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Fri Apr 19, 2019, 10:32 AM

Moses and the Passover story is pure myth

The Hebrew people were never slaves in Egypt. There was never an exodus and Moses was not a real person.
A combination of myths and stories, primarily from Babylon, make up the origins of this fairy tale.

And haven been brought up Jewish, I can tell you, most Jewish people don't look at this as just allegory.
And belief in this myth has very real world consequences.

And yes, this of all days is when we should talk about it.

22 replies, 1135 views

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Arrow 22 replies Author Time Post
Reply Moses and the Passover story is pure myth (Original post)
edhopper Apr 2019 OP
Act_of_Reparation Apr 2019 #1
edhopper Apr 2019 #2
Act_of_Reparation Apr 2019 #3
trotsky Apr 2019 #5
Act_of_Reparation Apr 2019 #11
MineralMan Apr 2019 #4
guillaumeb Apr 2019 #6
Voltaire2 Apr 2019 #7
guillaumeb Apr 2019 #8
Voltaire2 Apr 2019 #9
Major Nikon Apr 2019 #19
MineralMan Apr 2019 #10
Major Nikon Apr 2019 #18
Act_of_Reparation Apr 2019 #12
edhopper Apr 2019 #13
MineralMan Apr 2019 #14
Major Nikon Apr 2019 #20
uriel1972 Apr 2019 #16
uriel1972 Apr 2019 #15
Voltaire2 Apr 2019 #17
Major Nikon Apr 2019 #21
Major Nikon Apr 2019 #22

Response to edhopper (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 10:38 AM

1. Allegory.

It's really about getting drunk and having a difficult time finding the nearest White Castle.

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #1)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 10:42 AM

2. So that was what all that wandering

was about?

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Response to edhopper (Reply #2)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 10:44 AM

3. Anyone who has tried to find a White Castle drunk knows what I'm talking about.

You know there's one around... but can't remember where you saw it. Maybe Naperville?

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #3)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 12:40 PM

5. "Forget White Castle, let's just go to the McDonald's right there."

"GOLDEN COW BLASPHEMER!!!!!"

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Response to trotsky (Reply #5)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 02:33 PM

11. And then the Lord didst deliver them unto the Promis'd Land

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Response to edhopper (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 11:15 AM

4. But, wait! I saw Moses part the Red Sea.

It was caught on someone's cell phone or something. I saw it for myself in the documentary film, decades ago.

And the plagues? Well, those are recorded on some tomb somewhere in Egypt. It just hasn't been discovered yet.

Yeah, that's the ticket...

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Response to edhopper (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 01:56 PM

6. Let us talk.

There is no archaeological evidence against the historicity of an exodus if it was a smaller group who left Egypt. Indeed, significantly, the first biblical mention of the Exodus, the Song of Miriam, which is the oldest text in the Bible, never mentions how many people were involved in the Exodus, and it never speaks of the whole nation of Israel. It just refers to a people, an am, leaving Egypt.
It wasn’t until a much later source of the Exodus—the so-called priestly source, some 400 years later—that the number 603,550 males was added to the story.


https://reformjudaism.org/exodus-not-fiction


Is the Biblical Exodus fact or fiction?
This is a loaded question. Although Biblical scholars and archaeologists argue about various aspects of Israel’s Exodus from Egypt, many of them agree that the Exodus occurred in some form or another.
The question “Did the Exodus happen” then becomes “When did the Exodus happen?” This is another heated question. Although there is much debate, most people settle into two camps: They argue for either a 15th-century B.C.E. or 13th-century B.C.E. date for Israel’s Exodus from Egypt.


https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/exodus/exodus-fact-or-fiction/

Sometimes we see what we want to see because it supports our personal beliefs.

And sometimes we ignore what is available to see because it conflicts with our personal beliefs.

If you believe that Moses was a fictional character, and that there was no Exodus, nothing I or anyone here says is likely to convince you otherwise.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #6)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 02:05 PM

7. outside of "biblical archaeology" the general rule is that you need evidence "for" something.

and for exodus, there is none.

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #7)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 02:13 PM

8. Refute the actual archeologists.

And publish your refutation in a journal.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #8)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 02:15 PM

9. "There is no archaeological evidence against the historicity of an exodus"

is ridiculous. You know that right? You don't? Really G? C'mon.

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #9)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 08:24 PM

19. You can't prove otherwise nor can you negate faith with your silly facts and reason

Meanwhile...

There is an almost universal consensus among scholars that the Exodus story is best understood as myth;[26] more specifically, it is a "charter" (or foundation) myth, a story told to explain a society's origins and to provide the ideological foundation for its culture and institutions.[1] While a few scholars continue to discuss the potential historicity or plausibility of the Exodus story, for historians of ancient Israel it is no longer seen as viable and archaeologists have abandoned it as "a fruitless pursuit" (Dever, 2001).[27][28] There is no indication that the Israelites ever lived in Ancient Egypt, and the Sinai Peninsula shows almost no sign of any occupation for the entire 2nd millennium BCE (even Kadesh-Barnea, where the Israelites are said to have spent 38 years, was uninhabited prior to the establishment of the Israelite monarchy).[29] In contrast to the absence of evidence for the Egyptian captivity and wilderness wanderings, there are ample signs of Israel's evolution within Canaan from native Canaanite roots.[30][31]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus#The_Exodus_as_myth_and_history

But yeah, you can't even begin to refute the tiny minority of scholars that continue to pretend there's even the remotest possibility the exodus story isn't complete and utter bullshit as evidenced by the most biased of sources. So there.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #8)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 02:31 PM

10. They refute themselves.

"There is no evidence against" is the same as saying "There is no evidence for." There is no evidence, period.

A claim that something occurred requires evidence that it did. If there is no evidence, one cannot claim that it ever happened.

English. Sometimes statements written in that language are clear. This is one of those times.

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #7)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 08:12 PM

18. Metaphorical Jesus disagrees

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #6)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 02:34 PM

12. LOL

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #6)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 02:38 PM

13. No evidence, none

that the Hebrews were in Egypt anywhere near that time. And we KNOW that Egyptian slavery was more like indentured to work while not farming. It was nothing like that portrayed in the OT. The Egyptians recorded near everything, yet this mass rebellion and exodus escaped their notice.
But in Babylon, when these stories were originated, there was that form of slavery.
And lik Noah and other tales, this one resemples a Babylonian myth.
Like much of the Bilble, much evindence against, little to none supporting.

Citing that the Bible used real names and places is laughable.


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Response to edhopper (Reply #13)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 03:22 PM

14. But, see, it says stuff on some website that sounds like what

someone else wants to be true. It's kind of like quoting from a website that advocates for homeopathic medicine as evidence that homeopathy is real and true.

Advocacy websites are never good sources of information. They advocate for things, so their bias is clearly toward whatever that website advocates for.

If you want information you will like about religion, you can go to religionnews.com to bolster your argument. Never mind that there is a strong bias there. If you want information about the Egyptian captivity, you can go to a biblearchaeology website and it will tell you that you are correct and that there was such a captivity. Bias.

The Internet is chock-full of biased websites with a story to tell and something to sell. You can find anything you want to support any idea you might have, no matter how cockamamie that idea is.

Advocacy websites fool lots of people lots of the time, because they confirm their visitors biases. "It must be true, because it agrees with me."

That is how "There is no evidence that the captivity did not occur" gets translated, somehow into "The captivity did occur, because there is no evidence that it did not." Which gets translated into, "Authorities confirm that the captivity occurred." Of course, it also means, "There is no evidence to support the Egyptian captivity."

It's advocacy and confirmation bias at work. Oldest thing in the book (or the website).

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Response to edhopper (Reply #13)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 08:58 PM

20. The Mormon's believe Native Americans are a lost tribe of Israel

...despite genetic proof they aren't. Once again...

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #6)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 06:31 PM

16. There is no evidence that...

Ancient Aliens haven't visited Earth... So, ANCIENT ALIENS!

This is a game we can all play

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Response to edhopper (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 05:34 PM

15. Is anyone else disturbed by the actual story...

The Pharaoh decides to let the Hebrews free, but God hardens his heart overnight, so God can send a new suffering to the Egyptians.

Plus isn't Passover celebrating the fact that the Hebrew first-born were spared the death plague that killed all the Egyptian first-born? or am missing something.

All in all if it's true it's nasty, if it's a metaphor, what's it a metaphor of?

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Response to uriel1972 (Reply #15)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 06:56 PM

17. Don't get me started.

I am the Atheist Passover Curmudgeon at Seder who cannot shut up when the alleged god allegedly deliberately inflicts horrendous suffering on innocents for no fucking reason whatsoever other than to show the pharaoh that he is a much bigger dick than pharaoh can ever be, and he has made this pharaoh stubborn just so he has the opportunity to inflict woe and demonstrate mightyness.

And that is the question nobody answers after they utter "it's just a metaphor". A metaphor for what? Huh?

Ugh.

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #17)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 08:59 PM

21. Misframing!

Argie-bargie!

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Response to edhopper (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 10:30 PM

22. For fun, ask a Christian why Good Friday to Easter is only 2 days when the bible claims 3

Get ready for an incredible story about Metaphorical Jesus

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