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Tue Aug 28, 2018, 02:10 PM

Why it's so hard to hold priests accountable for sex abuse

From the article:

Escaping accountability
The 1983 revision put forward by Pope John Paul II to the entire code made it impossible for bishops to dismiss priests. Authority for doing so became centralized in the Vatican.....


The 1983 code also reduced the maximum time within which proceedings could be initiated against priests having sex with a child to five years.
With victims often, understandably, not coming forward for years, that meant many priests escaped internal punishment by the Vatican.
Canonical trials also require the cooperation of the victim as a witness and are another obstacle to holding priests accountable. The code has encouraged the very inaction by bishops that the pope condemns.....

Since 2001, in a further centralizing move, the Vatican has required that bishops send all cases of substantiated allegations of child sex abuse to its Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is located at the Vatican, and is usually headed by a powerful Cardinal.


To read more of a somewhat long article:

https://religionnews.com/2018/08/27/why-its-so-hard-to-hold-priests-accountable-for-sex-abuse/

Centralizing of power and authority seems to be the key issue, as well as a refusal to mandate cooperation with civil authorities.

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Arrow 36 replies Author Time Post
Reply Why it's so hard to hold priests accountable for sex abuse (Original post)
guillaumeb Aug 2018 OP
mr_lebowski Aug 2018 #1
guillaumeb Aug 2018 #2
mr_lebowski Aug 2018 #3
guillaumeb Aug 2018 #7
Permanut Aug 2018 #19
guillaumeb Aug 2018 #21
MineralMan Aug 2018 #4
guillaumeb Aug 2018 #8
trotsky Aug 2018 #15
trotsky Aug 2018 #5
MineralMan Aug 2018 #6
guillaumeb Aug 2018 #9
trotsky Aug 2018 #14
guillaumeb Aug 2018 #20
trotsky Aug 2018 #22
guillaumeb Aug 2018 #23
trotsky Aug 2018 #24
guillaumeb Aug 2018 #25
trotsky Aug 2018 #26
guillaumeb Aug 2018 #27
trotsky Aug 2018 #28
guillaumeb Aug 2018 #29
trotsky Aug 2018 #30
guillaumeb Aug 2018 #31
trotsky Aug 2018 #32
guillaumeb Aug 2018 #33
trotsky Aug 2018 #34
guillaumeb Aug 2018 #35
trotsky Sep 2018 #36
Lordquinton Aug 2018 #10
Lordquinton Aug 2018 #11
Voltaire2 Aug 2018 #12
NeoGreen Aug 2018 #13
Major Nikon Aug 2018 #16
NeoGreen Aug 2018 #17
Major Nikon Aug 2018 #18

Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Tue Aug 28, 2018, 02:12 PM

1. Yeah, well the cops don't have to honor any of that bullshit ... just sayin'

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Response to mr_lebowski (Reply #1)

Tue Aug 28, 2018, 02:13 PM

2. No, but the police must be aware that a crime was committed. eom

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #2)

Tue Aug 28, 2018, 02:16 PM

3. Indeed, which is why all these 'procedures' are f'ing BS, pardon my language ...

The directive should be 'immediately suspend suspect from all duties, and notify proper authorities'.

Period.

This isn't the freaking 14th Century in Europe FFS.

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Response to mr_lebowski (Reply #3)

Tue Aug 28, 2018, 04:45 PM

7. Agreed.

But group protection, even of members who violate the law, is something that seems to be seen in every group.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #7)

Wed Aug 29, 2018, 09:44 AM

19. I understand your need to argue that the RCC is like every other group..

It is not.

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Response to Permanut (Reply #19)

Wed Aug 29, 2018, 01:45 PM

21. Group behavior is the similarity.

My actual point.

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Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Tue Aug 28, 2018, 02:27 PM

4. Because priests are part of a closed cabal. That's why.

They are protected by the cabal. That's obvious from the current RCC child sex abuse scandal. The cabal is in charge, so it shoves all that aside, and that cabal has engineered protection from the civil authorities over a couple of millennia.

You knew that, I'll bet.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #4)

Tue Aug 28, 2018, 04:46 PM

8. I did know that,

and I posted the article to highlight the procedural hurdles that were created to protect the predators.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #8)

Wed Aug 29, 2018, 07:57 AM

15. Protect the predators from what, gil?

SECULAR LAW.

Because the church puts canon law above it.

That's their RELIGIOUS belief.

Now go back to closing your eyes and covering your ears and saying "LA LA LA LA" because you can't tolerate anyone pointing out the flaws of religion.

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Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Tue Aug 28, 2018, 02:37 PM

5. You want to know why it's so difficult with the RCC?

Simple.

They believe canon law is more important than secular law.

That's a religious belief, BTW.

https://www.economist.com/erasmus/2014/02/06/a-loose-canon

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Response to trotsky (Reply #5)

Tue Aug 28, 2018, 02:54 PM

6. No, I don't think he wants to know.

That seems obvious enough. The answer is painfully simple, but is not accepted. Lock 'em up!

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Response to trotsky (Reply #5)

Tue Aug 28, 2018, 04:47 PM

9. The article highlights the procedural barriers.

Ones created to protect predators.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #9)

Wed Aug 29, 2018, 07:34 AM

14. Because the church puts canon law above secular law.

You choose to look at everything but the root of the problem. I wonder why that is?

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Response to trotsky (Reply #14)

Wed Aug 29, 2018, 01:44 PM

20. I read the article.

And agree with it.

The problem is that predators exist everywhere, in every group and profession. And predators will prey on their victims. And often, other members of an organization will cover up the actions of the predators in their particular organization. An all too common human tendency.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #20)

Wed Aug 29, 2018, 01:47 PM

22. Yet here we are in the Religion group.

And you refuse to consider religion as a factor, despite it staring you right in the face.

Very telling.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #22)

Wed Aug 29, 2018, 01:49 PM

23. You missed my point entirely.

Religious groups are obviously groups. But the commonality is predation, which exists in every group.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #23)

Wed Aug 29, 2018, 01:55 PM

24. I totally understand your point.

You don't want to ever consider religion as a factor in bad behavior.

You reflexively throw out false equivalencies like "PATRIOTISM" and "EVERY GROUP HAS PROBLEMS", despite this group being the Religion group, where religion is the topic of discussion.

It makes you so angry that you lash out and hurl nasty accusations and insults, implying that people who disagree with you are part of a mindless "choir" or that anyone who voices a contrary opinion has an "agenda" and thus can be ignored.

All are quite familiar with your tactics now, gil, and it's why you struggle so mightily to be taken seriously.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #24)

Wed Aug 29, 2018, 02:02 PM

25. Again, you missed my point.

I include religious groups in my listing.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #25)

Wed Aug 29, 2018, 02:02 PM

26. But you don't think their religion is a factor.

That's MY point.

And you still have yet to disprove it.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #26)

Wed Aug 29, 2018, 02:07 PM

27. I think that religion is a circumstance,

in that predators are often found in religious organizations, but the main factor is that predators prey on others.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #27)

Wed Aug 29, 2018, 02:13 PM

28. It is a religious belief of the Catholic church that canon law takes precedence over secular law.

That you close your eyes and pretend that fact doesn't exist is a problem - not only for you, but for the Catholic church AND its insane number of victims.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #28)

Wed Aug 29, 2018, 02:17 PM

29. No, it is an organizational belief.

Render to Caesar...etc.., is what Jesus actually said.


And my posts about this situation, including, ironically, the one in which we are talking, refutes your assertion that I am ignoring it.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #29)

Wed Aug 29, 2018, 02:38 PM

30. The organization is a religion, gil.

Other organizations are bound by SECULAR law.

This church thinks it is bound by its RELIGIOUS law first and foremost.

That you are in denial about the reality of this situation is really pathetic.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #30)

Wed Aug 29, 2018, 04:12 PM

31. I understand your need to sustain your narrative about theism, and me.

But the actual post stands as a refutation of what you are saying.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #31)

Fri Aug 31, 2018, 07:36 AM

32. Well now I've heard everything.

In order to defend religion, you are now saying Catholicism isn't a religion.

My goodness.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #32)

Fri Aug 31, 2018, 01:28 PM

33. More misreading.

Amazing? Not at this point.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #33)

Fri Aug 31, 2018, 02:15 PM

34. Not when you refuse to actually defend what you say.

You have no game, gil.

Beyond pathetic.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #34)

Fri Aug 31, 2018, 07:53 PM

35. Is your game creating positions for others?

Because this is one of many such instances.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #35)

Tue Sep 4, 2018, 07:34 AM

36. No surprise, you refuse to defend what you say.

Your position is so pathetically weak, even you know it can't be defended, I guess.

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Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Tue Aug 28, 2018, 08:04 PM

10. Nothing that hasn't been discussed here

But thanks for bringing John Paul into the discussion. He's generally well liked so gets left out, but this info that he's actually responsible for the difficulty in bringing these rapists to Justice is important for everyone to know.

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Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Tue Aug 28, 2018, 08:09 PM

11. The Inquisition

It just hit me, that section of the Vatican sounded familiar because "Formerly known as the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition"

So they gave charge of protecting child rapists to the inquisitors.

And who was the Lord high Inquisitor for this time period?

Joseph Ratzinger (25 November 1981 – 2 April 2005, death of Pope John Paul II)

The entire institution is set up ro protect child rapists. This is not normal, this isn't something that happens everywhere.

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Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Wed Aug 29, 2018, 04:32 AM

12. Because the RCC is a criminal organization adept

at covering up it’s crimes and protecting it’s own.

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Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Wed Aug 29, 2018, 06:59 AM

13. Seven simple steps...

...


The grand jury also noted how the Church managed to cover all these crimes up as long as they did. Leaders, they said, followed a “playbook for concealing the truth” that consisted of seven steps:

Use euphemisms. (“Never say “rape”; say “inappropriate contact” or “boundary issues.”)

Don’t investigate with trained personnel. (Instead, let clergy members ask the victims “inadequate” questions before judging their own colleagues.)

Evaluate priests at church-run “treatment centers.”

Never say why a priest was removed. (Just say he’s on “sick leave” or something.)

Keep providing priests with living expenses regardless of the allegations.

Transfer the priests if his crime becomes public knowledge. (Send him to a place where “no one will know he is a child abuser.”)

Don’t tell the police. (Keep it “in house.”)


https://upload.democraticunderground.com/1218291412

It is astonishing that in the wake of the PA Grande Jury report, such a question, as posted in the OP, could be asked.



I wonder if it is premeditated willful ignorance, for a purpose. I wonder

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Response to NeoGreen (Reply #13)

Wed Aug 29, 2018, 08:03 AM

16. That's just the cover up part

It assumes the RCC knows about the child rape to begin with, which almost certainly happens just a fraction of the time. Priests are venerated as godly by their congregation and placed on a high pedestal. As such they have an inherited aspect of trust and infallibility. Every victim has to be thinking who is going to believe them over a priest? Many victims never reported the crimes to anyone and many more were summarily ignored as uncredible before anyone documented anything.

So the simplest answer is they got away with it because the entire RCC has a culture of child rape, and despite pope Frank's lip service, they have done virtually nothing to change that culture.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #16)

Wed Aug 29, 2018, 08:45 AM

17. Granted...

Last edited Wed Aug 29, 2018, 09:37 AM - Edit history (1)

...I agree with the basic thesis of your post, with the caveat that the RCC's knowledge, as an entity, of the systematic rapes is not an assumption, it is a fact. They developed, and implemented, a strategy to manage the fall-out. They knew. The RCC, as an entity, is culpable; the laity,given these latest reports and preponderance of evidence, are increasingly complicit with every future donation to this culture of child rape.

However, my question and astonishment were directed at the apparently purposeful and willful ignorance on display at the individual level.

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Response to NeoGreen (Reply #17)

Wed Aug 29, 2018, 08:56 AM

18. Willful ignorance is a good description

The OP has a history of trying to pretend the RCC's culture of child rape is no different than any other large organization.

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