Using Bible apologetics sites as information about things

[MineralMan]

is like quoting from a book by Erich von Däniken with regard to cosmology or archaeology.

Both will give you information to support your cockamamie ideas and satisfy your confirmation bias.

Both are advocating certain positions, and so are unreliable. Generally much of what they say is patent nonsense.

If you don't know who Erich von Däniken is, you have missed an exciting journey into wackadooism from the 1960s, wherein he explains how extraterrestrials did lots of stuff that is why things are as they are. Lots of illustrations and extensive explanations, too. He still has followers, although his popularity is much reduced these days.

Wackadooism is always changing and evolving. For some, it is a religious thing.

[trotsky]

1. But this apologetics site says there is no evidence that what I want to believe *didn't* happen.

So checkmate, atheist. Nyah nyah!

[MineralMan]

2. A lack of evidence for non-existence is just a lack of evidence.

It's the same argument as saying atheism is a belief that gods don't exist. Since there is no evidence that gods don't exist, then gods DO exist. It is proven!

No evidence of nothing is clear evidence of something, apparently.

Nothing does not exist because there is no evidence that nothing does not exist. Tautology 101!

If you are confused, imagine believing that what I just wrote is true.

That kind of logic is called wackadooism. Those who rely on wackadooism are known as wackadologists. One cannot major in wackadology except at certain private colleges, where they have renamed the major as Hermeneutics.

One can achieve a Ph.D. in Wackadology without actually knowing anything at all at the end of your studies. The more rambling and confusing your thesis is, the more honors you earn.

[edhopper]

26. I read those as well

what is amazing is that how soon things like this, the Bermuda Triangle and Roswell were debunked after the shitmeisters wrote their books. And yet, years later we still have this.

[MineralMan]

27. Fanciful speculations are attractive to some if they seem to explain

what is not understood or if they predict or promise a good outcome.

If that were not so, there would be no religions.

[edhopper]

29. On another board

there is a poster who posts YouTube videos about how Aliens are actually evil Angels sent to destroy us.

He is quite serious and is trying to warn us.

[MineralMan]

30. Not surprising, really.

YouTube is full of that kind of nonsense, too.

[Major Nikon]

41. The epitome of the appeal to ignorance fallacy

The best part is when you call bullshit and the response is just to double down and repeat the same nonsense over and over as if bullshit can somehow transform into something other than bullshit through repetition.

[trotsky]

55. To be fair, that's exactly how religious belief often works.

Just keep repeating the bullshit until you accept it. So you really can't fault someone for trying to use the method when it worked on themselves before, I guess.

[Major Nikon]

57. "faith" in a religious context is exactly an appeal to ignorance fallacy

I think deep down people who allege they have "faith" at some level know they have decided to abandon reason. That's why you'll sometimes hear stories of how they have allegedly witnessed something that told them their faith has a basis in something other than fallacy. I suppose it's just a matter of how far you want to go with the self-delusion.

[Nitram]

3. It's sad about von Dniken. We now know that ancient people could and did cross oceans

in small craft. Sometimes on purpose and sometimes carried there by storms. Unfortunately he branched off into whackadoodle ideas about Easter Island and other topics.

[MineralMan]

4. I've never thought it was sad.

he was a charlatan, a plagiarist and a con man. I read a couple of his books shortly after they were published in the late 1960s, and discarded them as nonsense. But, many, many people were taken in by his fantasies, and believed it all to be true, because it confirmed their own biases.

There are parallels that can be drawn between Von Däniken's writings and religious scriptures. I don't think I'll draw them here, though. I don't really have time to do it.

The entire area of Fortean books is fascinating. I don't read them any longer, but for a time, I found them extremely entertaining. It was a wonder to me that there was a market for such fantastic nonsense out there. It does exist, certainly, probably driven by the same thing that drives religious belief. We all want to believe in something marvelous and full of conspiratorial truths.

Humans have wonderful powers of imagination.

[Nitram]

5. As a child we had a photographic book of his Kon-Tiki expedition, and it captured my imagination.

[MineralMan]

6. The interesting thing about the Kon-Tiki thing was that

it is probably how that population spreading actually happened. It's not in the same category as most Fortean writings. The dude made the raft and sailed away on it, and actually got somewhere. That's actual plausibility that has been tested.

But Kon-Tiki was not Von Daniken. That was Thor Heyerdahl. It happened in 1947. Von Daniken's first book, Chariots of the Gods, was not published until 1968.

[Nitram]

17. Ha! You're right. Now I remember who Von Daniken was. Chariots of the gods and all that crap.

I stand corrected. Sorry about that. But Heyerdahl went off the deep and end ended up writing similar crap about the history of Easter Island. A thousand pardons!

[Major Nikon]

7. Just because you want something to be true, does not make it any more true

It's like the people who are convinced Nostradamus could predict the future based on a "metaphorical" reading of what he wrote. Certain language lends itself quite well to twisting it whichever way you like.

At least in the case of Nostradamus you can get a reasonable translation into modern languages regarding what he wrote. In the case of ancient languages we will never know exactly what they were trying to say, must less deriving any sort of intent or hidden meanings. Sort of comical when someone pretends otherwise and then falls back to a position of "faith" when they can't rely on facts or reason. In any other context it would be stupid beyond belief, but somehow religionists get a pass for it. Kinda funny how that works.

[MineralMan]

8. Religion has its own privilege.

That sometimes makes religionists feel invincible. Logic is clearly secondary to that feeling.

[Major Nikon]

11. Hearing voices and hallucinations are generally associated with mental illness

Yet when there's religious connotations the behavior somehow magically becomes "rational". Kinda funny how that works.

[Karadeniz]

9. Most opinions are based on interpreting secondhand/acquired knowledge. That led

Martin Luther to read Jesus's injunctions to do good until you've reached perfection...a goal he knew he couldn't reach...to land on Paul's reference to grace. Et voila, Jesus's message was voided and Christians of faith will enjoy eternal joy even though none of us will deserve it. If Luther had had an actual spiritual experience, he might have been in a position to understand the God system Jesus taught which explains how the goal is accomplished...and it's not grace, faith, forgiveness,or a savior. There will be extremists, but they're not all on fringe web sites. Mainstream Christianity teaches the above four pillars of Christianity and it's fringe (wishful) thinking.

[uriel1972]

10. Um...

How do you know, apart from wishful thinking that Luther did not have an actual spiritual experience?
How do you know he isn't/wasn't right?
Any evidence?
Or just wishful thinking?

[MineralMan]

15. Spiritual experience? What is that?

What is it evidence of, other than impulses in the brain?

[uriel1972]

16. Don't ask me I haven't had one...

since I was properly medicated

[Karadeniz]

20. The neurosurgeon who wrote about his own near death experience explained how he knows his brain

wasn't functioning in a way to account for his experience.

[edhopper]

25. NDE have long been debunked

as the hallucinations of a brain shutting down.

If you are talking about Raymond Moody...you should rethink it all.

[Karadeniz]

40. From what I've read, the dying brain theory has been disproven. But to each, his own.

[edhopper]

49. So you haven''t read the actual neuroscience

or the double blind studies that showed NDE to be just physical reactions.

[Act_of_Reparation]

56. lol

ok.

Know many neurosurgeons?

[Karadeniz]

19. Luther said he was depressed at his inadequacy, but landed on Paul's grace statement.

I think he would have told us if he received insight from a different reality and then recognized that grace met his truth, so eureka! That's not how a Lutheran minister explained Luther to me.

[MineralMan]

12. But, you see, the initial premise that

God exists has no evidence to support it. So, the rest of the logic fails. That is religion's fundamental problem. It's one with no solution.

[uriel1972]

13. They seem so certain...

It's almost as if they have FAITH!

[MineralMan]

14. Faith is their substitute for evidence, the substance of

their hope.

[Karadeniz]

39. But...would you accept a personal experience as evidence? Perhaps you might if you knew

the person well enough. But maybe not.

[MineralMan]

46. Not necessarily.

It would depend on the nature of the experience. For example, telling me about some vision wouldn't qualify as evidence of anything materially real. Not would suddenly recovering from an illness.

[Karadeniz]

21. You're right. No one can prove the existence of a different reality. What about the child

Who was very ill, so no one told her that a cousin had died from the same cause. They wanted her to have hope. However, when she had the strength to talk, she informed her that the cousin had died. The cousin had visited her and told her. So did her fevered brain hallucinate or did her brain condition permit another reality to break through? There are tons of such examples and no one is obligated to believe them. The only thing that matters is to do good.

[MineralMan]

23. Do you have a link to a first-hand account of that story?

There are all sorts of stories out there. Some reflect actual perceived experiences, while others are wishful thinking. Without reference to first-hand accounts, I simply dismiss such stories due to lack of confirmation.

[Karadeniz]

35. I could go to my kindle and list all the books I've read on the subject, but I don't think it's a

priority item for most people, so a waste of time. Now that I think of it, there is a book I might recommend! In a way, it sort of jumps into the spirit reality, but it's written by a man of impeccable credentials and I found it interesting. Many Lives, Many Masters by Brian L. Weiss MD.

I always sugggest people start out with disabusing themselves of the notion that mind is located in the brain. The many experiments chronicling this can be found in Your Eternal Self, by R. Craig Hogan PhD.

Mind surviving death was researched at U. of Arizona by Gary E. Schwartz, PhD., in The Afterlife Experiments.

The granddaddy of all researchers in life after death is Dr. Ian Stephenson. I'd suggest Children Who Remember Previous Lives.

As I've said before, it doesn't matter if one believes in another reality or not. The important thing is to do good.
For knowledge to work towards that end, one needs to know what I call, for want of a better term, the god system. Now I lost you!

[edhopper]

50. Or you can read real science

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-near-death-experience-isnt-proof-heaven/

https://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/aware-results-finally-published-no-evidence-of-nde/

[Mariana]

51. You're suggesting reading real science?

That may cause certain people to perceive you as "a deranged wacko who has been personally attacked and whose world view is in danger of falling off a cliff." Also, some may conclude that you are "rabid when a difference of opinion is expressed."

[Mariana]

28. What child are you talking about?

What was her name? What was the cousin's name? When and where did this happen? What was the illness? Is there any kind of documentation to support this story - e.g. the cousin's death record? It shouldn't be hard to come up with real evidence to support the mundane elements of a story like this.

You know, there are tons of stories of children in the United States being poisoned by candy they got while Trick-or-Treating on Halloween, too. Parents take all kinds of precautions to prevent this, police departments and news outlets warn of the danger, and many parents forbid their kids to go out at all for fear this will happen to them. Do you know how many times such poisonings have actually happened?

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/halloween-non-poisonings/

[Karadeniz]

33. I was conveying the gist of one of hundreds of reports made of survival after physical death. I

Wasn't trying to offer an example suitable for a law court.

[Mariana]

34. You presented no evidence or corroboration at all.

Why, out of "hundreds of reports made of survival after physical death" did you pick one that has nothing whatsoever to back it up? Surely, out of "hundreds of reports made of survival after physical death" you can find some that are more convincing than a vague reference to a story with no details at all.

[Karadeniz]

36. Please see my reply to mineralman in which I give resources. Sorry that my post

apparently upset you. Perhaps you should block me.

[Major Nikon]

43. You didn't provide a single example

You provided a book list of widely discredited authors who write for-profit books marketed to gullible people rather than peer-reviewed research in respected journals.

It looks as if you are the one who is upset by the prospect of actually supporting your assertions. If you want to float such ideas without the bother of critical review, you might consider other groups which are better suited for such things.

[Mariana]

44. This is a discussion board.

Asking questions of a poster on a discussion board is no indication that the questioner is upset. You should understand this, because you've asked questions in this thread, too.

What do you think of the many stories about random poisonings at Halloween? Do you believe such poisonings really happen?

[Iggo]

31. Never happened.*

Next!

(*Produce one shred of researchable evidence and I'll take it back.)

[Karadeniz]

37. You can refer to my reply to MineralMan. The researchable evidence has been done for you

By the authors I refer to. I don't expect you to "take it back."

But I do have an observation. A post advocating atheism doesn't upset me at all. I hope that my reply would be accepted as my opinion/experience; I know I don't respond to atheism as a deranged wacko who has been personally attacked and whose world view is in danger of falling off a cliff. I am at a loss to understand why some nonbelievers sound so rabid when a difference of opinion is expressed.

Also, it has been my experience that Mineralman and Guillaume unfailing display a lack of anger and I'd like to thank them for that.

[Iggo]

42. Which book by which author contains that story?

[Mariana]

45. There you go, Iggo.

Asking for evidence to support a story, and disbelieving it until such evidence is provided, indicates that you are "a deranged wacko who has been personally attacked and whose world view is in danger of falling off a cliff." Also, you are "rabid when a difference of opinion is expressed." For disbelieving a story that sounds like it was told to a group of kids sitting around a campfire.

[Iggo]

47. Yeah, I caught that.

At least s/he thanked MineralMan and guillaumeb for being nicer than me.

[Mariana]

54. It'll be pretty easy for anyone who reads this thread

to determine who is angry, and who isn't.

[MineralMan]

32. I'm still waiting for a source for that dead cousin

visiting a sick child. I've Googled it, but with no results. Where did you get that story?

[Karadeniz]

38. Please see my reply above. Those resources won't contain that particular story;that was in a

collection. The above references contain research for your scientific soul, mineralman. I hope that didn't sound tacky;I've had quite enough tacky for one day! Keep up the good work!

[MineralMan]

48. I saw your post.

None of those books contain any verifiable, unambiguous facts.

[Iggo]

18. "Biblical scholars agree..."

One of my all-time faves.

[Mariana]

22. An additional reminder, to those who would link to such sites:

Before you exhort posters here to visit your favorite Bible apologetics sites, please first ensure that those sites don't contain right-wing hate screeds against women's rights, LGBT people, non-Christians, etc. Please also see that the proprietors of said sites don't openly support organizations that are listed as hate groups by the SPLC.

TIA.

[MineralMan]

24. Quite true, but that takes a deeper dive into

troubled waters, and might cause doubt in the source.

[Permanut]

52. Wackadooism - perfect description.

Never had a succinct label for these crackpots; first one that comes to mind is Hal Lindsey,who published "The Late Great Planet Earth" in 1970. Saw all kinds of signs in earthquakes and stuff that suggested the rapture would happen in the 1980's. He also still has fans, and is a regular on the Bible thumper channels.

[akraven]

53. I know who von Danikenn is.

My answer is S.C.I.E.N.C.E.!