The Roman Catholic Church deserves to be shut down.

[guillaumeb]

I have read that comment here. It is said in the context of the scandal over the sexual predation and the cover ups that we have read much about.


Given that many times, children are molested in schools, should we advocate for shutting down schools?

Given that in many instances, children are molested in the home, should we eliminate families?

[Voltaire2]

1. A school administration that did the shit the RCC did

would be in jail. A family that abuses their children loses custody of those children.

Stop apologizing for child abusers.

[guillaumeb]

2. Another weak attempt at framing.

In response to my observation.

[Voltaire2]

3. Lulzd.

The whole pack of popes bishops cardinals and priests, everyone involved in the abuse and the cover up, they all need to go to jail.

[guillaumeb]

4. Everyone involved in the assaults, and the cover ups,

deserves to be prosecuted.

[Voltaire2]

17. That is the entire RCC hierarchy.

Also, like any other criminal organization their assets should be seized.

Glad you agree the whole rotten mess needs to be disbanded.

[mitch96]

33. "criminal organization their assets should be seized"

Hit 'em in the wallet. I think removing their tax free status until they clean up their act would be a good start.. If the actions do not produce results, start removing other things of value to the church etc... Better than a RICO case....
m

[guillaumeb]

35. Saying that it is the entire hierarchy is hyperbole,

and unproven.

[edhopper]

22. That is exactly the point

those schools and those families should pay the full price.

[guillaumeb]

36. How? eom

[edhopper]

37. A private school that enables child rape for decades

going up to the head of the school should be desolved.

[guillaumeb]

38. Do you feel that guilt attaches to everyone in that school?

Given that most adults do not, in fact, rape children, most adults might be unaware of who the child rapists are. And given that, like rape in general, it often goes unreported, how do we show that a cover up occurred?

In the case of the RCC, there were examples of testimony, but rarely in my reading was it contemporaneous to when the abuse occurred. But there are good examples of cover ups also.

[edhopper]

39. the cover ups

were crimes too. And it's the cover ups that make, the whole Church culpable.

[guillaumeb]

43. Agreed that cover ups are a crime.

But equating those who covered up with the whole Church is not logical.

[edhopper]

45. When I say the whole Church

I mean the clergy and the Vatican, not the congregational members.

[Major Nikon]

13. This is the most blatant effort yet

Just when you think the apologia can’t get any more lame...

[trotsky]

18. I wish I could say I was shocked.

But gil demonstrates the very phenomenon that made the scale and degree of the abuse (and coverup) in the RCC possible: a steadfast, blind devotion to religious beliefs over all else. A willingness to minimize or outright overlook any crime in order to prevent an honest analysis of religious belief and its role. Everyone in the RCC involved in the abuse scandal was sacrificing children to protect their religion. We see gil starting multiple threads to do that very thing - distract, muddy the waters, set up false equivalencies, etc.

I'm honestly surprised we haven't seen one blaming the children for "asking for it", or blaming the "loose morality" of secularism since that's what many in the RCC have done.

[Eko]

5. You are comparing School systems

that operate locally and none of them are part of a whole with the RCC? And then homes? None of them act under the direction of an origination that as part of their actions covered up sexual depredation as policy. Try again.

[guillaumeb]

6. Read my other post

which links to articles about school districts covering up abuse.

[Eko]

7. No,

You are conflating a school district, like so and so county with none of them acting under the direction of an organization that as part of their actions covered up sexual depredation as policy for hundreds of years possibly.Huuuuuuugggggggeeee difference.

[Major Nikon]

8. Whataboutism

Simply put, whataboutism refers to the bringing up of one issue in order to distract from the discussion of another.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Whataboutism

[Lordquinton]

9. This

you beat me to it.

[Major Nikon]

12. ...

[Lordquinton]

15. North bound train on a southbound track

He's alright a leaving but he won't be back

[trotsky]

19. Bingo.

Gil's trademark tactic.

[Major Nikon]

20. That and canned responses

You know the height of banality has been reached when you can fully predict his response to just about anything.

[trotsky]

21. How many are there now?

"You have convinced yourself."

"Misframing."

"You have misunderstood."

"Keep spinning."

For someone that complains that everyone who disagrees with him is in a choir, gil sure seems to be the one who keeps repeating verses.

[Major Nikon]

25. He's convinced of his own righteousness

Notice how sometimes he uses “deceiver”, which is god-boy codespeak for Satan. Logic and reason are tools of the devil and can be summarily dismissed. Makes it far easier to fleece the flock. It’s not hard to spot someone who is so far into delusion argument is pointless. It’s hard to discount the entertainment value though. Just pull the chain and watch.

[marylandblue]

10. Wellston, MO disbanded its police department for lesser crimes

Granted it was just a small police force in a small town, but it was bad enough that the whole thing had to go and nobody bothered to inquire of each individual as to their personal responsibility, if any.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/03/wellston-police-disband_n_7505736.html

On a slightly larger scale, Camden, NJ disbanded it's police force for incompetence.
http://www.governing.com/topics/public-justice-safety/gov-camden-disbands-police-force-for-new-department.html

Bigger yet, Arthur Andersen, a firm with 85,000 employees was driven into bankruptcy over the actions of just a few people in the Enron scandal.

Then on a still bigger scale, the government of the Soviet Union simply dissolved in 1989 due to a total loss of legitimacy, despite the fact that Gorbachev actually seemed like a pretty decent guy.


So there is no question that institutions can be and are disbanded over criminal behavior or other failings. Does the RCC get a special dispension because it is 2,000 years old and has 400,000 priests?

[Major Nikon]

11. A number of big city police departments have made consent decrees with DOJ

... which effectively amount to a federal takeover.

[marylandblue]

14. Maybe the Quakers can take over the Vatican

And clean the place up a bit. Too many elaborate Renaissance decorations.

[MineralMan]

16. Pure Whataboutism.

No equivalency at all. Not even a good try...

[edhopper]

23. You continue to reframe this in an disingenuous way.

Last edited Thu Sep 6, 2018, 11:34 AM - Edit history (1)

Your comparison would be if I said (and this is about my posts) all religious organizations should be eliminated because of the RCC scandal.

I did not and you know that is not what I said.

Your premise should then be Should those particular shools with a long history of child rape be shut down?

Should those families that continued to enable child rape be broken up?

Should an organization that engaged in this behavior for decades be left unscathed?

Why do they still have any legitimacy?

Is your answer no because human failings blah, blah blah?

[Lordquinton]

27. Seems to be a common tactic

Compare their end with the middle ground and claim it's an extreme. Like saying that removing"in God we trust" is an atheist extreme when it's the neutral position.

[Act_of_Reparation]

24. "I read that comment here"

I read a comment here conflating systemic problems with individual crimes, and yet I didn't feel compelled to start a thread about it. Rather, I assumed it was simply the opinion a single individual more concerned with theatrics than they are the safety of children.

[WestIndianArchie]

26. Well

I say we shut down the church. This crap has been going on for too long. Not to mention the coverups.

[Lordquinton]

28. I wholeheartedly agree!

But I only read your title, so the details might be muddy.

[dlk]

30. RICO Prosecution?

Tens of thousands of cover-ups of sexual assault spanning decades

[Permanut]

31. This a textbook example of whataboutism..

should be used in logic classes to illustrate the rhetorical device.

[gibraltar72]

32. It was Satan not the priests or the church. Amiright?

[qazplm135]

34. I dont know that the RCC deserves to be shut down

or how one would even accomplish it, but again your analogies are painfully bad.

There is no school with the size and organization of the RCC.

If a school were found to systematically be covering up child molestation over decades and decades? It would absolutely and unequivocally be shut down.

If parents were found to have molested their children, they would cease to be allowed to be parents (i.e. "shut down.&quot

You're comparing apples to a global apple conglomerate.

[gtar100]

40. Just my own 2 cents here... It seems the RCC has a unique opportunity now

to clean house and get rid of the pedophiles or risk being stained even more with this horrific problem, in which case their demise is their own fault and long overdue. If they don't do enough, they deserve all the ridicule heaped upon them and unfortunately will also be hurting those members who are sincere in their beliefs. Nobody's asked me (they rarely do) but "do enough" to me means turning all sexual predators over to local law enforcement and fully cooperating with them through the investigation and prosecution if it comes to that. In other words, they shouldn't put up with this shit, not even a little. Not only do these crimes hurt the victims (for a lifetime!) but they also damage a church that many go to for community, worship, spiritual healing and being part of something greater than themselves. All that and more gets eroded away when the leadership of the church acts antithetical to their own religious teachings.

A lot more could be said about this but that's the gist of it...as a first step. Do they deserve another chance? Depends on who you ask; they've already had a lot of time to get their shit together. But the RCC is not what's important here; the lives of the people who put their trust in the church should take precedence.

[Mariana]

41. They can't just get rid of the pedophiles.

That won't do, not anymore. They have to get rid of the enablers, too - everyone who was actively involved in covering up and protecting the perpetrators, and everyone who knew it was going and and didn't do anything real to try to stop it.

But, if they do that, who is left?

[gtar100]

42. Yea that's true, the enablers should be included.

If nobody's left in the leadership hierarchy, well that would be something to behold. I'm being hypothetical in suggesting they clean house, though; but how else can this situation be fixed? I don't trust many people to overcome the desire for power and/or pleasure. If all involved were miraculously smitten by the hand of God, the power vacuum left behind would just be filled with those next in line craving control over others. In truth, I suspect the process will be a lot more messy. Our world rewards those willing to use and abuse others for personal gain and it's sickening. But the church leaders do have an opportunity right now to do the right thing. I'm not holding my breath for it to happen but am more than willing to be surprised.

[guillaumeb]

44. Agreed.

Pedophiles, and those who ignored the pedophiles, need to be removed and they need to be prosecuted.