What happens when a belief incorporates fact

[Laochtine]

Does the religion become unbelievable or just evolving with the times?

[tama]

1. How do you distinguish

between beliefs and facts?

[mr blur]

3. How do you distinguish between evidence and fantasy? Yes that's a tough one.

[tama]

4. Indeed nt

[Laochtine]

6. I tend towards

The world is round, Earthlings revolve around the Sun, stuff like that.

[tama]

13. Snark?

It's age old basic philosophical question. How would you answer a child asking that same question?

[Laochtine]

18. MY child or a random child:)

I'd go with the facts, horrible as it might seem.

[tama]

22. Hmm

That sounds like you believe you already know the facts, and how to separate them from beliefs. But that was not the question, but how you distinguish between beliefs and facts.

[Laochtine]

36. Nope just reality as it

Evolves, pretty special. I distinguish road construction from fantasy, people might die

[tama]

38. I agree evolution is pretty special

the little we know of it and all we may learn. If this globalized technocratic civilization doesn't delete itself and rest of humanity from continuing participating. Or if only Amish, some natives and bunch of neotribal hippies would turn out to follow adaptive ways of life, would you consider that some kind of fail, from your progressive point of view?

[Laochtine]

41. No I'd like to think that is a win

I never said I wasn't strange

[rug]

2. A more complete truth.

[Laochtine]

8. Was the religion

incomplete?

[rug]

9. Any religion which proposes to teach about God cannot possibly contain God.

Let alone creation.

[Laochtine]

12. So god goes to the truth

Because it was to hard to explain in the book? Why would god not update us when the truth can be observered?

[tama]

15. When?

What is the relation of truth and time, in your view?

[Laochtine]

29. None

Truth is the working theories that actually bring us forward.
They might be replaced by better (truth) as we as a species gather more knowledge.
I guess I refuse to stay stuck in the past, the present and future is so alluring.

[tama]

32. None?

But you just gave quite detailed time relative definition of truth, stating, if I understood correctly, that truths of present (and past) are valued from some future position and potential better truth. That sounds like ethically based and teleological (purpose oriented) criterion for truth.

Would you classify ethical and teleological criteria as "believes" or "facts", if those were the two choices given?

[Laochtine]

37. You got me

Your god is supreme I have to follow her

[tama]

39. No need

but any case, thanks for making that imagined imaginary friend feminine.

[Laochtine]

42. I'm just a guy :)

[rug]

16. That doesn't follow in the least.

[Laochtine]

20. I think a carring god

Would come back every few centuries to clarify the things he/she got wrong.
Of course that's why I can't believe

[rug]

21. Where do you think he went?

[Laochtine]

30. out of our need

We are our brothers keepers. IMO

[cbayer]

5. Can you give an example, because I have no idea what you are talking about.

[Laochtine]

7. Slavery

Good in the Bible not so good to slaves. Women should be subservient, not so great for women. As a society and a world we've outgrown (hopefully) certain customs. Does that make the religion questionable to you? or do you just let it go?

[cbayer]

10. Oh, I see what you are doing here.

I support religious and non-religious groups that further causes that I care about. I'm not a literalist nor do I find literalists to be very helpful.

What I do think is that the bible has to be read in terms of cultural context and as primarily allegorical.

So the change in cultural standards, which I guess is what you refer to as fact, doesn't really change my views on the good (and bad) things that religion can and has done.

[skepticscott]

11. "Primarily allegorical"?

What specifically does that mean, if not "read as allegorical when to read it literally would be an embarrassment, and only read as literal when it suits me"? Or "I'm going to cherry pick what's allegorical and what's literal, but don't try to pin me down on what's literal, because I'll never answer"?

And if "god" actually said any of the words attributed to him in the Bible, why do the literal words of an eternal "god" need "cultural context"? And if "god" didn't actually say ANY of the words attributed to him in the Bible, then what are Judaism and Christianity but purely human inventions?

[Laochtine]

14. It's not only cultural, but science.

I am trying to get rid of belief in the best of ways, by thinking.

(I support religious and non-religious groups that further causes that I care about.)
So do I. I have a soft spot for humanity

[cbayer]

17. Lol. Try as you might, I doubt thinking will rid you of all your beliefs,

whether they be religious or not. Some things one just has to take on faith (like my husband loves me).

And I'm not all that keen on robbing people of their beliefs, particularly if those beliefs lead them to good deeds. That's part of my soft spot for humanity.

[Laochtine]

19. Is it faith when you wake together, no

It's truth, pretty simple

I rob not, they will do what they feel, fear shouldn't blacken a good deed. Knowledge is the enlightener and wine of course lol

[cbayer]

23. No, it's faith that when I go to sleep, he will be there when I wake up.

If he is there, then that's a fact.

I have faith that when we make a crossing we will get where we are headed. Once we get there, it's a fact, but no until then. But I believe that my boat can take anything and my captain will make the right decisions.

Nothing wrong with that, imo. If I go just with thinking, I will think about all the things that can go wrong.

[tama]

25. Interesting

So "faith/belief" is something related to future (or past), "fact" is what can be sensed here and now?

[cbayer]

26. I don't think I would make that generalization, but I can see how faith

does have a lot to do with the future. I'm having trouble finding an example of how faith would apply to the present.

Belief on the other hand, I can. Although my understanding of cosmology is limited, I believe that those who propose the theories or explanations know what they are talking about.

At any rate, I don't really think about these things much. I'm a kind of roll with the punches type of person. I don't think I can absolutely control what will happen, but I like to think I can take on whatever might be thrown my way.

Nice talking to you, but I have to go now.

[trotsky]

28. But that's not the same as religious faith.

That is confidence in a particular result because you've experienced it before. Many times. Equivocation is never a valid form of argumentation. I'm surprised you don't understand this.

[Laochtine]

31. The sun will come up tomorrow

If that is faith I have it. from a life time of evidence.
I'd hope your thoughts would prepare you for the worst and secure your passage.

[tama]

24. Let's think about that.

Are believes some sorts of thoughts? If you think and/or believe so, wouldn't best way to get rid of belief be to stop thinking, to silence mind so that no thoughts arise at all and you are in state of complete non-belief? Wouldn't that be the rational conclusion?

[Laochtine]

33. In my small head

Thoughts trickle in an out, if you feel the need for make believe to make you a better person I say keep it

[tama]

35. Pretty much same in this little head.

Sorry if you feel like getting a noob treatment, didn't mean to put you down. Well maybe just a little, but I'll try to keep on bettering my ways. I take this religion group as best DU substitute for philosophy group, in good and bad.

[Laochtine]

40. Ty Tama

I'll war tomorrow The flu has beat me, I look forward to you bettering your ways

[ZombieHorde]

46. If I was a Christian, I don't I would be very concerned about what was true or false in the

Christian Holy Bible. I think I would try to figure out how Jesus Christ wanted me to live my life.

For example, JC says we should sell all of our belongings and give the money to the poor. I don't think I would try to figure out if this meant I couldn't own anything. Instead, I would ask myself, "what else could I do to help those in need?"

At least I think that is what I would do.

[cbayer]

47. I think a lot of people, even people who don't consider themselves christian,

do what you describe. Whether they call it christian, their conscience, their ethical code or their morality, I think most people try to do what they feel is the right think.

We watched a documentary called "Happy" last night - very interesting. Things like compassion and taking care of others were described as intrinsic triggers of the greatest happiness while extrinsic triggers (things, status, power) are very weak.

And I think the bottom line is that most people would continue to live like that, whether their religious or non-religious beliefs changed based on experience or evidence.

[ZombieHorde]

48. I think so too. nt

[Moonwalk]

27. Religions have certainly done this--saying that evolution is true, but god set it in motion...

...for example. And yes, they are evolving with the times. Why would something that is based on faith anyway become more or less believable if it incorporated a fact?

The only time it becomes less believable is if it start to erase the "facts" that people want to believe in. Like Jesus being the son of god and coming back from the dead, etc. Schisms indicate quite adequately what happens to religions that erase "facts" that people want to believe in vs. facts that adjust the religion to suit the culture/times.

[Laochtine]

34. All those facts are sketchy

I understand the religious need to morph, Christianity stole everything

[Moonwalk]

43. Granted. And you're quite right that I put it wrong. What I should have said was that...

...real facts, based on science and such, won't undermine anyone's belief in a religion so long as those facts don't undermine the "non-facts" that they want to believe in. Like, for example, believing in evolution so long as that doesn't erase a belief that god exists and set evolution in motion. If evolution does threaten that belief in god, then it will be rejected--or the person, unable to reconcile such facts with his/her belief system will give up on religion.

Likewise, someone might, given factual information on slavery, reject the Bible's assurance that slavery is okay, so long as it doesn't undermine their belief that Jesus was the son of god, etc.

[Laochtine]

44. I find it funny

That to believe in things you Know aren't true you lie to yourself (collectively),
I can only hope cognitive dissidence will fade away

[Moonwalk]

45. It's certainly funny, but entirely human and we all do it. It's one of those great tricks...

...the human brain has always been able to play on itself. Recognize and see the facts, yet believe otherwise. And evolutionarily speaking, it's a good thing as it keeps us living life as if we're immortal even though we know we're going to die--could die at any moment from just about any random act or accident.

I mean, think about that: We are animals who know we are going to die. Knowing that fact, how would we survive each day unafraid of dying if we weren't able to trick ourselves into a belief that we were going to live on? How could we have come out of those caves, risked getting killed by hungry predators or disease or storms, if we hadn't been able to pretend that we would not be hurt or die?

It's unfortunate that this evolutionary trick means that we also lie to ourselves about any fact we don't like or want to recognize--or any fact that goes contrary to what we want to believe is true--but, alas, evolution isn't picky. If it helps us survive, then it continues on, no matter what other problems it causes. So, I doubt that the cognitive dissonance will vanish any time soon. The way our brains work will have to alter a bit first.

[Laochtine]

49. A very good point

I hadn't thought of it in such a way. Thank you
I had a coworker that needed a god to be good, I was kind of glad he had one.

I guess I'd fear the process of a cruel death more then death itself.
I'd like to feed a Live Oak or Yellowtails. They've fed me enough