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MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
Wed Nov 28, 2018, 02:01 PM Nov 2018

Why Progressive Religious Populism Won't Work in the United States

Here are the largest Christian Denominations in the US:

The Catholic Church, 68,202,492 members.
The Southern Baptist Convention, 16,136,044 members.
The United Methodist Church, 7,679,850 members.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 6,157,238 members.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States

So, let's look at three of those:

The Roman Catholic Church - A patriarchal hierarchy that places women in a secondary role, rejects LGBTQ rights, prohibits the use of contraception and abortion, and hides sexual abuse of children by its own clergy.

The Southern Baptist Convention - The most conservative of Protestant denominations, its leaders despise women's rights to reproductive choice, support Donald J. Trump universally, and oppose all LGBTQ rights. They support right-wing populism, and use Islam, atheism and minorities as scapegoats.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints - Also a very conservative denomination, which represses all women's rights, and does not support LGBTQ rights. Also supporters of Donald J. Trump's brand of populism.

The United Methodist Church is the exception among those most populous Christian denominations. It generally takes a centrist position on the issues named above.

With Christianity as the largest religious group in the United States, it's clear that its largest denominations do not support a progressive agenda, generally, and would oppose a progressive populist movement. Membership in the three most conservative denominations includes enough people to elect a President on their own.

Need I say more?

70 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Why Progressive Religious Populism Won't Work in the United States (Original Post) MineralMan Nov 2018 OP
Can still try ck4829 Nov 2018 #1
How derivative. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #2
Not derivative. A direct response to your thread. MineralMan Nov 2018 #3
The substance is lacking. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #4
Balderdash and codswallop. MineralMan Nov 2018 #5
Exactly. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #6
Codswallop, ok shit, now I have to look that one up Eliot Rosewater Nov 2018 #10
I must admit to being unfamiliar with the 2 words. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #20
Balderdash is an oldie but a goodie but that other one...LOL Eliot Rosewater Nov 2018 #22
That sounds like a plan. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #23
Now that's a worthwhile goal. Lipinski is, perhaps, my least favorite DEM House member. MineralMan Nov 2018 #24
I worked for Newman's campaign. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #32
It didn't work. MineralMan Nov 2018 #34
As long as the person you get nominated doesnt have a poorer chance of beating the con. Eliot Rosewater Nov 2018 #25
Lipinski lost to Newman in the suburbs, and won by name recognition in the city. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #33
Oh may, words saidsimplesimon Nov 2018 #52
Fortunately, we have Google now. MineralMan Nov 2018 #55
LOL! And yet you never replied in your own thread MineralMan Nov 2018 #7
marylandblue did an excellent job of making my case. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #8
But you did not. MineralMan Nov 2018 #9
The author made my case. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #15
So, am I to take it that articles you excerpt in posts MineralMan Nov 2018 #16
Never assume. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #17
So, I've been right all along, then? MineralMan Nov 2018 #18
One of the constants of your posts is in evidence. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #19
Well, I'm glad we cleared that up, MineralMan Nov 2018 #21
Horseshit Major Nikon Nov 2018 #40
From YOUR own history: guillaumeb Nov 2018 #45
Great job of not actually reading what you replied to Major Nikon Nov 2018 #46
Actual history. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #47
Actual horseshit as usual Major Nikon Nov 2018 #48
Yes, yes. Mariana Nov 2018 #54
And the abolitionists were theists. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #60
Yes, yes, you already said that. Mariana Nov 2018 #61
Theists are humans. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #62
No shit Sherlock. Mariana Nov 2018 #63
People will do what they wish to do. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #64
"But progressive theists were involve in every progressive movement in the US," MineralMan Nov 2018 #65
Today, we know who it is Mariana Nov 2018 #68
That is most certainly true, to quote Martin Luther. MineralMan Nov 2018 #70
The point is progressive religious populism. Not progresive atheists. guillaumeb Nov 2018 #69
But you seemed to think the theism Mariana Nov 2018 #66
Right... Act_of_Reparation Nov 2018 #67
Not sure what you mean by "won't work." wryter2000 Nov 2018 #11
I mean "won't work" as in "won't be effective in winning." MineralMan Nov 2018 #12
Well, we're pretty much ignored wryter2000 Nov 2018 #13
I attended services at an Episcopal church for a while, MineralMan Nov 2018 #14
Majority of voters are Christian qazplm135 Nov 2018 #26
Yes, exactly. Which is what Trump did. MineralMan Nov 2018 #27
And progressive Christians turned out for Hillary qazplm135 Nov 2018 #31
Still, the majority of Christian voters cast their ballots for Trump. Mariana Nov 2018 #35
really? qazplm135 Nov 2018 #36
Yes, really. Mariana Nov 2018 #37
so Obama won Catholics twice qazplm135 Nov 2018 #38
The Roman Catholic Church is extremely misogynist. Mariana Nov 2018 #39
I'm pretty sure misogyny is not responsible for the qazplm135 Nov 2018 #41
Yes, most. Mariana Nov 2018 #43
so if it were 51-49 qazplm135 Nov 2018 #44
No, I don't define it as "most". Mariana Nov 2018 #50
You're being disingenuous qazplm135 Nov 2018 #57
The only reason the RCC numbers are different is because of Hispanics Major Nikon Nov 2018 #49
And they are quite enough to outnumber the rest. Mariana Nov 2018 #51
Even those aren't too far behind Major Nikon Nov 2018 #53
I think you are right. Mariana Nov 2018 #56
Not just theists, but they seem to be the worst Major Nikon Nov 2018 #59
Your statistical analysis is quite lacking Major Nikon Nov 2018 #42
The Catholic Church is not its hierarchy. Those in the pews Hassler Nov 2018 #28
And yet, there they are, sitting in the pews and filling the plates. Mariana Nov 2018 #29
Some of them are. Some of them on some issues. MineralMan Nov 2018 #30
Actually the RCC is in fact it's hierarchy. Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #58

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
3. Not derivative. A direct response to your thread.
Wed Nov 28, 2018, 02:22 PM
Nov 2018

Rather than put this response within your thread, I started a new one, because I can do that here. I also replied within your thread.

Obviously, I'm responding to what you posted. Since you did not include any comment on your linked article, I assumed that you had no opinion on the matter. So, I decided to do some analysis of the concept and create a new thread with a title that clearly identified it as a response.

You did not say anything about the article. I did. Do you have any response to the substance of my post? You did not offer one. As of this writing, you have also not bothered to respond to comments in your own thread. Why not?

So, here's a new thread on the subject. I see you have replied to it, but not to its substance.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
6. Exactly.
Wed Nov 28, 2018, 02:30 PM
Nov 2018

But I suspect we are referring to different things.

I understand the need of some to present religion as a bad thing. I do. But ignoring the past and present existence of religious progressives risks alienating allies. Making the Democratic tent smaller is a losing strategy.

Eliot Rosewater

(31,097 posts)
10. Codswallop, ok shit, now I have to look that one up
Wed Nov 28, 2018, 02:55 PM
Nov 2018


You two are entertaining, and examples of how liberals can disagree and do so without cutting each others throats.

Eliot Rosewater

(31,097 posts)
22. Balderdash is an oldie but a goodie but that other one...LOL
Wed Nov 28, 2018, 03:33 PM
Nov 2018

You two keep arguing right up to election day and I will see you both in line and we will vote straight democratic ticket together!

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
23. That sounds like a plan.
Wed Nov 28, 2018, 03:36 PM
Nov 2018

But before then, I will be working on electing a more progressive Democrat like Marie Newman to replace Dan Lipinski, the anti-ACA Representative who barely beat her in the IL 3rd District.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
24. Now that's a worthwhile goal. Lipinski is, perhaps, my least favorite DEM House member.
Wed Nov 28, 2018, 03:38 PM
Nov 2018

Perhaps in 2020. I did not know you lived in that district.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
32. I worked for Newman's campaign.
Wed Nov 28, 2018, 05:56 PM
Nov 2018

Our social justice group held and/or co-sponsored a few events. Lipinski is anti-choice, anti-ACA, and a member of the No labels and Problem Solvers groups.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
33. Lipinski lost to Newman in the suburbs, and won by name recognition in the city.
Wed Nov 28, 2018, 05:56 PM
Nov 2018

It is a solidly blue area.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
7. LOL! And yet you never replied in your own thread
Wed Nov 28, 2018, 02:32 PM
Nov 2018

to replies posted there. But, you're replying now, which was my goal.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
8. marylandblue did an excellent job of making my case.
Wed Nov 28, 2018, 02:33 PM
Nov 2018

And the regular small crowd of naysayers did an excellent job of revealing their own feelings.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
9. But you did not.
Wed Nov 28, 2018, 02:52 PM
Nov 2018

In fact, you made no case at all. You simply pasted in an excerpt from an article without comment as is your wont to do.

That's why I started a new thread on the subject. You never returned to your original thread until I posted the new one. Of course, you chided me for starting a new thread, as expected.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
15. The author made my case.
Wed Nov 28, 2018, 03:13 PM
Nov 2018

And marylandblue did a fine job of making the points that I could have made.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
16. So, am I to take it that articles you excerpt in posts
Wed Nov 28, 2018, 03:15 PM
Nov 2018

represent your opinion unless you say otherwise? That's good to know, Guy. I always wondered about that, since you often post them without comment. From now on, then, I'll assume that you agree with the article unless you say otherwise.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
18. So, I've been right all along, then?
Wed Nov 28, 2018, 03:26 PM
Nov 2018

Since your habit is usually to post such excerpts without comment, I've always treated them as mere curiosities you have discovered. But, then you just told me that you agreed with a particular one. I guess I'll go back to my original assumption, then.

You could fix that, of course, by adding comments to your copy and paste posts, to indicate how we are to take them.

If I may make a suggestion, though: Do read the entire article before pasting a portion of it. A number of times, you have embarrassed yourself by not doing so.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
19. One of the constants of your posts is in evidence.
Wed Nov 28, 2018, 03:30 PM
Nov 2018

And it is seen in many of your posts.

And it reveals much about you, and nothing about those to whom you direct it.

And what it reveals, well that is for others to judge.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
40. Horseshit
Thu Nov 29, 2018, 01:09 PM
Nov 2018

The "history" you referenced has exactly zero examples of a progressive religious populist movement overcoming a decidedly overwhelming regressive religious populist majority.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
45. From YOUR own history:
Thu Nov 29, 2018, 05:01 PM
Nov 2018

The anti-slavery movement ws led by theists.

The Civil Rights movement was mainly led by theists.

I believe that 2>0.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
48. Actual horseshit as usual
Thu Nov 29, 2018, 06:30 PM
Nov 2018

Of all the most prominent civil rights leaders, MLK,Jr was the only one who wasn’t secular. The movement was started by the NAACP, major unions, and community organizers. Discribing the movement as led by theists(plural) is either dishonest or ignorant of “actual history”. I get you desperately want to claim everything that’s good comes from theism while disclaiming all the bad, but this one is even exceptionally ridiculous by your standards.

Getting called a history failure by someone who just tried to convince us how great missionaries have been for indigenous people is something of a knee slapper, so please do continue. Soon there won’t be a dry eye in the house.

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
54. Yes, yes.
Thu Nov 29, 2018, 06:53 PM
Nov 2018

Slaveholders were theists.

The Jim Crow laws were written by theists, who were elected by theists.

Now what?

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
61. Yes, yes, you already said that.
Thu Nov 29, 2018, 09:48 PM
Nov 2018

How is it relevant that the vast majority of people on both sides of these issues were theists?

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
63. No shit Sherlock.
Fri Nov 30, 2018, 01:51 PM
Nov 2018

So, what point were you trying to make? People's stances on these issues doesn't seem to have corresponded with their theism or lack of it. So, why do you think the theism of people on one side of an issue is relevant, and the theism of people on the other side isn't?

When it comes to the issue of slavery in particular, the Christian slaveholders could demonstrate that the Bible explicitly endorses the practice of slavery, and never specifically condemns it. It's even supported by the 10th Commandment, in which God commands the people not to covet their neighbors' slaves.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
64. People will do what they wish to do.
Fri Nov 30, 2018, 02:07 PM
Nov 2018

And they often attempt to justify it by citing outside sources.

Many US citizens still feel the atomic terror attacks on Japan were justified.

But progressive theists were involve in every progressive movement in the US, and to deny that is to deny history in service to an agenda.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
65. "But progressive theists were involve in every progressive movement in the US,"
Fri Nov 30, 2018, 02:25 PM
Nov 2018

As were progressive atheists, Guy. Apparently there is no connection between progressivism and religious beliefs, you see. As someone who was active in both the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement, I knew both religious believers and atheists who were leaders and activists in both movements.

Everyone worked together. Religion was not the issue at any time. The injustices were.

Perhaps you don't have that experience. That's sort of surprising, really.

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
68. Today, we know who it is
Fri Nov 30, 2018, 02:30 PM
Nov 2018

working day and night to deprive women, LGBT people, and religious minorities of equal rights. It is theists doing that. They are motivated by their religion and they believe what they are doing is pleasing to God.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
70. That is most certainly true, to quote Martin Luther.
Fri Nov 30, 2018, 02:36 PM
Nov 2018

It was also theists who executed heretics, invaded Muslim countries during the Crusades, blocked the sales of contraceptives in the United State until the mid 1960s, and did a host of other decidedly non-progressive things.

Some theists, a minority, did join with other progressives in a wide range of movements. Some. A minority. When they did, they found themselves working alongside atheists, agnostics, and others on common concerns.

It is a mistake to conflate a minority with the majority. A majority of theists are conservative thinkers, rather than progressive thinkers, whether the subject is religion or soclal issues. If that were not the case, we'd have solved many very difficult problems long ago.

It's good when theists join with others for social justice. It is a shame when the majority of theists does not join in the same goals.

Some try to use faulty logic to "say the thing that is not," as the Houyhnhnms put it. That is regrettable.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
69. The point is progressive religious populism. Not progresive atheists.
Fri Nov 30, 2018, 02:30 PM
Nov 2018

And history, recent and past, shows that theists have always been in the forefront of progressive populist movements.

I have worked with Quakers and Unitarians as recently as this year on the Marie Newman campaign.

As to progressive atheists, I know a number of them, but this is the religion group, and the dsicussion centers around progressivism as it relates to theism.

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
66. But you seemed to think the theism
Fri Nov 30, 2018, 02:26 PM
Nov 2018

of people on only one side of these issues was relevant, so much so that you pointed it out twice.

In post #45, you said: "he anti-slavery movement ws led by theists. The Civil Rights movement was mainly led by theists. I believe that 2>0."

Then, in post #60, you said: "And the abolitionists were theists. As was Lincoln. Now, on to the civil rights movement."

You conveniently left out the fact that it was theists put in place the system of slavery in the United States, and who later enforced racial segregation and systemic discrimination. Don't you think their theism is equally relevant?

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
67. Right...
Fri Nov 30, 2018, 02:28 PM
Nov 2018

And by what mechanism do people determine what it is they wish to do?

It's ok. We'll wait.

But progressive theists were involve in every progressive movement in the US, and to deny that is to deny history in service to an agenda.


lolwut

wryter2000

(46,016 posts)
11. Not sure what you mean by "won't work."
Wed Nov 28, 2018, 02:57 PM
Nov 2018

If you mean "can't exist," I'd have to point you to the Episcopal church. We're a small church, and we're having internal struggles regarding LGBT justice, but for the most part, we're pretty progressive.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
12. I mean "won't work" as in "won't be effective in winning."
Wed Nov 28, 2018, 02:58 PM
Nov 2018

I realize that the Episcopal Church, along with the ELCA Lutheran church and others are more progressive in nature. They're also much, much smaller than the conservative denominations, only three of which I mentioned, since they were the largest.

wryter2000

(46,016 posts)
13. Well, we're pretty much ignored
Wed Nov 28, 2018, 03:01 PM
Nov 2018

Unless we elect a gay bishop or Michael Curry goes to England to preach to the royals.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
14. I attended services at an Episcopal church for a while,
Wed Nov 28, 2018, 03:06 PM
Nov 2018

Last edited Wed Nov 28, 2018, 03:39 PM - Edit history (1)

while I was in high school. My girlfriend at the time went there, so I went with her and sat with her family, to increase their confidence in me, as it were. After we broke up, though, I went back to the Presbyterian church I normally attended.

qazplm135

(7,447 posts)
26. Majority of voters are Christian
Wed Nov 28, 2018, 03:48 PM
Nov 2018

so not sure how you get a Dem or a progressive elected President without a whole lot of Christians voting for said person.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
27. Yes, exactly. Which is what Trump did.
Wed Nov 28, 2018, 03:51 PM
Nov 2018

He focused on the conservative Christians. They turned out for him, too. It was very, very close, and wound up being a state-by-state win, despite losing the popular vote.

Trump is a populist. He won, with the help of the religious right.

qazplm135

(7,447 posts)
31. And progressive Christians turned out for Hillary
Wed Nov 28, 2018, 04:59 PM
Nov 2018

she did get 3 million more votes, and I'm fairly confident that demographically the majority of them were Christians.

Obama won twice, again, majority of the folks that voted for him were also Christians.

Populism worked quite well for Dems in another time and era, it's working for Trump now. It will work for the next person who can wield it in the future who could easily be on either side of the aisle. Heck, Sherrod Brown uses it to win red Ohio quite easily.

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
35. Still, the majority of Christian voters cast their ballots for Trump.
Wed Nov 28, 2018, 06:34 PM
Nov 2018

Most of those who did so still support him and would enthusiastically vote for him again if given the chance. We'll get nowhere if we pretend this isn't true.

I don't know what the numbers were for Obama's elections.

qazplm135

(7,447 posts)
36. really?
Thu Nov 29, 2018, 10:31 AM
Nov 2018

She got 3 million more votes. The vast majority of this country is Christian so the vast majority of voters are Christian.

Regardless, Obama got a lot more votes than his rivals, particularly McCain. I'd wager he got more Christian votes.

The point is refuting the argument that Christian populism can't work on our behalf. Of course it can. Doesn't mean it will, and doesn't mean it can't work for the other side.

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
37. Yes, really.
Thu Nov 29, 2018, 12:02 PM
Nov 2018

Protestants voted 58% Trump and 39% Clinton.
Catholics voted 52% Trump and 45% Clinton.
Mormons, whom some people count as Christian, voted 61% Trump and 25% Clinton.

Christianity is a misogynist religion, so this shouldn't be any great surprise.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/how-the-faithful-voted-a-preliminary-2016-analysis/ft_16-11-09_relig_exitpoll_religrace/

This link also shows data from some previous elections.

qazplm135

(7,447 posts)
38. so Obama won Catholics twice
Thu Nov 29, 2018, 12:55 PM
Nov 2018

This is also exit poll data which is usually off one way or the other by a bit.

I strongly suspect some of those "religiously unaffiliated" self-identify as Christian. Both Obama and Clinton won that group handily.

Point is, plenty of Christians vote Dem, and it's not like it's some blowout except among evangelicals.

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
39. The Roman Catholic Church is extremely misogynist.
Thu Nov 29, 2018, 01:03 PM
Nov 2018

It makes sense that a higher percentage of Catholics voted for Obama than for Clinton.

Yes, plenty of Christians vote Democratic. In 2016, most of them didn't. It's foolish to pretend otherwise just because you wish it wasn't so.

qazplm135

(7,447 posts)
41. I'm pretty sure misogyny is not responsible for the
Thu Nov 29, 2018, 01:39 PM
Nov 2018

five percentage point change between Obama 12 and Clinton 16.

that's a pretty small change relatively speaking.

Most? There was a seven percentage point gap between Trump and Clinton among Catholics. Hispanic Catholics voted for her at a 71 percent clip. Higher than Obama in 12.

There are racial and other components here as well. It isn't simply "misogyny." It's a host of things.

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
43. Yes, most.
Thu Nov 29, 2018, 01:56 PM
Nov 2018

Courtesy of Merriam-Webster

Definition of most (Entry 1 of 6) adjective
1 : greatest in quantity, extent, or degree
2 : the majority of

Most Christian voters went for Trump. I never said it was a huge majority, but it was a majority. That means it was most of them, by definition.

qazplm135

(7,447 posts)
44. so if it were 51-49
Thu Nov 29, 2018, 02:02 PM
Nov 2018

you'd define it as "most?"

I'd wager "most" people wouldn't define it that way, and to do so would be technically correct but pretty disingenuous.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
49. The only reason the RCC numbers are different is because of Hispanics
Thu Nov 29, 2018, 06:36 PM
Nov 2018

If you parse out the white evangelical and non-Hispanic white catholic vote you get a whopping 2:1 margin of people who reliably vote R.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
53. Even those aren't too far behind
Thu Nov 29, 2018, 06:51 PM
Nov 2018

They are far more likely to be more regressive on social issues like abortion and LGBT. So it’s not as if they are the most progressive on the left to begin with.

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
56. I think you are right.
Thu Nov 29, 2018, 07:25 PM
Nov 2018

Some theists right here on DU have said outright that they think abortion is wrong, that it's taking a life, but they're not inclined (right now anyway) to favor forcing women to give birth. Isn't that generous of them?

I can't help but wonder what those numbers would look like if the Republicans had put up a candidate whose political positions were identical to Trump's, but who didn't have such a long public history of amoral, disgusting behavior.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
59. Not just theists, but they seem to be the worst
Thu Nov 29, 2018, 08:10 PM
Nov 2018

Whenever you start assigning hocus pocus spirits to protoplasm it leads to all sorts of bad decisions.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
42. Your statistical analysis is quite lacking
Thu Nov 29, 2018, 01:42 PM
Nov 2018

A) Most Americans identify as Christian
B) Obama got the most votes

Ergo Obama must have gotten more Christian votes.

I shouldn't have to explain the fallacy here.

If the DNC were to adopt a platform of misogyny, homophobia, racism, and xenophobia, then yes a religious populism movement might work for them, but then they would no longer be the party of progressivism.

Hassler

(3,321 posts)
28. The Catholic Church is not its hierarchy. Those in the pews
Wed Nov 28, 2018, 04:10 PM
Nov 2018

Are in disaggreement with their Clerical Overlords about such things as divorce, abortion, birth control, etc. When Hispanic Catholics are factored in, even more so.

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
29. And yet, there they are, sitting in the pews and filling the plates.
Wed Nov 28, 2018, 04:41 PM
Nov 2018

As long as those in the pews continue to support the hierarchy, their Clerical Overlords have no motivation to change.

Voltaire2

(12,625 posts)
58. Actually the RCC is in fact it's hierarchy.
Thu Nov 29, 2018, 08:09 PM
Nov 2018

People outside of the church organization have no legal standing regarding the RCC, it’s assets, it’s operations, it’s organization.

Inside the RCC it is an authoritarian hierarchy.

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