And here's another example of vicious hypocrisy:

[MineralMan]

https://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2018/08/jersey_city_pastor_charged_with_molesting_10-year-.html

Jersey City pastor charged with molesting 10-year-old girl and relative
A Jersey City church pastor has been charged with sexually assaulting a 10-year-old girl church member and fondling a relative -- and a source said the pastor has threatened at least one other victim with deportation if she told anyone.

Orlando Martinez-Chavez, 47, was charged on July 27 and he was arrested on July 30, according to a criminal complaint. The former spiritual leader of the Iglesia Pentecostal Lirio de los Valles church on Summit Avenue is being detained through his prosecution.

He faces charges of sexual assault, endangering the welfare of a child, and criminal sexual contact.

Martinez-Chavez's troubles started a month earlier, according to the source, who requested anonymity for fear of retribution. Martinez-Chavez was removed from his position on June 26 after he was accused of sending graphic pictures and videos to a 32-year-old woman who attended the church, the source said.

Yet another "man of God" abusing the trust of innocent children. Heinous!

[Fullduplexxx]

1. Yes it is heinous there are bad people in every profession. But he is no man of god

He may wear the cloth but even satan can quote scripture if it serves his purpose

[MineralMan]

2. It is the CLAIM of being a "man of God" that is

the source of trust people place in men like that. I don't believe in any deities, so I know no "men of God," but many claim to be such and hold themselves up as examples.

That is my objection. That is the reason for my anger at such people. They abuse their positions of trust. Often it is because they have people's trust that they are able to commit their vile crimes.

[Voltaire2]

3. So people who do bad things can't be religious?

[Major Nikon]

5. Evidently they can be if they are faking it

It's really no different than any other nefarious act committed by someone claiming to have faith. Obviously if their faith were genuine they never would have done such a thing.

[Mariana]

7. They don't have to be faking it.

They aren't mutually exclusive. One can have genuine religious faith and be a sexual predator of children at the same time.

[Major Nikon]

8. The question is whether or not they are a "true" (Christian or whatever) for doing so

Some would have you believe not.

[Mariana]

9. Yeah, there's this incredibly bigoted idea out there

that only non-Christians ever do horrible things.

[MineralMan]

4. Whatabout?....

Feh!

[marylandblue]

6. Why is he not a man of God?

The Bible doesn't even prohibit it. It tells us what to do with homosexuals and witches, but not a word on pederasts.

[Major Nikon]

10. Pederasty was well tolerated, if not expected during the time of Jesus

It was basically the price of admission for education and pretty much the only type of education available at that time was religious education. Assuming Jesus received religious education, and it seems evident he did, the chances are quite high this was involved. One likely suspect was John the Baptist who spent his time washing nude young boys in the Jordan river.

[marylandblue]

11. That may have been true in the Greek tradition

but is there any evidence of this in the Jewish tradition? And it's not quite true that religious education was the only option. There were also Greek teachers who were more secular.

[Major Nikon]

12. The Greeks heavily influenced the Romans and the Jews

The Romans ruled the Jews who were heavily influenced by the Greeks and Romans. Some of the disciples undoubtedly spoke Greek and some of the gospels were originally authored in Greek. Jewish law did not forbid homosexuality, only certain homosexual acts and sexual relationships with boys was not forbidden by Jewish or Greek law for a good reason. It was quite common. Pederasty was the most common form of same sex relationships.

[marylandblue]

13. But there is no actual evidence?

Jewish law at that time wasn't just contained in the Bible, but in various interpretations some of which opposed Greek influence and were more explicitly against homosexuality than the Bible.

You can find Greek and Roman writings extolling the virtues of sexual relations with young boys, but are there any Jewish writings?

[Major Nikon]

15. The evidence is in what was forbidden

The Jews were living among the Greeks and Romans, and naturally would have adopted the same practices. Some of those acts were forbidden by Jewish laws, notably male-male anal sex. The Talmud has all sorts of restrictions on specific sex acts with children which specify certain ages depending on gender. Notably missing from these restrictions is the absence of a restriction on pederasty so long as it didn't involve anal sex.

[marylandblue]

28. Do you have a specific citation in the Talmud for this?

[Major Nikon]

32. I can't cite something that isn't there

The restrictions in the Talmud are all based on coitus between adults and children or male-male anal sex. Ages of 3 and 9 are mentioned, but the restrictions there are debatable. It's fair to say that if there's Rabbinic regulations regarding sex with children, it was going on often enough that rules were needed.

[marylandblue]

44. Interpreting actual practice out of the Talmud is difficult

There are a lot of theoretical discussions in there about things that weren't possible, were unlikely to occur, or had not been done for centuries. In this case, you are using a specific lack of mention of a certain practice, to assume that it must have been a routine educational practice 500 years earlier. It's really a stretch.

[Major Nikon]

45. I didn't assume it happened

I said the chances are quite high if Jesus received a formal education. There’s no question it was a routine and well accepted educational practice in that area at that time. If the Jews had a problem with it, it would undoubtedly been mentioned in the Talmud.

[marylandblue]

47. Like I said no evidence Jews practiced it

If it was an accepted practice, more likely they would have said so, because they do describe educational practice in some detail. They do have prohibitions and discouragments against doing anything the Greeks do. The Jews also had a prohibition against spilling seed "in vain," that is, not putting it inside a woman.

The Essenes were probably celibate, but clearly could read, so they wouldn't have done any kind of sex in exchange for education. John the Baptist was likely an Essene. Rabbis were generally expected to be married men. The Greeks and Romans enouraged homosexual sex for married men, but the Jews did not permit any type of sex outside marriage.

So.again, you have a slender reed that plays up Greek influences on Jewish culture, and plays.down clear.Jewish attempts to resist such influence.

[Major Nikon]

62. The evidence is the same as you have for JTB being celibate

[Act_of_Reparation]

51. The Sybelline Oracles actually attest the Hebrews did not practice pederasty.

Make of that what you will.

I think it is also important to remember, however, that while the Israelites might not have had an institutionalized boy-fucking tradition, they sure as shit had an institutionalized girl-fucking tradition that, when you really think about, isn't really any better. And yet, our dear and fluffy lord, despite having many an opportunity to speak out against the wanton fucking of pubescent girls by adult men, remained curiously silent on the issue.

Probably because he had more important things to talk about. Like cursing a fig tree for not bearing fruit out of season.

[Major Nikon]

64. The movement to end the practice came well after Christ

There were also lots of things the Talmud restricted or commanded that were routinely ignored by the time of Christ. Hellenistic Jews were changing as a result of Greek and Roman influences. Christ and by extension Christianity are a direct reflection of this.

There’s no record of Christ saying one word about any type of homosexual relationship or act. Paul does have a bit to say about homosexual acts, but says nothing about pederasty which is interesting as the Greek language that Paul spoke most certainly had a word for it.

[Act_of_Reparation]

72. Funny isn't it? There are a lot of things Christ didn't think to address.

Could have condemned slavery. But didn't.

Could have condemned misogyny. But didn't.

Could have told people to brush their teeth. But didn't.

Could have told people to wash their hands after taking a shit. But didn't.

No, instead he saw fit to talk in riddles about the really important stuff... like the eternal torment awaiting your tender ass in hell should you dare reject him.

[Major Nikon]

75. It's important to remember like all religious hustlers, Christ was running a for profit business

His interest was in telling stories that would generate the most revenue, but keep himself from being turned into a human lawn ornament. In the end he got that balance out of whack. The result was other religious hustlers turned him into a martyr and eventually a god so they could run their own confidence games. Eventually government got involved due to the obvious benefit organized religion has on controlling the unwashed masses.

[Fullduplexxx]

17. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a m

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Matthew 18.6

[edhopper]

18. Jesus was talking about following him like a child

not about child abuse. You quoted out of context.

Mathew 18: At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2 He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.
Causing to Stumble

6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come! 8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

[Fullduplexxx]

20. Yes he is doing both ... are you suggesting that like a child doesnt include a child

It says you have to become like children AND if anyone ....

[edhopper]

22. I am not saying Jesus would not condemn child abuse

I was saying your quote was misleading.

Of course we have the largest Church in the world that allowed an epidemic of child abuse. So I wouldn't say true Christians are immune from committing such things.

[Fullduplexxx]

23. I dont see how it is misleading it is a reference to children

I know it says that you have to become like children but would that include children who are already children

[Mariana]

31. If that's the correct interpretation

then he's only including children who are Christians with the childlike Christian adults.

"If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."

Does this mean non-Christian children are fair game?

[Major Nikon]

69. OK, let's go that route and assume Jesus is talking about child rape

Theres no real good reason we can make such assumptions since the bible condones selling children into sexual slavery and children were regarded as property with no restrictions on child rape, but for the sake of argument let’s assume this is correct. So what does Jesus say to do about such alleged sins? The answer can be found just a few verses later when Jesus commands the matter to be handled within the church.

Just so you know you are far from the first who came up with this revelation. Kinda funny how this chapter must be interpreted as an edict against child molestation, but we must ignore that Jesus said to keep everything on the down low.

[marylandblue]

19. Who decides what "offends" a child?

[Fullduplexxx]

21. Idk maybe the child maybe God

[marylandblue]

27. Adults decide what is best for a child, not the child

If God thought you should not have sex with a child below the age of consent, he does not seem to have thought worthy of mention. He did have a lot to say about what two consenting adults could not do.

[Fullduplexxx]

37. Offends becomes what's best ?

[marylandblue]

39. Offends means almost anything, it is not a specific prohibition

And child molesters have often used the excuse that the kid wanted, and even gotten children to say that they want it.

[Fullduplexxx]

40. I agree but the answer i gave was an answer to this

"Who decides what "offends" a child?".... not who decides what's best

[marylandblue]

42. My point is that child molestion is not prohibited by the Bible

So by Biblical standards, there is nothing ungodly about it.

[Bretton Garcia]

70. Mary was probably 13 to 16 when she got together with Joseph.

[trotsky]

16. How do you know?

Do you think bad people can only be atheists?

That's kind of bigoted. Hopefully you can clarify.

[Fullduplexxx]

24. No . Hopefully that clarifies it for you

[trotsky]

25. So when you declared this criminal was "no man of god,"

on what information did you base that claim?

[Fullduplexxx]

26. When i declared him no man of god i didnt declare him an atheist

[trotsky]

30. So basically anyone who commits a bad act is "no man of god" then, right?

What exactly does that mean? If you are a "man of god" then you are perfect?

[Fullduplexxx]

33. I didnt say that. no man of god is in reference to that one pedophile who

I was told claimed to be a man of god and in that one instance But to answer your questions 1 i dont know 2 idont know and 3 i would assume no .

[trotsky]

34. Why can't a pedophile be "a man of god"?

You still haven't explained.

You admit here that one doesn't have to be perfect to be "a man of god," so what's the cutoff?

[Fullduplexxx]

35. What do you take man of god to mean

[trotsky]

36. That's what I'm trying to get you to answer!

I wish you would.

[Fullduplexxx]

38. Well maybe you can ask mineral man he is the one who called this pedophile a man of god

And let me know what he says

[Mariana]

41. And you said he isn't one.

You seemed pretty confident in your declaration that Rev. Martinez-Chavez is no man of god. So, how do you, Fullduplexx, discern who is a man of god and who isn't a man of god?

[Fullduplexxx]

43. Do you think you can rape a child and still call yourself godly?

[Mariana]

46. I have no idea, that's why I asked you.

How do you discern who is a man of god, and who isn't one?

[trotsky]

49. It's always fun when they know full well why they said what they did,

but they realize they can't say so (in mixed company at least).

[Fullduplexxx]

58. How do you discern ...i dont know .... by their actions i guess

But you do know what they do behind closed door but i think pedophilia would do it why dont you . Surely you must know the damage/trama it does to them dont you ? . i cant believe you honestly dont know .

[Voltaire2]

60. So again you are claiming that only those

who do not believe in your god’s can do bad things.

[Fullduplexxx]

61. A lot of people on the right claim a belief in god and they still do some awful things

[Voltaire2]

63. I'm glad we agree that "men of god" can do

horrible things.

[Mariana]

65. I do know the damage and trauma it causes.

That doesn't answer my question, though.

[Act_of_Reparation]

52. Well, this argumentative nosedive sure has been entertaining.

But the answer is 'yes'. Because you can believe in God and still be a terrible fucking person. Difficult to comprehend, I know, but it's true.

[Fullduplexxx]

57. If you knew the answer why badger me about it . The right is full of the people you just

described sining praises on sunday and monday night theyre carrying torches down the streets of charlotte

[Major Nikon]

67. Probably because we have heard this before

Organized religion gets all the credit when someone who speaks for religion does something good. Then when someone who speaks for religion does something bad, organized religion can’t possibly be blamed. The no true scottsman fallacy facilitates what Orwell described as doublethink.

[Act_of_Reparation]

74. Because your irksome response gives creedence to negative stereotypes of atheists.

Atheists like me. And I'd prefer it if you'd stop doing that shit.

[Fullduplexxx]

81. My apologies to you i certainly didnt mean to give you that impression

I have ZERO problems with atheists or atheism or anyother religion for that matter.

[trotsky]

48. If that's how you need to back out, fine.

I understand these are very difficult questions for believers to face honestly, let alone answer.

[Fullduplexxx]

56. Im not in a postion from which to back out

A poster called this pedophile a man of god i said he was no man of god and you came after me instead of the poster who called him such

[Mariana]

66. You still haven't explained why

you don't think he can be a man of god. Have you read the Bible? There are plenty of stories about men of god who did terrible things to children.

[trotsky]

77. Yet that's what you're doing.

You made an assertion, and you refuse to support it.

You could just say that you were wrong.

[MineralMan]

50. You rang? You can ask me things directly.

I do not decide who is and who is not a "man of god." See, I don't believe there are entities such as that in the first place. The man called himself a "man of god," by taking on the role of a pastor or minister. Who am I to argue with him?

Perhaps the "god" of which he is a man thinks sexual abuse of children is just fine. Can you define what a "man of god" actually is? I doubt it, since you'd first have to define what a "god" is.

People apply their own labels to themselves. Since I think all deities are imaginary figures, he's welcome to call himself whatever he wants. There are no "gods," actually, by my definition.

In the future, if you want me to answer, it's best to reply to one of my posts. That way, I'll be sure to see it.

[Fullduplexxx]

55. No sir i didnt. i refered someone to you who had a question about

Something you said and was trying to get me to answer it
. I would respond to you directly as i have in the past

[Mariana]

73. That is not true.

No one asked you to explain MineralMan's post. You were asked about your own declarative statement in post #1 on this thread. You said, "he is no man of god". You were asked how you know that.

[Fullduplexxx]

79. He didnt ask me to explain his post He asked me to explain what "man of god meant".

Man of god was not my decription of him and therefore i refered him to the poster who coined the term

i posted "What do you take man of god to mean"

He replied That's what I'm trying to get you to answer!

[MineralMan]

82. If a person puts on a clerical collar and stands in front

of a congregation, that person represents him or herself as a "man of god." If that person is part of a religious organization, that organization considers that person to be a "man of god." Who am I to deny that representation?

[Bretton Garcia]

71. God/the Holy Spirit had sex with Mary when she was probably 13 to 16.

And they weren't married, exactly.

So many pastors probably rationalize it.

So, many can use the Bible to justify all that.

Are they " real" Christians? Who can say. They often ARE quoting the Bible.

Priests also used the "unless you eat my flesh" quote, too, it seems, as a pickup line.

Loyal Jews often resisted such practices. But many Jews compromised with, collaborated with, helper d, Greeks and Romans. Like Philo, maybe Herod, and Josephus. Even, in the Bible, Jesus.

[trotsky]

76. Isn't that exactly how certain Christians defended Roy Moore?

Why yes, it is.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/roy-moore-paedophilia-allegations-joseph-mary-bible-defence-jim-ziegler-alabama-republicans-senate-a8047246.html

[Major Nikon]

80. The bible has been used to defend any human atrocity you can name

Rape, murder, slavery, torture, and child molestation are all officially sanctioned if not encouraged and godly. It comes in handy for the evil in all sorts of situations. Meanwhile there's no shortage of apologists who will claim it's all metaphorical only when such things become awkward and say those who use it for nefarious purposes weren't "real Christians" anyway.

[Permanut]

14. These acts are indeed heinous..

Religious leaders represent themselves to be moral authorities. When they prey on others, especially on young people, they commit a particularly monstrous form of evil.

[MineralMan]

29. Exactly.

[lunasun]

53. 8/13- one of the biggest mega churches in the Illinois area. first a worker then the founder !!

https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/willow-creek-church-paid-3-million-sex-assault-victims-volunteer-rob-sobczak-bill-hybels/


https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2018/08/13/willow-creek-church-settles-two-sexual-abuse-lawsuits-3-million/

[MineralMan]

54. Crap! There's a new one every day in Google News.

I just post about one a week here.

[Fullduplexxx]

59. And here's another just posted

Catholic Church of PA hid sex abuse by priests for over 70yrs in 6 of 7 PA diocese

70 fkg years

[Major Nikon]

68. It's reasonable to assume it's been going on far longer

And not just the RCC.

[MineralMan]

78. Yes. We'll be hearing a lot about that situation.

The RCC has much to answer for, but no good answers to offer. The truth is that the church allowed such abuse to go on for decades and did nothing about it but move the offenders around to offend elsewhere. That has been going on for hundreds of years, I have no doubt. In my opinion, the collective stories should bring that church down, through the utter disgust and betrayal of its members.