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Mon Mar 2, 2020, 08:19 AM

Hitler's Pope

This should be interesting. Kudos to Frank for lifting the curtain.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/01/unsealing-vatican-archive-reveal-hitler-truth-pope-pius-xii

New light will be shed on one of the most controversial periods of Vatican history on Monday when the archives on Pope Pius XII – accused by critics of being a Nazi sympathiser – are unsealed.

A year after Pope Francis announced the move, saying “the church isn’t afraid of history”, the documents from Pius XII’s papacy, which began in 1939 on the brink of the second world war and ended in 1958, will be opened, initially to a small number of scholars.
. . .

“On the big question, it’s clear: Pius XII never publicly criticised the Nazis for the mass murder they were committing of the Jews of Europe – and he knew from the very beginning that mass murder was taking place. Various clerics and others were pressing him to speak out, and he declined to do so.
. . .

In December 1942, Pius XII spoke out in general terms about the suffering of the Jews, although he had known for several months about the Nazi extermination plans. In 1943, he wrote to the bishop of Berlin, arguing that the church could not publicly condemn the Holocaust for fear of causing “greater evils”.
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I'm trying to think of a greater evil than the Holocaust.

9 replies, 816 views

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Arrow 9 replies Author Time Post
Reply Hitler's Pope (Original post)
Cartoonist Mar 2 OP
vlyons Mar 2 #1
Cartoonist Mar 2 #2
unblock Mar 2 #3
Cartoonist Mar 2 #4
unblock Mar 2 #5
lark Mar 2 #6
Act_of_Reparation Mar 2 #7
Cartoonist Mar 2 #8
Act_of_Reparation Mar 2 #9

Response to Cartoonist (Original post)

Mon Mar 2, 2020, 08:26 AM

1. War is the greater evil

The haulocaust was the industrialization of genocide.

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Response to vlyons (Reply #1)

Mon Mar 2, 2020, 08:32 AM

2. I disagree

War is bad, but genocide is pure evil.

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Response to vlyons (Reply #1)

Mon Mar 2, 2020, 08:39 AM

3. Even if war were a greater evil than the holocaust,

World War II was already well underway by 1943.

What *further* evil was he worried about?

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Response to unblock (Reply #3)

Mon Mar 2, 2020, 08:48 AM

4. Communism

That was the Church's greatest fear. Commies were atheists.

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Response to Cartoonist (Reply #4)

Mon Mar 2, 2020, 10:41 AM

5. Wonderful. Certainly justifies effectively condoning the murder of millions of innocents



Personally, I'm not sure the pope's reluctance was purely ideological. I can't imagine the Vatican wasn't threatened and/or rewarded for playing along with hitler.

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Response to Cartoonist (Reply #4)

Mon Mar 2, 2020, 10:45 AM

6. Cant you see Evangelicals doing the same here?

Refusing to acknowledge the worst of the drumpf offenses even while their parishioners are dying because of the incompetence of the drumpf cabal in ensuring an appropriate response to a possible pandemic? Just like they tolerate the caging and killing of small children because "illegals", they will also condone assmouths' response to COVID-19.

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Response to Cartoonist (Reply #4)

Mon Mar 2, 2020, 02:30 PM

7. I would argue it was democratic government, broadly.

Virtually every government in Europe and North America was as opposed to communism as the Axis powers. I think the Church sided with Hitler and Mussolini because the Church had long favored authoritarianism over liberal democracy, and saw in fascism the opportunity to fend off secularism and reassert its authority.

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #7)

Mon Mar 2, 2020, 03:17 PM

8. Germany was different

There were three main parties, the Nazis (who called themselves socialists, but weren't), the Socialist Democrats, and the Communists. Only the Nazis were theists, so the church sided with them.

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Response to Cartoonist (Reply #8)

Mon Mar 2, 2020, 03:25 PM

9. That's my point.

It had more to do with traditional church politics than communism. Social Democrats were also opposed to communism, but they didn't have a role for the Church in their style of government.

And being totally honest, I think the Church kind of sided with the Nazis by default. They'd already backed Mussolini and Franco; they really couldn't have backed anyone else in Germany but Franco's and Mussolini's allies/analogs.

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