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Sun Sep 16, 2012, 03:26 AM

 

Which occupation best controls malpractice?

Some professions remain largely self-regulating:

The Constitution expressly grants a right to the services of only one of these professions

2 votes, 1 pass | Time left: Unlimited
Doctors
1 (50%)
Lawyers
1 (50%)
Clergy
0 (0%)
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Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

25 replies, 3156 views

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Arrow 25 replies Author Time Post
Reply Which occupation best controls malpractice? (Original post)
jberryhill Sep 2012 OP
JDPriestly Sep 2012 #1
jberryhill Sep 2012 #3
JDPriestly Sep 2012 #10
jberryhill Sep 2012 #11
cbayer Sep 2012 #15
JDPriestly Sep 2012 #25
edhopper Sep 2012 #2
jberryhill Sep 2012 #4
edhopper Sep 2012 #6
jberryhill Sep 2012 #12
edhopper Sep 2012 #14
dimbear Sep 2012 #5
Leontius Sep 2012 #7
dimbear Sep 2012 #8
cbayer Sep 2012 #9
jberryhill Sep 2012 #13
cbayer Sep 2012 #16
jberryhill Sep 2012 #17
cbayer Sep 2012 #18
jberryhill Sep 2012 #21
cbayer Sep 2012 #23
Fortinbras Armstrong Sep 2012 #19
cbayer Sep 2012 #20
jberryhill Sep 2012 #22
cbayer Sep 2012 #24

Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 07:21 AM

1. The government insures the right to exercise your religion.

It insures your right to a lawyer only if you are a qualified person accused in a criminal trial.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #1)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 02:20 PM

3. The government is not required to supply you a priest, though

 

But will supply you a lawyer.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #3)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 11:14 PM

10. You only get a lawyer in certain kinds of cases.

You are, for example, not guaranteed a lawyer when you divorce or if you are sued.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #10)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 11:51 PM

11. Yes I understand that

 

The point being, there are circumstances, written into the Comstitution, guaranteeing a right to the services of a lawyer.

There are no circumstances under which the Constitution guarantees the government to furnish you with a clergyman or a doctor.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #11)

Mon Sep 17, 2012, 09:14 AM

15. While not constitutional, you are guaranteed a physician if you visit an ER - EMTALA law.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #11)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 01:48 PM

25. But the First Amendment entitles you to freedom of religion which means it guarantees you the

right to have access to a pastor of your choice. Of course, the pastor has to be willing to serve as your pastor and may need money in exchange for that. But there are lay pastors who volunteer. You aren't guaranteed that the pastor will serve you, but you are guaranteed that you can have any pastor you want who will serve you.

Therefore I would say you have the right to a pastor.

You do not always have the right to be represented by a lawyer in court. For example, in the small claims courts where I live, litigants may not be represented by a lawyer with, perhaps, the exception of corporations.

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 08:05 AM

2. I am not sure what this post is trying to say?

For an atheist like myself, all clergy are just talking about made up stuff. I don't know where the malpractice comes in.
If we are talking about con artists who rip off their congregation, that is one thing, if we are talking about how they lead their church or temple or mosque, where does malpractice come in?

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Response to edhopper (Reply #2)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 02:22 PM

4. Sometimes a post is not trying to "say" but to "ask"

 

Law is "made up stuff" too.

Is there, or can there be, clerical malpractice?

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #4)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 07:42 PM

6. If you could define what you think clerical malpractice would be

I'll let you know if I think it can be.

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Response to edhopper (Reply #6)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 11:55 PM

12. One easy target

 

Would be those circumstances in which they were acting as an unlicensed psychological counselor, and holding them to the same standard of competence.

They could avoid liability by, for example, an affirmative duty to advise patients that they should consider the services of a licensed therapist.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #12)

Mon Sep 17, 2012, 08:18 AM

14. I can see that

especially those (and there are more than we would care to admit0 who blame it on devils or demons.

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 05:25 PM

5. Probably doctors, since the results of their errors are often immediate and fatal.

Lawyers and clergy are often insulated by the passage of decades while their clients rot in cells or quietly ponder suicide.

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Response to dimbear (Reply #5)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 07:54 PM

7. Most of the malpractice cases against doctors happen to a few with

 

multiple cases and they are rarely stopped from practicing by the licensing boards.

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Response to Leontius (Reply #7)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 08:00 PM

8. Agreed. Certain specialties are very vulnerable. Obstetrics, for instance.

Also varies a lot by geographical area as to how closely MDs are regulated.

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Response to Leontius (Reply #7)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 08:34 PM

9. Many suits are frivolous and getting sued is not a meaningful marker of one's practice.

Those that choose high risk practices are more likely to get sued, while those that take the safe routes are less likely.

Boards do revoke or suspend licensees all the time. Just look at any Board's newsletter and you can see the long list of those who have gotten into trouble.

While I think the self-policing of medicine is faulty and it is better done in some states than others, I think it is pretty effective. Hospital privileging committees are also effective in most cases.

At any rate, board actions against physicians are not rare.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #9)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 11:57 PM

13. I'd like to see relative rates between doctors and lawyers

 


I may be biased, but it seems much easier to be disbarred than to lose a medical license.

That could just be my perception, though.

But getting defrocked? Hardly ever.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #13)

Mon Sep 17, 2012, 09:17 AM

16. I think it might behoove you to do some actual research and bring the data back

if you want to seriously discuss this.

Are you basing your "getting defrocked" statement on a hunch? data? assumption?

You say you don't know the actual numbers for doctors and lawyers, so I question whether you know them for clergy.

Or did you set this up with a preconceived conclusion?

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Response to cbayer (Reply #16)

Mon Sep 17, 2012, 10:03 AM

17. I think if you honestly read what I wrote

 

Then it might occur to you that what I means by "I'd like to see" is that I do not know, and suggested "I'd like to see" as both an admission that I do not know, in the hope that perhaps someone else might.

If this type of a conversational device is unfamiliar to you, let's try an example:

Person 1 "I'd like to know the capital of New Hampshire. I could be wrong, but I'd guess it is Montplelier."

Person 2: "You should really find out the capital of New Hampshire before posting ."


In that example, Person 2 is chastising Person 1 for not having the correct answer when, in context, what Person 1 was doing was stating they did not know the capital of New Hampshire, and proposing a guess.

Person 1's statement is intended to invite discussion of what may or may not be the capital of New Hampshire, and most certainly cannot be understood as any kind of definite statement asserting its identity.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #17)

Mon Sep 17, 2012, 10:17 AM

18. But this is a poll on what others assume and not really a request for data.

All I can figure is that you put it in this group because you had already assumed the answer (lawyers better than doctors better than clergy) and you wanted some kind of support for that.

At any rate, no one appears to know, though I am sure the data is out there somewhere.

Good luck with your quest.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #18)

Mon Sep 17, 2012, 12:06 PM

21. Naw, I really don't know...

 


And what the rates mean in terms of "better" is a tossup.

If a higher percentage of lawyers are disbarred than doctors de-licensed, then I still wouldn't know what it means in terms of effectiveness of enforcement. Maybe fewer doctors are incompetent in the first place. That wouldn't surprise me either.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #21)

Mon Sep 17, 2012, 01:13 PM

23. As it is most likely an apples to oranges to pineapples comparison, it may not

be possible to make any valid comparison.

I don't know about lawyers, but sanctioned physicians often have many options open to them. Those that have developed issues with substance abuse can, and often are, routed into treatment programs and longer term monitoring programs. Those who are simply incompetent in some area may have the opportunity for retraining and supervision.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #17)

Mon Sep 17, 2012, 10:33 AM

19. Similarly, I get really annoyed when I raise a question or a point

And people respond to my post, but do not respond to my question or my point. This has happened to me twice on DU. What makes it particularly infuriating is that each time someone has said that they have answered me, while in fact they have not.

For medical malpractice statistics in Washington State, see the 2011 Medical Malpractice Annual Report. I had trouble finding national figures, the National Bureau of Economic Research, which I would have thought would be useful, is not.

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Response to Fortinbras Armstrong (Reply #19)

Mon Sep 17, 2012, 10:54 AM

20. Each state separately oversees it's medical licensure program, so it may be very hard

to get cumulative data.

Does the ABA oversee lawyers in all states?

And there is no equivalent for either method among the clergy. You can get a *license* to be a *minister* on line for $50. It is, of course, entirely bogus.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #20)

Mon Sep 17, 2012, 12:07 PM

22. You could look at clergy two ways

 


1. Incidence of denomination-affiliated clergy being drummed out of their denomination, or

2. Incidence of them being arrested snorting blow off of a hooker's backside in hotel raids.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #22)

Mon Sep 17, 2012, 01:16 PM

24. I think there is a lot of area in between those two.

Abuse of power being one and mishandling of finances another. Are there denominations that provide remedial options for those that stray? Some do, some don't, I would suppose.

The Catholic church did an abysmal job of identifying, treating and/or dismissing those who were committing heinous acts while wearing the cloth, but I don't know about other denominations.

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