust, explain to me why I should trust anything that you say.

And, as is your consistent pattern, you attempt to put down those who disagree with you. I understand that need, and what motivates it. Do you?

[Lordquinton]

14. Three paragraphs

When you could have just said

"no"

[guillaumeb]

15. I was responding in that way to make a point.

But thank you for the editorial advice.

[Lordquinton]

16. What point?

That you are still refusing to engage in ay sort of dialogue?

[guillaumeb]

17. Do you consider #7 to be dialogue? eom

[Lordquinton]

18. It takes two to have a dialogue

You have been the missing number in this group for as long as you've been here.

[guillaumeb]

19. Do you consider #7 to be dialogue was the question.

You can answer, or evade.

[Lordquinton]

20. It would be if you supplied the reciprocal conversation

BTW, never talk to me about evening questions. Especially in a subthread you started in evading a question.

[guillaumeb]

21. This is actually my post,

in which a number of non-theists decided to avoid the topic, and one decided to engage in personal attack and name calling. So, in that spirit, I will take you avoidance as evidence that #7 is the opposite of dialogue. And typical of 11th Commandment behavior.

And yes, there is the 11th Commandment reference that a few of you dislike, but if it were not so obviously correct, and so often seen, I would not use it so often.

[Lordquinton]

25. So you won't engage in dialogue?

Everyone knows that when you run to the commandment nonsense you've got nothing, do you really think anyone buys it? (Protip: they don't)

[guillaumeb]

26. Explain how #7 is dialogue, and not personal attack.

Or continue trying to change the subject.

[Lordquinton]

29. Nope, your turn

Why do you refuse to engage in dialogue? MM is trying to get anything out of you, because you beligerantly refuse to engage, why do you act that way? Heck one time it put you in a very uncomfortable position of defending some nasty characters, I can provide a link of others want.

[Docreed2003]

30. #7 is dialogue asking for more details on your own opinions, not of those you quote

While you and MM may have back and forths, the post itself is not an attack...he is asking you to expound on your post and explain what you, personally, believe.

[Major Nikon]

31. What name where you called?

I’ve asked you this before when you’ve made previous half-fast name calling accusations and you refused to answer as is almost always the case with you, yet now you want to try and claim others are refusing dialog.

[Permanut]

22. I understand your need to claim that statements by others are unsupported.

[guillaumeb]

23. Thank you for being so understanding.

Do you understand the motivations of the poster of #7?

[Permanut]

24. I can't speak for the motivations of poster #7, or any other poster.

In the case of poster #7, he makes it clear from the get-go that his posts are his opinions. That is aside, of course, from quoted material.

[Major Nikon]

32. Gil can and does

He makes up his own rules for this group and whines incessantly when he decides they have been violated. He claims to have all sort of statistics on the regular posters here and regularly uses them to stalk other posters, all the while claiming he is the true victim. Whenever you call BS on his antics, he will claim you attacked him and called him names despite having no evidence for it. The first few times it’s kinda funny, then it becomes banal.

[Mariana]

37. He also claims to receive numerous personal messages

from legions of unnamed admirers, asking him to continue doing what he is doing, and praising his efforts in this group. His main purpose for posting in this group may be to elicit more applause from his fan club.

[Major Nikon]

38. Sometimes it's interesting to note the extent some will go to in order to impress imaginary friends

[gtar100]

33. The Fall of Man (sic) is a story of our turning away from that divinity.

And remembrance of that divinity, our awakening. Not easy; so many distractions, deceptions, deceit, and dishonesty. So much has been obscured by the pursuit of a single orthodoxy (one shoe fits all). All these symbols (Mary, Jesus, Allah, Buddha, Shanti, Krishna...) are used by organized religions with the intent of keeping some form of priesthood in between people and the divine. As if we need them for that! Rumi makes it a very personal thing; how could it be otherwise even as our minds journey in the collective consciousness of humanity.

“The whole idea is that you’ve got to bring out again that which you went to recover, the unrealized, unutilized potential in yourself. The whole point of this journey is the reintroduction of this potential into the world…It goes without saying, this is very difficult. Bringing the boon back can be even more difficult than going down into your own depths in the first place.” (Pathways to Bliss, Joseph Campbell)

[guillaumeb]

44. An excellent observation about Rumi.

I agree that we must each experience the divine.

[marylandblue]

39. Is there a difference between getting your heroes from religion

and getting them from classic literature or comic books?

[guillaumeb]

45. What is a hero? eom

[Act_of_Reparation]

46. A person who stops trying to change the subject and answers the question.

[marylandblue]

47. I don't know, someone like Jesus maybe?

[guillaumeb]

49. But the word hero is used to refer to cartoon characters,

and animals who rescue others, and so it seems to have lost much of what it meant.

I would say that Jesus is a religious figure. Were His actions heroic, or were they dictated by His mission?

[marylandblue]

51. You are too focused on the word choice

It appears to me that the OP article is treating prophets as personal heroes[or spiritual guide, imaginary friend, Jungian archetype, historical examplar of life well lived etc.] It seems to me you can do the same with any figure of history or literature, religious or not.

[guillaumeb]

52. The post also refers to the possibility of anyone becoming a prophet or saint.

And that, I believe, is the entire point of it. That we can all become prophets by recognizing the divine within us all.

[marylandblue]

53. If we can become Muhammed, we can also become Batman eom

[guillaumeb]

54. One is an historical figure,

the other is a literary creation. Unless by Batman you mean a metaphor for anyone who fights for justice. But the poster never suggests that anyone can become Jesus or Mohammed. The poster suggests that we can become like them.

[marylandblue]

55. If we can become Moses (who may never have existed)

we can become Winston Churchill, who did exist. My point remains. The process described in the aricle is not limited to religious figures.

[guillaumeb]

58. We disagree.

There is a difference between becoming and becoming like.

[marylandblue]

60. you are quibbling over simile vs metaphor, becoming like is fine with me too

My point is that religious figures are not unique in regards to the points made by the article.

[guillaumeb]

62. Not quibbling.

There is a difference. Religious figures are unique in many aspects, or they would not be so unusual.

[marylandblue]

63. In what ways are they unique?

[guillaumeb]

64. Being unique, each is unique in a different way.

Jesus preached and lived a message.

[marylandblue]

65. Churchill also preached and lived a message

And every organism that reproduces sexually is unique.

[guillaumeb]

66. The message of Jesus has lasted for 2000 years. eom

[marylandblue]

67. So what? Socrates also preached and lived a message.

And it has lasted even longer than Jesus.

[Lordquinton]

69. This exchange makes you a hero in my books

Getting through the tedium of having every word you say defined out of the argument.

[marylandblue]

70. Thanks. Maybe I should start my own religion?

I'll call it Bluism, our prophet will be Winston Churchill and the first commandment will be "Never, never, never, never give in."

[Voltaire2]

57. It would be easier to become Batman.

It appears to be nearly impossible to become an historic person from the past. Batman is a fictional character with no supernatural powers, he’s just got great gadgets and lots of money. Becoming Batman seems entirely possible.

[guillaumeb]

59. The Adam West Batman,

or another version?

[Voltaire2]

61. That would be too many levels of indirection

You would become a pretend Batman.

[Mariana]

68. Here you go, Gil.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/hero