Religion
Related: About this forumThis Question will Assume That There is a God
Why did your god create the universe??
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,587 posts)like a kid with an aquarium or an ant farm.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)You are making two assumptions
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)I will ponder that
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)Could a consciousness evolve within the cosmos? I don't know. Could it be omnipotent? Absolutely not. Maybe it could whisper to us though....and maybe those whispers could have influenced evolution, by giving better listeners an edge. Probably not though
BTW, that type of a "God" may not of been able to conceive of a God until a species existed (that it could sense) that conceived of any such consciousness as being a deity in the first place. In that sense, perhaps man created God by giving identity to a cosmic, collective consciousness (and maybe we all share, or are a part of, that consciousness). Maybe not.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)everything influences evolution
tama
(9,137 posts)according to your second paragraph, can be understood as consciousness able to experience all possible experiences. "Omnipotent" is often and IMHO mistakenly understood and "king of kings", authoritarian power, instead of potential of all possible worlds to actualize.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)I've never been introduced to any other notion of omnipotence than that of an all-powerful being that can move mountains and split waters.
Recently I was randomly interrupted with a notion of some type of evolved cosmic consciousness that we all are sort of unique individual "incarnations" of, and to which we collective contribute in the form of experience. So I asked, what is the "purpose" of our life if that is at all possible? Well, assuming the being has been able to express its preferences to influence what came, we must assume we are a result of such preference, so something we must do--and allow it to experience--is preferred. In contrast to the past casual harmony of the universe, we humans bring irrationality, and beauty through our irrationality. We bring continuity of stories, motifs, and themes. No longer is this consciousness filled with blots of patterned color from the systematic game of the universe, but from deep strokes of contrasting arrays of light that lead into more strokes carried through our generations. We paint the canvas of life, through our pain and our love, with amazing complexity that grows exponentially. Perhaps our sole purpose is to merely craft interesting and beautiful stories that the consciousness will experience. We are to bring color to a casual world, and art to blots. We have been whispered to, and pushed, until we have become beings capable of delivering all shades and strokes to a drab world. And no matter who we are, or what we do, we are all still part of that story and contributing in our own beautiful way (presuming of course the consciousness is in any way connected to other living life and has an influence of it).
And in that sense, what if such a cosmic consciousness is revolting from the universe? A rejection of the game and its simple pattern dots, as well as its casual harmony. What if that which humans refer to as God is merely a evolved consciousness that is leading its own battle against order and a creation & existence beyond its control? This God may merely be cultivating and exploiting existence itself, and life, for its own edification.
But then again, I think its rather more likely I'm losing my mind. So the cult will have to wait till next year.
tama
(9,137 posts)Aristotelian etc. philosophy talks about potentiality and actuality, physics talks about quantum potential, and us men folks have special meaning for potency that our dearest friends and companions appreciate, at least occasionally, when we surpass our physical boundaries and unite in border zones.
Your second paragraph is very beautiful. I have a friend, a theoretical physicist, who had many years ago a long lasting special experience. During that experience he had interesting discussion with what he calls "Lonely God". If God has no other gods to communicate with, I imagine that it can compensate by having very rich inner life and imagination...
And how does telling each other beautiful stories turn into competition of what stories to believe and what not? Do we need to really believe any stories in order to enjoy them, and to learn what they can teach? We hear our first beautiful stories from our parents, and when we unite out potentials into border zones and become parents and put our children to sleep, we tell them beautiful stories.
We like horror stories, but perhaps we like happy endings and never ending stories even better. Also science is a story, or many stories of explanations with strong predictive power which we call theories. And what stories do we tell with those explanations and their predictive power? What I would like to see is less horror stories and more stories of extending love between parent and child to all our relations. So that science would not be only search for theory of all, but also become a story of people, a way of life.
unblock
(52,116 posts)it's just divine natural selection at work.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)please explain why there is no 'why'
unblock
(52,116 posts)Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)evolution happens
I asked why god created the universe
Are you saying the universe exists because it evolved??
unblock
(52,116 posts)Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)Why is there no 'why' was my question to you
Here is something for you to think about
If the universe is still expanding what is it expanding in??
tama
(9,137 posts)the tortoise on this island are bit different from that island. His theory of evolution was answer to that question. Of "why" are there such and such phenomena and "how" they happen.
Deification of evolution can be seen by comparing your sentence to "There is no "why" to God. God just is."
patrice
(47,992 posts)If there MUST be some human perception of something that might not even be a real question, what's the matter with, TTE, "The universe is it's own purpose/reason, it's own justification. The universe was/is created to be the universe."
DryRain
(237 posts)the creation of the universer is without that "Anthro" reason thing....purely chance?
Yeah.......the Bible wil back you up on this, right? We are all here by chance?
Don't reemember that in any Christian or Jewish Bible I ever read, or any sermon in a church I ever heard
Care to fill us in where reason is not needed for religions to talk about it all this time?
And, please, just try to make sense with one of your posts here, I'm sort of getting tired of your posts that don't make much sense, and I'm sure a hundred other readers feel the same. You do have a way of making some absurd assumptions without much logic and no facts behind most of them, just observing here. Not insulting, just observing!
Response to DryRain (Reply #6)
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Response to Post removed (Reply #8)
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Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)We are just words on a page, lines of code in a video game.
We have pretend consciousness. Those who doubt the existence in God were made that way, as were the non-believers and religious fanatics. We don't make scientific discoveries; the page is simply turned, another version released.
patrice
(47,992 posts)would have nothing to say about it one way or the other, because they'd be discussing something that they claim doesn't exist. & that would be kind of non-rational, wouldn't you say?
DryRain
(237 posts)Whenever questions in epistimology come up, you seem to have the ultimate cop-out
One has to admire peope who can do that at will, and are so willing toanswer simple questions, but the hard ones, they just rationalize away.
Why is the sky blue?
Why is water wet?
Easy to answer!
Why is there a god if random acts of destruction happen on this planet?
No answer, just make stuff up. Fine!
We, at least, know who the folks who defend the concept of a god are, (with no reservation nor evidence). this forum is qute revealing
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)The short Catholic answer was succinctly stated in the old Baltimore Catechism.
God made us to show forth His goodness and to share with us His everlasting happiness in heaven.
Eye has not seen nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man, what things God has prepared for those who love him. ( I Corinthians 2 : 9 )
A somewhat longer answer concerns the nature of God, Deus est Caritas. The nature of God is a loving one and he chose to create human beings to share in that nature. You, of course, are free to take it or leave it.
This hymn sung on Maundy Thursday captures it.
Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
Congregavit nos in unum Christi amor.
Exsultemus, et in ipso jucundemur.
Timeamus, et amemus Deum vivum.
Et ex corde diligamus nos sincero
.
Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
Simul ergo cum in unum congregamur:
Ne nos mente dividamur, caveamus.
Cessent iurgia maligna, cessent lites.
Et in medio nostri sit Christus Deus.
Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
Simul quoque cum beatis videamus,
Glorianter vultum tuum, Christe Deus:
Gaudium quod est immensum, atque probum,
Saecula per infinita saeculorum. Amen.
Where charity and love are, God is there.
Christ's love has gathered us into one.
Let us rejoice and be pleased in Him.
Let us fear, and let us love the living God.
And may we love each other with a sincere heart.
Where charity and love are, God is there.
As we are gathered into one body,
Beware, lest we be divided in mind.
Let evil impulses stop, let controversy cease,
And may Christ our God be in our midst.
Where charity and love are, God is there.
And may we with the saints also,
See Thy face in glory, O Christ our God:
The joy that is immense and good,
Unto the ages through infinite ages. Amen.
Now I have a question for you. This question will assume the above is true. Why would you not want that?
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)What is Goodness, if not simply that which is according to God's will? Isn't Goodness just what God wants then and not really applicable to any human conception of "good"? So God created to show what is according to God's will to who or what (that was already in existence to observe such Goodness I would presume).
rug
(82,333 posts)And assuming God is good, than the will of God is Goodness.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)No, something is Good because it is according to His will. Things are not according to His will because they are "good" (which would imply an absolute standard or truth in morality not determined by God himself).
God being Good is meaningless and Arbitrary. It means God agrees with that which God does.
rug
(82,333 posts)Sometimes it's called Grace.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)which is very different from the god of the Old Testament
The god of the Old Testament created the universe and was a very mean and vengeful god
The Christ of the New Testament is a loving god and offers salvation
Two very different gods
Are you saying Christ created the universe
The son is not the father
Much in the same way you are not your father
There is nothing wrong with having a loving and caring god
however what I see being taught in many churches is not what the hymn promotes
rug
(82,333 posts)The God of the OT is the God of the NT. That is the Trintarian formula. I'm not a Biblical scholar but I believe the attributes given to God are the human projections of the writers.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)'I'm not a Biblical scholar but I believe the attributes given to God are the human projections of the writers.'
If that is the case then the Bible is just a bunch of words without any substance
tama
(9,137 posts)But I believe that the holy trinity of love between parent and child and holy spirit of extending that love to all sentient beings is meaningful and useful human projection.
There is a similar Buddhist meditation based on idea of reincarnation, in which you meditate that all sentient beings have been your mother in some other life.
rug
(82,333 posts)Since you drew a distinction between the OT and the NT you brought the Trinity into it.
Your last sentence doesn't follow in the least.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)I learned that there were 3 gods, not one that could change its personality
Otherwise you just have a god pretzel your way
rug
(82,333 posts)If you think the Trinity is about three gods, you weren't paying attention.
Maybe you should lay off the pretzels.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)What you believe or disbelieve is of no consequence to me.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost
Now what were you taught??
rug
(82,333 posts)It is three persons in one God: God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghos , not three gods. The phrase used is hypostasis.
The Trinity is considered to be a mystery of Christian faith.[6] According to this doctrine, there is only one God in three persons. Each person is God, whole and entire. They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: as the Fourth Lateran Council declared, "it is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds". While distinct in their relations with one another, they are one in all else. The whole work of creation and grace is a single operation common to all three divine persons, who at the same time operate according to their unique properties, so that all things are from the Father, through the Son and in the Holy Spirit.[6] The three persons are co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial.
Trinitarianism (one deity in three persons) contrasts with nontrinitarian positions which include Binitarianism (one deity in two persons, or two deities), Unitarianism (one deity in one person, analogous to Jewish interpretation of the Shema and Muslim belief in Tawhid), Oneness Pentecostalism or Modalism (one deity manifested in three separate aspects), and social trinitarianism (three persons united by mutual love and accord).The Christian doctrine of the Trinity defines God as three divine persons or hypostases:[1] the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. The three persons are distinct, yet are one "substance, essence or nature".[2] A nature is what one is, while a person is who one is.[3][4][5][div]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)So you think I should have to believe what you believe??
As you said before you don't care what I believe, should that mean that I should not care about your beliefs?? Sounds very un-Christian of you
rug
(82,333 posts)Reading back to your post #44, it looks like you're describing modalism not the Trinity.
Besides, I thought you didn't care what I believed.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)I did not undersand anything ............
It sounds like you feel it is very important that all people taught religion neeed to understand everything about their religion and should be able to explain everything about their religion if they are asked.
rug
(82,333 posts)Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)No two Catholics, Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, etc. believe exactly the same way.
How can they give definitions that would perfectly match??
Religion is a very personal thing and so each one of us take different things away.
Can you name anyone that believes or understands your religion the same as you??
And if not, who is correct??
rug
(82,333 posts)There is a famous phrase, variously attributed to Augustine or the Lutheran Rupertus Meldinius: "In necessariis unitas, in non-necessariis (or, dubiis) libertas, in utrisque (or, omnibus) caritas." Translated: ""In essentials, unity; in doubtful matters, liberty; in all things, charity."
Religion is personal but, more so than spirituality, it is also a communal activity.
No one human thinks, acts, feels, believes or defecates precisely like another.
longship
(40,416 posts)Please, read about what begging the question actually means.
This is a classic example of that.
Presume the conclusion in the premise. Works every time, unless one knows logic.
Buh-Bye.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)tama
(9,137 posts)'Assuming a premise' is standard scientific practice. E.g. there's lot of math and physics petitio principii Rieman Hypothesis; assuming that RH holds and taking it as premise, even though it has not been formally proven.
Assuming a premise is standard operation in theory building, and comparative evaluation of theories, which is prerequisite for scientific ability to self-correct and change premises. It can be huge and mind boggingly complex operation in field as complex as whole of theoretical physics, when trying to identify the premise or premises that lead to problems between GR and QM instead of unified theory, and searching for premises that would allow to construct a unified theory.
Just out of curiosity I did a little search, and found this nugget saying that most basic axiom of science, petitio principii, is:
http://cgranade.blogspot.fi/2006/11/most-basic-premise.html
tblue
(16,350 posts)Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)Permanut
(5,561 posts)Deep13
(39,154 posts)الحمد لله
tama
(9,137 posts)The question "why is there something instead of nothing?" is ultimately same question as "is there something that cannot be doubted?"
And what cannot be doubted and denied, is experiencing.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)but just come out with your own question first
I have said before that I find that very rude
cbayer
(146,218 posts)What's wrong with that?
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)A force or forces created the universe.
No idea why that happened.
Some may call that a god or gods.
At this point in my life a prefer calling it a force or forces.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)which you, like me, have no answer.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)If one asks no questions then one never knows
I ask to get answers
I believe the same forces that created the universe exist in you and me
everything is connected
I am still having trouble wrapping my mind around the expansion of the universe into what .........
cbayer
(146,218 posts)both of others and ourselves.
Your answer about everything being connected is reasonable and shared by many. Sometimes the difference lies only in what people call this force.
tama
(9,137 posts)Cyclic universe could be perhaps bit easier to wrap mind around, "just" a 4D object, that could be compared to movie with beginning and end that you can rewind and watch both ways.
An idea which I like, is that "Big Bang" was not bang but a whisper growing and growing, and inside each universe there is whisper of universe growing, and that there is endless continuum of Russian doll universes. Like concentric rings on surface of lake when a stone is cast. What makes this idea scientific and possibly testable at some point, is for example possibility that dark matter could be the gravitational effect of other Russian doll universes that we can detect only at gravitational level.
In this case "wrapping mind around" could be not just a metaphor, but the relation of bigger Russian doll universe to smaller, and the holographic generalization of that idea into infinite continuum.
spin
(17,493 posts)Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)spin
(17,493 posts)bongbong
(5,436 posts)From the folks trying to buy their way to eternal life.
dimbear
(6,271 posts)Then ask yourself why farmers plant corn and why ranchers raise sheep.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)dimbear
(6,271 posts)Soul meunière.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)Iggo
(47,534 posts)Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)Do they deserve to be a god if they can not handle questions
Iggo
(47,534 posts)You don't question god.
So that's it. Game over.
(Re: catholic school...great school for the three R's, but philosophically it fucks with young minds.)
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)my best guess would be for the same reason(s) some people make art.
The desire to create, to self express, etc.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)Pyrzqxgl
(1,356 posts)In fact it may be some other God's mistake & my God (who might be related to that other God, who might be his crazy half brother) just because she's a nice lady might be sticking around to clean up the mess.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)Xipe Totec
(43,888 posts)then, somehow, the Universe was created.
And even the One does not know how.
Meshuga
(6,182 posts)...and how:
chervilant
(8,267 posts)by Christopher Hitchens proffers this provocative morsel from Epicurus:
Is he willing to prevent evil but not able? Then is he impotent. Is he able but not willing? Then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Eternity with no one to shoot the shit with?
Why do we blither and natter at each other the way we do here on DU and in this forum specifically?
Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people.
If you assume that God is a great mind then God will want to discuss ideas. Some humans are such obstinate beasts that they would happily argue with God until He cried u(U?)ncle. <flicks eyes at mirror> By no means do I assume we are alone in the universe and I suspect that any other race of sophonts is going to have some individuals just as pig headed and prone to disagreement as our own race does, God would want it that way and what God wants God gets.
You can get epistemological and all that jive but at our current level of understanding of the universe my explanation makes about as much sense any any other.
On the other hand maybe He just wanted to hear Jeff Beck cover Amazing Grace.
0zone
(60 posts)Why not create the universe??
Look at this from a different angle.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)care to answer either my question or your own??