Is virginity sacred or something?

[Cartoonist]

Jesus was born of a virgin.
He died a virgin.

[LakeArenal]

1. Whatever anyone "interprets" it should be?

Though I always wondered what family values they were, that Jesus demanded twelve men leave their homes and families penniless to follow him around for twenty years.

[Moostache]

4. I prefer to think of Jesus and the Apostles differently...

In my mind, they are the ORIGINAL Village People...Peter was the Cop, Paul was the sailor, Thomas was a butch biker, and Jesus himself was the Indian with the big-ass chieftain head-dress...their sermons were positively the Judean bomb.com of Palestine circa 30 AD and their club shows were obviously legendary!

[50 Shades Of Blue]

2. It's a sick, repressive obsession of some faith systems.

P.S. I don't believe Jesus even existed.

[Doodley]

3. Yes. It is sacred if we give it sufficient value.

[vlyons]

5. Jesus was not born as a virgin

There is no such thing as virgin birth for mammals. Humans are mammals, specifically apes. Virgin birth of Jesus is a myth. Ask yourself, if Jesus was born of a virgin, where did he get his X chromozome? Whether Jesus was a virgin is unknown. Traditionally, Jewish Rabbis were expected to marry and produce children. We don't know if Jesus was married, because the New Testament doesn't say. The New Testament doesn't say because either it was never recorded, or because it was purged.

Ancient people, until modern times quite actually, didn't know how babies were made. Oh they certainly knew how to have sex, and that it took a male and a female to make offspring. In addition to human sex, they also bred livestock. But they didn't know that it is male, who determines the sex of children. They thought that females were just empty vessels into which males deposited their seed, and it was the woman's "fault" if she had female babies. The thing about Virginity is that in a patriarchal society the only way to insure that a man's children were his own was to marry a virgin and keep his harem isolated from other men.

In a matriarchal society, it doesn't matter who the father is, because children and property belong to the women. A man is responsible for his sisters and female cousins' children. In some matriarchal societies, young unmarried women, who already one or more children were prized as potential wives, because that had already proved that they could successfully give birth to healthy babies.

Go read Margaret Meade's "Coming of Age in Samoa."

[Major Nikon]

30. The Bible does say there was a special disciple Jesus loved

Assuming he existed he was likely gay or a pederast.

[MineralMan]

6. Both things are unsubstantiated myths.

In the first place, someone or something impregnated Mary, if that even happened, and that someone or something donated a chromosome for the male baby.

In the second place, there is nothing in the Bible that says that Jesus, if he existed at all, was a virgin as an adult. Nothing.

Mythology.

[marylandblue]

7. "Someone or something impregnated Mary"

Why is that a myth? Isn't that the usual way? Someone with some thing always impregnates a woman, so that version seems highly probable. 😀

[MineralMan]

8. But that's not the doctrine.

Mary was divinely knocked up by the Holy Spirit. What guy is that? Jesus's conception was supernatural. Billions of people apparently believe that nonsense. Do Holy Spirits have y- chromosomes and magical penises that don't tear hymens?

Jesus was a male human, as a human. Where did the y-chromosome come from? It's mythology. Some of the Greek and Roman deities also impregnated mortals. Do we believe that? No. That's just a myth from a dead religion.

I fail to see the difference. It's all mythology. It's all a fiction. We know how genetics work, now. Unbelievable.

[marylandblue]

10. I was making a joke, but I guess it didn't work.

[MineralMan]

11. I'm sorry, but I don't find religions that dominate societies amusing.

I find their followers amusing, of course, if that helps, though.

[marylandblue]

12. It's okay, I understand.

Cheers.

[vlyons]

31. You have to go all the way back to the 1st Council of Nicea in 325 AD

That is when the ideology of Christianity was formalized. Constantine the Great convened it. We have plenty of evidence that Constantine worshipped Apollo, and thought that Jesus was a divine son, or possibly a divine emanation of Apollo.

[MineralMan]

32. Yes. Well, the Canon is the result of political

decisions. Decisions made long ago, about which we have few details.

[saidsimplesimon]

29. I didn't fall for this myth when

I was a child of about 5. Birthing and nurturing a decent human being does not require a virgin birth.

It is part of the "creed" to join any Christian religious cult. imo

[guillaumeb]

9. Jesus was the firstborn of Mary.

But the word can be mistranslated as "virgin".

[marylandblue]

13. Luke 1:34-35 seems pretty unambiguous.

[guillaumeb]

14. Not to the informed reader.

And that can be a problem when reading any text.

The Hebrew word almah is often mistranslated as virgin, when it actually refers to an unmarried woman who is presumed to be a virgin.

[marylandblue]

15. Yes, that's true, but it was translated "parthenos" in the Septugint

which usually means virgin. In Luke 1:34-35, Mary's question makes no sense if she is not a virgin. The answer also makes no sense.

Early Church fathers, native Greek speakers reading this in Greek, said she was a virgin. So if you disagree with them, that's your prerogative, but their error wasn't because they didn't know Greek.

[guillaumeb]

35. Parthenos means young woman and virgin.

[marylandblue]

38. If I were you, I'd make a snide remark about your lack of understanding

Since I am not you, Instead I'll just suggest you reread my post, with the following gloss:
The text of the Ancient Greek New Testament written by fluent Ancient Greek speakers and interpreted by the early Greek Church Fathers who spoke native Ancient Greek and lived in countries where Ancient Greek was the primary language and wrote their commentaries in Ancient Greek for other Ancient Greek speakers made clear which sense of the Ancient Greek word they thought the Ancient Greek word meant. Did I mention that they were native Ancient Greek speakers and you are not?

If you wish to disagree with their interpretation for theological reasons, that's fine. But it's simply not viable to argue that the difference is due to them not understanding their own native language.

[guillaumeb]

40. #36.

A good reason for not making the remark.

[marylandblue]

41. That is not relevant to the case I am making

As you can see in post 15, I agreed with you about the possible translations. My case rests on context, both in the Bible passage itself, and in the early commentaries.

[Major Nikon]

33. The book of Matthew was authored in Greek

... and uses the Greek word for virgin.

I’m sure they just misunderstood as well. You should write a letter to the pope and set him straight on the subject.

[guillaumeb]

36. Parthenos has 2 meanings.

Virgin is one of them. Young woman is another.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=g3933

You are welcome, and it was a good response, but incomplete.

[Major Nikon]

37. Your link doesn't say that

It’s wrong, and Matthew 1:18 is not ambiguous.

No thanks on the nonsense, BTW. Try harder next time if you don’t want to be laughed at for unintentional humor.

[guillaumeb]

39. From the link:

a virgin
a marriageable maiden
a woman who has never had sexual intercourse with a man
one's marriageable daughter

Speaking of nonsense, your reply is a textbook illustration.

[MineralMan]

42. That's Strong' s interpretation.

[Major Nikon]

44. No, that's Gil's interpretation. See #43

[Major Nikon]

43. An unimpressive display of duplicitous editing

What it actually says is...

I. a virgin

A. a marriageable maiden

B. a woman who has never had sexual intercourse with a man

C. one's marriageable daughter

It means in all cases a virgin, just a specific type who is of an age to be married as opposed to a virgin infant.

Meanwhile dozens of other sources also cite it as virgin and nothing else, probably because it means virgin. That’s also why it’s always translated as virgin.

But you always know better, Gil. Please do try harder because I’m still...

[Cuthbert Allgood]

16. So you aren't Catholic, then.

Clearly they are wrong. You should go straighten them out.

[MineralMan]

19. Guy won't say what he believes, exactly.

So, nobody knows...

[marylandblue]

20. He hints that he is Catholic because he says he had a Jesuit education

[MineralMan]

21. He was educated at Jesuit schools, but hasn't claimed to be

A Catholic, I think. He says he believes in a "Creator," but that's about it. Many have asked him specific questions about doctrinal questions, but no answers are given. He will say he isxactheist, though.

[marylandblue]

22. Since we have so little evidence, we can only guess

But I think he is Catholic with heretical views that he only hints at here. He priest probably doesn't know what he really thinks any more than we do.

[MineralMan]

23. For the sake of argument,

One can temporarily adopt any sort of claim of belief. Then, when the argument shifts, so can the claims.

For me, regardless of the argument, I am an atheist. For some, actual beliefs are transient and alterable to suit.

[Major Nikon]

34. He said he is a deist and a theist

Which is a mutual contradiction.

[MineralMan]

18. Round young virgins tender and mild...

'Tis the season, Fa la...

[Brainstormy]

27. the word was mistranslated from

the word meaning "maiden", or young girl, which is neither here nor there since many pagan religions had myths of gods born of virgin births, hence this borrowing by the writer of this particular Biblical fiction.

[Major Nikon]

45. Except it's not a mistranslation

The word in Luke is often used to refer to a virgin. Context also matters, which is why it’s always translated as virgin.

[Brainstormy]

46. while I concede there's debate,

the original Hebrew books were translated into Greek anywhere from the 3rd Century BCE to as late as 132 BCE. Isaiah 7:14 uses a particular word, almah, whose meaning is variously “young woman”, “girl” or “virgin”. Jewish and secular scholars have argued that it is this word which has caused much trouble in the interpretation of the prophecy of Isaiah 7.

Many scholars, Richard Carrier among them, believe the intent was never virgin.

[Major Nikon]

47. We are talking about two different things

The OT prophesy might be debatable, but regardless it's quite clear the NT authors understood it to mean virgin. Even if someone wants to debate the words taken out of the NT, the context is quite clear in both Matthew and Luke.

You have to remember the NT authors went to great lengths to invent a story that was as close as they could get to the OT prophesies. For the purposes of discussing the NT, the authors' believed the OT specified a virgin so a virgin is what they invented.

[Bretton Garcia]

24. Virginity is important to vampires

And rakes wishing to avoid venereal disease

Also jealous males

And those who wish to exploit innocence.

And those who want to propose an inhuman or miraculous pregnancy, to avoid embarrassing questions of legitimacy

[Cartoonist]

25. That last one is key

That's also why Moses had to be found in a basket.

[malchickiwick]

26. If it's not a personal question ...

[MineralMan]

28. Life of Brian Clips Are Like Gold!

There's something for everyone in that movie, and a clip that's relevant to almost anything.

[Cartoonist]

48. Addendum

Virgin of virgins. LOL