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Since we seem to be discussing Cognitive Biases... (Original Post) NeoGreen Oct 2019 OP
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Oct 2019 #1
Nice thx njhoneybadger Oct 2019 #2
Do you want to start a side pool Cuthbert Allgood Oct 2019 #3
I don't know what anyone else will pick... NeoGreen Oct 2019 #5
Optimism bias Igel Oct 2019 #14
Very handy! Thanks. smirkymonkey Oct 2019 #4
And which of these are you immune to? guillaumeb Oct 2019 #6
None. NeoGreen Oct 2019 #7
Yes. But you did answer. guillaumeb Oct 2019 #8
Define delusional... NeoGreen Oct 2019 #9
A belief that is contradicted by reality. guillaumeb Oct 2019 #10
Your own faith has certain tenets about the nature of your god does it not? AtheistCrusader Oct 2019 #12
My own faith, and any faith, does not rely on proof. guillaumeb Oct 2019 #20
Again, your faith(TM) or religion makes truth claims about the nature of your god(s), correct? AtheistCrusader Oct 2019 #22
These claims are essentially hypotheses about the nature of the Creator. guillaumeb Oct 2019 #23
That is not how they are presented by the humans that advocate for them. AtheistCrusader Oct 2019 #25
Wait a minute, how are we supposed to recify... NeoGreen Oct 2019 #26
How does one differentiate your definition of delusion from... NeoGreen Oct 2019 #13
I guess a delusion would be... uriel1972 Oct 2019 #16
I answered. Now, you answer my question posed in reply #8. guillaumeb Oct 2019 #21
Dialog isn't a mere tit for tat... NeoGreen Oct 2019 #24
So essentially, you refuse to answer. guillaumeb Oct 2019 #28
Just the complete opposite... NeoGreen Oct 2019 #29
I provided a definition. guillaumeb Oct 2019 #30
You know, you really are tedious, you claim you want dialog... NeoGreen Oct 2019 #31
Do you believe Jesus Christ literally existed, was literally dead for 3 days (ok, a day and a half) trotsky Oct 2019 #18
Wait, whose position is that? trotsky Oct 2019 #27
Think of it like an innoculation. It enables your immune system to recognize an invader. AtheistCrusader Oct 2019 #11
An excellent answer. guillaumeb Oct 2019 #19
Media hostility bias. Igel Oct 2019 #15
Whoa boy, here are my cardinal sins: Act_of_Reparation Oct 2019 #17

Response to NeoGreen (Original post)

NeoGreen

(4,030 posts)
5. I don't know what anyone else will pick...
Thu Oct 3, 2019, 02:36 PM
Oct 2019

...but I have my favorite alll...lined...up.


Plus, either way, at least we might have an agreed upon basis for names and definitions of CBs that come up in our elucidate and friendly discussions.

BTW, that's an example of my 4th most frequent bias: Optimism Bias

Igel

(35,191 posts)
14. Optimism bias
Thu Oct 3, 2019, 05:46 PM
Oct 2019

is largely confirmation bias.

What you see confirms what you think, and if there's a proposal that is in line with your thinking you find arguments for it so much more persuasive.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
10. A belief that is contradicted by reality.
Thu Oct 3, 2019, 02:59 PM
Oct 2019

The earth is demonstrably and provably spherical. Any claim that the earth is flat is obviously delusional.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
12. Your own faith has certain tenets about the nature of your god does it not?
Thu Oct 3, 2019, 03:16 PM
Oct 2019

Can you please list 5-10 bullet points about the nature of your god?

Because I guarantee your faith is in some way, mututally exclusive of the tenets of another faith. If they don't align, and both make truth claims about their god, (including mono vs. polytheism) one is factually wrong. If one has faith in a factually wrong tenet of their religion, would that not be defacto delusional? How would it be different from people who believe the earth is flat because certain text of the bible could be interpreted through a certain fundamentalist lens to claim it must be?

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
20. My own faith, and any faith, does not rely on proof.
Fri Oct 4, 2019, 05:17 PM
Oct 2019

Faith implies belief without proof.

Delusion in faith would be stating that my personal belief is correct, and that all others are incorrect.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
22. Again, your faith(TM) or religion makes truth claims about the nature of your god(s), correct?
Fri Oct 4, 2019, 06:59 PM
Oct 2019

One doesn't need proof. One can simply observe any two religions making mutually exclusive truth claims, for us to know ONE of these maybe un-testable claims is fat out untrue.

Continued belief in something that is factually untrue, is what? (I would strongly consider the adjective 'delusional' in that scenario.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
23. These claims are essentially hypotheses about the nature of the Creator.
Fri Oct 4, 2019, 07:30 PM
Oct 2019

And as such, they represent an attempt to understand the Creator.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
25. That is not how they are presented by the humans that advocate for them.
Mon Oct 7, 2019, 10:47 AM
Oct 2019

If they were presented as a hypothesis, the world would be much better for it.

NeoGreen

(4,030 posts)
26. Wait a minute, how are we supposed to recify...
Mon Oct 7, 2019, 11:26 AM
Oct 2019

...the following 2 statements?

My own faith, and any faith, does not rely on proof.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/1218319094#post20

and
These claims are essentially hypotheses about the nature of the Creator.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/1218319094#post23


When a hypothesis is:
a tentative assumption made in order to draw out and test its logical or empirical consequences


Underlines added.


These statements seem like nothing more than rhetorical circles.

Edit to add:

Maybe a little:

NeoGreen

(4,030 posts)
13. How does one differentiate your definition of delusion from...
Thu Oct 3, 2019, 03:22 PM
Oct 2019

...someone who may hold an idea as true but is simply ignorant?

I.e., what is the difference between a point of view derived from delusion versus ignorance?

uriel1972

(4,261 posts)
16. I guess a delusion would be...
Fri Oct 4, 2019, 02:04 AM
Oct 2019

something you believe when there is no evidence on hand to believe it or contrary evidence that exists against it.
Sorry, by that definition religion is delusional, can't help it.

NeoGreen

(4,030 posts)
24. Dialog isn't a mere tit for tat...
Mon Oct 7, 2019, 09:15 AM
Oct 2019

...and it would be meaningless to respond to a thesis that isn't fully defined.

Your request for the a logical basis for the thesis you posted (i.e. the Original Question {OQ}):

i.e. Theism is delusional.


Is an interesting topic for discussion, but we need to agree on what is being discussed, in order to have meaningful dialog.

I asked for your definition of Delusional.

You replied with:
A belief that is contradicted by reality.
Example: The earth is demonstrably and provably spherical. Any claim that the earth is flat is obviously delusional.


Your definition largely comports with the Webster definition:

1a : something that is falsely or delusively believed or propagated

1b psychology : a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary.

2 : the act of tricking or deceiving someone : the state of being deluded …

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/delusion

I will slightly modify Webster's general definition, to avoid using the word or its root in the definition, to offer: A persistent belief that is falsely believed or propagated about one's self, other persons or objects outside the self.


Once we get these definitional questions/uncertainties cleared up, we can then systematically work our way to answering the OQ. Any demand that we jump ahead to a poorly evaluated response to the OQ before we clear up all definitional questions strongly suggests that that there is an agenda out there which is angling for a pre-planned or canned answer. I would like to avoid that if possible.

Let's work on an answer to your OQ together and reach an mutually agreeable conclusion, through honest dialog.

NeoGreen

(4,030 posts)
29. Just the complete opposite...
Wed Oct 9, 2019, 09:20 AM
Oct 2019

...I am wholly prepared to fully engage in a discussion/dialog in regards to the thesis you posted.

It is a normal part if dialog to ask for clarification on various points and definitions along the way.

"What do you mean by..." is a very common phrase in honest discussion, it should be expected and it does not necessarily follow a tit-for-tat format.

However, attempts to circumvent the process and demand a premature jump to the conclusion/answer or shut-down and claim any reluctance to prematurely jump to a conclusion/answer is a failure to engage in honest dialog is disingenuous and an indication of insincerity in regards to the desire to fully engage and fully examine a thesis.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
30. I provided a definition.
Wed Oct 9, 2019, 07:08 PM
Oct 2019

And this is not a legal forum. It is a discussion board. So if you cannot, or will not, provide a rationale for the idea that theism is delusion, I understand.

If your thesis is that theism=delusion, it is your responsibility to support the thesis.

NeoGreen

(4,030 posts)
31. You know, you really are tedious, you claim you want dialog...
Thu Oct 10, 2019, 09:03 AM
Oct 2019

...but then you sabotage any serious attempt to do so.

It's almost as if you are engaging in some grande piece of 'Performance Art', but it really only comes across as a series of minor tantrums.

I honestly wanted to discuss the thesis you posted in #8, but you seem unwilling or unable to work through it.

So, feel free to post another tantrum, I'm done trying to have an honest discussion with you, I'm not sure you know what one is anyway.

Apparently, your 'faith' trumps everything.

Peace, dude.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
18. Do you believe Jesus Christ literally existed, was literally dead for 3 days (ok, a day and a half)
Fri Oct 4, 2019, 10:56 AM
Oct 2019

...and was literally raised from the dead, and literally ascended to heaven?

You never state exactly what your beliefs are, g. How convenient.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
27. Wait, whose position is that?
Mon Oct 7, 2019, 02:26 PM
Oct 2019

"Theism is delusional and can be proven such"

Who said that? Why are you declaring that others must defend it?

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
11. Think of it like an innoculation. It enables your immune system to recognize an invader.
Thu Oct 3, 2019, 03:10 PM
Oct 2019

That doesn't mean you're immune. You're never immune. Your immune system still needs to do the work of killing the invader, and it can be weakened by many factors, leaving you susceptible to the invader, despite the inoculation.


Similarly a "Wanted" poster doesn't catch an outlaw. It enables you to recognize the outlaw and attempt to catch them.
It is a non sequitur for you to assume/demand anyone explicitly claim to be immune to any of these.


Forewarned is Forearmed does not mean you don't have to fight. It just gives you a chance of having initiative.
In fact, your non-sequitur is quite the opposite of reality if you think carefully about D-K effect. The more we know about these fallacies, the more we know we are capable of committing them, and to be actively vigilant. It doesn't mean we're immune.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
19. An excellent answer.
Fri Oct 4, 2019, 05:13 PM
Oct 2019

And because none of us is immune, we should have care when making blanket statements.

Igel

(35,191 posts)
15. Media hostility bias.
Thu Oct 3, 2019, 05:47 PM
Oct 2019

You can show the same article to both right and left, taking pains to make it neutral, and both will find that it's hostile.

It's sort of like a presumption that if it's not obviously for you (and feeding your confirmation bias) it must be against you.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
17. Whoa boy, here are my cardinal sins:
Fri Oct 4, 2019, 09:08 AM
Oct 2019

Pessimism, negativity bias, curse of knowledge, bystander effect, fundamental attribution error, framing effect, and confirmation bias.

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