I wonder what an atheist would think when seeing these kinds of stuffs

[muxin]

Just out of curiosity, we know there are lots of things that still can't be explained by science, or at least there hasn't been any solid theory that everyone can agree to explain it, but still.. usually these things have a wide room for many different theories and possibilities of an explanation that makes sense.

Now how if you find something or an event that seems like having no room for any scientific theory or logical explanation. Here is one interesting REAL case that nobody can yet give a single assuring logical explanation or a scientific theory, or even a speculation..

Please read this article and watch the video:

http://mysterytopia.com/2008/08/indonesian-woman-manusia-kawat-claims.html

Her name is NOORSYAIDAH. A 40 years old kindergarten teacher from Sangatta, East Kutai. Her first symptoms started manifestating in 1991. The metal wires grew out of her chest and her belly. There was no explanation then (or even now). During the first week wires kept falling off from her body and were gone. A month later, the wires grew back again and from that time onward the wires did not fall. They kept growing!

Please note that the wires coming out of her belly are REAL METAL WIRES! what is the possibility of human body can produce such thing? she has been examined by more than a dozen of medical experts and even investigated by the Ministry of Health, but no one can come up with a logical explanation. The wires are not just coming out then fall off, they're growing like hair, after they're cut they will grow back on and on since 1991.

She lives in Borneo in a location where many people still strongly believe and practice black magic, and so far that's the only explanation for it.

Here's another one:

http://www.indyarocks.com/blog/436250/Look-Video--Strange-disease-dozens-of-nails-found-at-the-Feet-of-Children

No one ever thought, in the calf Safirah, 3-year-old boy in the City of Parepare, South Sulawesi, was lodged dozens of nails and metal. When his mother knows the strangeness, the doctor was asked to remove foreign objects from the body of the boy.

There's only one thing incorrect about this news, Safirah is not a boy, she's a girl, the rest are true. The doctors first suspect that she inserted those objects herself or someone did it to her, but they couldn't find any entry wound, so yet no one can explain it.

These two stories have been a big buzz in Indonesian media for several years, many medical experts involved even the Ministry of Health, no explanation so far but some mythical theories.

I'm a believer but when it comes to black magic I'm a skeptic, however after seeing these I might have other thoughts. So how do you Atheists think when you see such stuffs, can you consider these as a proof of devil's work or black magic, or you guys actually have some kind of 'general' theory to deal with these stuffs?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

1. the tooth fairy is practicing on stainless steel implants.

[muxin]

3. LOL.. looks like she's out of teeth supply to have fun with

[hrmjustin]

2. Maybe she is a part of the Borg!

[Warren Stupidity]

4. You've convinced me! I now worship the holy wire of strangeness.

[muxin]

14. Why do you think I'm trying to convince anyone?

I just want to know what you think, that's all. I live in Indonesia and I have never met a single atheist in my life so I have many curiosities about them. I'm using this forum to be able to actually have a conversation with atheists cause I think it's a good place for that.

[whathehell]

59. Don't be upset, Muxin... We have many atheistic religion haters here, particularly of Christianity

If you say something negative about ANOTHER religion, like Judaism or Islam, though,

they'll likely attack you as "anti-Semitic", "Bigoted" or "Culturally Intolerant".

In contrast, a full pass is given to hating Christianity, which many stupidly define as the strict fundamentalist

type, i.e. "creationism", "the sky daddy", although those are actually a MINORITY in this country.

As you may have observed by now, many are incredibly rude AND intolerant themselves, but they'd prefer

you not notice.

[Warren Stupidity]

65. who's hating anything? I'm now worshiping the wire of strange goddess.

I am very grateful to the op for the revealed truthiness of the wire of strange goddess.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

84. I'll bet you have met an atheist in real life

It's just that it's not likely that anyone would tell you they're an atheist, especially in a country like Indonesia.

[muxin]

91. Haha.. maybe

But actually there was a few people I met (two or three) claiming to me that they're atheists only I didn't trust them to be a REAL atheist. Mostly because I saw that they still believe in superstitious things - like good luck charms, self protection spells, and such, I mean they can't be atheists, right? But yes, claiming to be an atheist in Indonesia could be like asking for trouble, especially if you admit it to the wrong person

[Mariana]

94. There are atheists who believe in "supernatural" things.

Some atheists believe in ghosts, for example. There probably are not many atheists who believe in such things, but there are some. Most likely, they believe these are actually natural phenomena that have not yet been explained by science.

The only thing that defines an atheist is that he or she does not believe that any gods exist. They can believe in anything else, and still be atheists.

Even in the United States there are areas where it isn't really wise to tell people you're an atheist. Atheists are almost never actually physically harmed here, but some atheists have received death threats, been fired from jobs, or have had their property vandalized.

I hope you'll continue to ask questions!

[rurallib]

5. What did Pat Robertson say the other day

something like 'god doesn't perform miracles in America anymore because too many people go to Harvard' or something like that.

Methinks there is more than a bit of the floating swamis in these stories.

But why does someone have to be an atheist not to believe? I think any skeptical person should be quite skeptical of stuff like this.

[hrmjustin]

6. What does this have to do with religion might I ask?

[muxin]

19. Because when you believe in God you also need to believe in devil and the devil's work

[hrmjustin]

21. I believe in God and I do not believe in hell, nor do I think the devil is working here.

I am just not sure this really has anything to do with religion.

[muxin]

24. How about supernatural stuffs?

Most religions have lots of supernatural theories

[hrmjustin]

25. Not really no!

But my question is why did you post this here. This OP does not appear to be about religion but a medical condition.

[muxin]

37. No?

I don't know what your religion is but I assume that you're a christian - hope I'm right

So assuming you're a christian, are you saying that when Jesus was resurrected from the dead it's not a supernatural event? or when Moses split the red sea there's nothing supernatural about it?

I think this could go to both, religion and medical.

Many people consider these events as supernatural events, all of them are believers, so I'm interested in finding out how an atheist think about it, that's why I posted it here.

[hrmjustin]

38. I am a Christian but I do not believe God or the devil decide anything here on Earth.

Medical I understand but I do not see how this is a religion post.

[muxin]

41. I just explained it why I posted it here

I'm curious about how atheists think about these stuffs, I don't think I have much chance getting their answers from medical section.

BTW you didn't answer my questions about the supernatural stuffs in Christian teaching.

Anyway, what kind of Christian are you? I mean are you a catholic, protestant or what? I apologize if the question sounds a bit rude, my English is not perfect, I don't know how to make the question more polite, it's not my first language, hope you're not offended

I'm a muslim but some of my closest friends are christians, mostly they are catholics, protestants, and advents. So I know quite a bit about their believe system, and honestly I've never met a christian who doesn't believe in hell nor something like devil's work like you. Care to explain more?

[hrmjustin]

44. I am Anglican/Episcopalian.

As I said before I do not believe in supernatural stuff. I am not saying it is impossible, I just don't put much faith in it.

[Skittles]

57. muxim, "stuffs" is not a word when used as a noun

Last edited Fri Jun 7, 2013, 08:09 PM - Edit history (1)

say "stuff" instead (drop the 's') - I'm not picking on you, just suspecting you use the the word a lot and want you too use it correctly

[muxin]

67. LOL.. I never knew that

I guess that's what happened when you learn English from Hollywood movies, I heard that word (stuffs) used so many times in the movies

Thanks for the correction

[Skittles]

70. aw thanks......like I said, NOT picking on you

I was confused just learning English in two English-speaking countries (England and America) so I have great respect for anyone who learns it! Also, I work extensively with offshore folk who often ask me to critique their English

also, just so you know, 'STUFF' is a very casual word (the noun)- fine in informal communication, like with friends or here on DU - but in professional communication you would find other words

[LTX]

97. Did you learn contractions from Hollywood movies too?

Your "parody English" has a funny way of appearing and disappearing. Maybe it's magic.

[rug]

82. Good post, Skittle.

[Skittles]

85. WHASSUP, RUG?

[rug]

86. Same old, same old.

[LostOne4Ever]

22. No you don't

Where do you get that implication from?

Deism has a god but no devil for example.

[muxin]

26. From believers around me

I live amongst muslims, christians and hindu people

I don't know anything about Deism, that's actually interesting

btw nice to see you again LostOne4Ever, I really enjoyed our first conversation

[LostOne4Ever]

31. Nice to see you too.

Sorry if im coming off cranky. I have a tendency to do that some times.

Just blame it on me getting out of the wrong side of the bed this morning >.<

[notadmblnd]

83. And those are examples of the devils work?

Is there a reason that it could not be God's work? It is said that God not does not give one things they can not handle. Why would an omnipotent God not stop the devil from doing his work? Why would God want one to be beset with the devil? Have these people somehow not lived up to Gods expectations and deserve to have the devils work set upon them?

[Warren Stupidity]

95. How is an independently acting immortal being not also a god?

Christians who believe in satan are polytheistic. Then again so are those who believe in angels, worship sants, etc.

[Iggo]

104. Wires growing out of some lady is the devil's work?

[Arkansas Granny]

7. I will admit that there are some thing that science has been unable to explain.

However, just because they can't be explained scientifically does not mean that it has a supernatural cause.

[muxin]

35. I agree with you

But what I'm saying is usually those things have a wide room for different theories, you know.. it could be this.. could be that..

The problem is I just couldn't find that much room for logical theories on these stories, that's why I'm curious about what others think especially the Atheist members, because I know they would strongly against any kind of supernatural explanation.

[longship]

8. Simplest explanation?

She's using trickery.

Done.

[WovenGems]

50. Hoax

This case proves the 15 minutes of fame desire isn't just an American thingy.

[madmom]

9. Just because we don't know the reason for something

doesn't mean god has anything to do with it. It just means we don't know!

[Vietnameravet]

10. Its definately the devil at work..

this is why I always offer a ram to Zeus each New Years and, say what you want, but this has never happened to me..

[enlightenment]

11. As an atheist, I think

it's a shame that the so-called experts in Indonesia are willing to entertain "black magic" before they consider mental illness, which is clearly what's going on here.

There is nothing spooky here - just some ill individuals who need psychiatric help.

[muxin]

17. The experts never said it's black magic

they simply don't have any theory / explanation, I meant the only theory that it's black magic is just from common people.

[enlightenment]

23. Okay - let me rephrase.

This "phenomenon" is a manifestation of a mental illness that is not being addressed by the medical authorities. There's nothing weird, spooky, or unknowable about it.

[muxin]

30. It's actually considered as a medical problem by the experts

I know Indonesia is a 3rd world country but our doctors are not that stupid, if these people really have mental illness I find it hard to believe if that many doctors including those from ministry of health don't have any idea. Are you implying that they did it to themselves? how?

[enlightenment]

63. Of course they did it to themselves.

Metal does not "grow", for one - nor spontaneously "appear" in bodies. IF it did, why would it only appear in places that are easily accessible by the individual; the stomach, the feet. Why not the back or the buttocks?

People have been inflicting strange injuries on themselves for centuries, if not longer. It is a form of mental illness. If the doctors in Indonesia are confused about it, it is because they are determined to find a physical cause for a psychological condition.

If you want to believe this is a big mystery, go right ahead. Your question was "what would an atheist think of this" and that's what I answered. End of story and I am not going to engage in a fruitless debate about it.

[muxin]

69. Ok thanks for the answer

Sorry if you think I'm trying to have a debate on this, I'm just trying to know more explanation on your opinion.

"why would it only appear in places that are easily accessible by the individual?"

That actually makes sense

[trotsky]

12. LMAO

"Hence, there is but only one other possible consideration… Occult magic."

Yup! That's the ONLY possible explanation alright!

[arcane1]

13. Both cases look like horse-shit to me

It will certainly take more than uncredited claims on a website to convince me otherwise.

[muxin]

15. The only reason why I took the articles from those sources

are because they're written in English, there are many more legitimate sources but all are written in Indonesian language. When these cases happen nearly all TV stations covered the news almost every day because it's really strange, I can confirm this because I live in Indonesia.

[Ian David]

16. Here's another one...

Ermagerd! He's got my nose!

Explain THAT, Atheists!

[trotsky]

20. +1000 n/t

[bunnies]

60. lol! This for the thread win!

[edhopper]

18. I wonder what believers

would think when they present something that has to has a supernatural cause that then turns out to be nothing but mundane trickery?

[In_The_Wind]

27. I don't believe this information.

[LostOne4Ever]

28. Gods of the Gaps

Whatever can not be explained must be because of a god. Of course their domain grows smaller and smaller by the day. At one time water was thought to run down hill because the river nymphs were trying to return to their father Poseidon. Now we know its gravity.

Statues crying blood? It must be god! Oh wait its just a combination of paint and humidity.

If we turned to supernatural explanations every time something occurred that we can't explain there would be no science. Solar Eclipses would still be celestial dragons eating the sun and rainbows would be caused by pots of gold.

I know the tone of this post is very sarcastic but you did ask for my view. I mean no insult but this is how I see unexplained phenomena. That said, it very well could still be a hoax. People used to say crop circles could not be explained...and then we get youtube videos of kids making them.

I don't know the exact details of this case, who the experts were or how accredited they are or are not, but I have my doubts. Further, there is nothing specifically religious about this even if it is real.

[muxin]

39. I don't feel insult at all

You gave a serious answer based on what you trust, that's all I expected.

[bowens43]

29. there is absolutely nothing that can't explained without a the need for a magical sky fairy....

just because we can't explain something today doesn't mean we won't be able to explain it tomorrow.

the idea that 'we cant explain it so it must be god or some other magical being' is silly and childish.

[muxin]

42. Finally I start getting some real answers

Thanks for that

[demwing]

107. Out of curiosity...why use the term "sky fairy"?

Why not speak/write using language that's respectful of the person, if not of the belief?

[Blue_Adept]

32. To quote a prophet...

“Magic's just science that we don't understand yet.”


― Arthur C. Clarke

[muxin]

43. That's a good one

[Bad Thoughts]

33. Atheists need not worry

If the presence of a deity can only be known through esoteric events that take place in isolated places, the nature of which can only known by the end results, then recognition of the deity must be optional.

Unless that deity is setting people up to fail.

ETA: if these are real miracles, the obviously for the people to be experiences by those directly involved. They are not for general consumption.

[struggle4progress]

34. I imagine most folk will think what I think: namely, the woman has some mental problem

that causes her to seek attention by pushing metal wires into her tummy and fabricating bizarre explanations

A handful of folk, I suppose, might come up with various novel interpretations of the story -- such as "This is what happens when you live in a religious country" or "She's being punished because Obama repealed DADT" -- and might regard my interpretation of the story as proof that I believe religious people can do no wrong or that I am some sort of secret devil worshipper

But "The woman has some mental problem" still seems to me the best guess for now, given the limited information available

[muxin]

49. Ok, sounds like "mental illness" is the winner here

Like I said in the OP, I'm a believer but I'm actually a skeptic when it comes to black magic or any of those stuffs, also I think a religious person who thinks that religious people can do no wrong is an idiot who doesn't even deserve to be called "religious".

But to me it's a bit hard to believe to think that it's a mental illness, considering many medical experts involved in the examination including those from the Ministry of Health. I know it's real (the medical checks) because I got enough information from many respected medias in Indonesia - I live there. When these events occur they covered the stories of almost all of the medical exams, so I think if it's a fraud at least one of the doctors must have known that.

Then again, you can only judge from this limited information I give in the OP, so mental illness is actually a reasonable conclusion.

[dimbear]

62. Or some third party is doing this for her.

Or it could be that the laws of the physical universe are suspended.

I'm betting........fraud.

[struggle4progress]

81. Yeah, some sort of domestic or familial abuse might be indicated

I'm really not competent to address the possibility that she lives in some universe with laws so different from the universe where I live. Perhaps there are such universes, into which some people somehow find some entry, but if that is so I am not terribly eager to learn how to enter them, as people who live in such offbeat universes often seem to me strangely and profoundly disturbed

[Hissyspit]

36. Have you never been to a magician's show?

You think an audience completely flummoxed by a magician proves the existence of God?

Good grief...

[muxin]

45. The only problem is

The magician doesn't have to go through lots of medical checks and convince dozens of medical experts about his/her bizarre abilities

[Hissyspit]

46. That doesn't mean anything.

First, everything you you know about this is heresay. Second, "experts" get things wrong all the time and all throughout time.

[muxin]

47. Yep no argue about that.. people make mistakes all the time

But for what it's worth I can assure you it's not hearsay. I live in Indonesia, so I actually watched nearly all respected medias in this country were covering those stories almost daily. The medical checks by dozens of medical experts were real and also conducted by the people from the Ministry of Health including the Health Minister herself. But like you said, people make mistake and that's a possibility too.

[Goblinmonger]

40. For something really cool that isn't a mental illness

here's one about a feather coming out of a baby girl's neck.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/13/feather-pulled-from-baby-mya-whittington-neck_n_2294343.html

[Notafraidtoo]

48. Umm ROFL

This is in the realm of national enquirer and bigfoot or alien abductions Based on the information you provided its the same imaginary bullshit. looks like nothing more then parlor tricks to me the fact anyone would consider it anything but shows the gullibility of humans that allow the unethical ambitious power over nations.

Yes i said it believing in stuff like this makes you a enemy to us all because you become a tool.

[muxin]

51. If you dig more..

You'll get much more information from many respected medias, the problem is all of them are in Indonesian language and I don't think that would be much helpful here.

Like I said in the earlier post: "I live in Indonesia, so I actually watched nearly all respected medias in this country were covering those stories almost daily. The medical checks by dozens of medical experts were real and also conducted by the people from the Ministry of Health including the Health Minister herself."

Do I believe in these being supernatural? maybe, but if you have other explanation that's more logical I'm willing to hear and more than ready to believe it, I just think it would be wise for a person who believes in science to find out more about the story before making a conclusion that it's a total bullshit.

I become a tool? this makes me your enemy? just by posting this story? seriously dude? you're being hysterical, chill out.. I just want to hear what you think.

[Heddi]

58. You don't seem to be willing to accept the fact

that nearly everyone (or perhaps everyone...I haven't surveyed all the responses you've gotten) in this thread is telling you that these people are not under supernatural forces. These manifestations are not from black magic or spells or demons.

I have a very hard time believing that something as amazing as wires growing out of someone's body, or nails appearing in someone's intestines wouldn't be published in western medical journals if these were truly cause by biological or natural means. Medicine LOVES this stuff...I mean shit, even the most cynical skeptic and hater of traditional medicine would see that this is something that needs research, a cure, treatment....why would Western medicine ignore these outstanding new medical issues if they were real?

The truth of the matter is that they're not real. That Dr's in your country refuse to diagnose them as attention-seeking behaviour, or mental illness, or munchausen's by proxy means nothing to me.

There are MD's in the US that have questionable ethics, that are motivated by fame and money, and will say that AIDS is a made-up disease. That will say that cancer can be cured by eating Oranges.

Just because a Dr says it, or doesn't say it, doesn't make it true.

And you say "I think it would be wise for a person who believes in science to find out more about the story before making a conclusion that it is total bullshit."

Well, firstly, Science isn't something that you believe or don't believe in. Science isn't a religion. Gravity exists whether you believe in it or not. Photosynthesis will occur regardless of whether there is a church in its name or not.

And despite your pleas for "tell me what you think,' when people DO tell you what they think, you get very defensive and seemingly don't want to hear what these people are saying.

There is no black magic at work in these cases. If you want someone to agree with you that these are instances where demons have put wires in people's bodies, I think you're on the wrong website, or perhaps the wrong forum. You may find a more sympathetic audience here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1220 , as I know at one time there were many proponents of the totally made up "Morgellon's Disease" in that group, but I don't know if that's the case now.

Also, I'm not sure why you're interested in what Atheists think regarding this. I think there are many non-Atheists here who have just as much time swallowing the "it's black magic" diagnosis.

[muxin]

64. Actually it's the exact reaction that I expected..

I'm asking for atheists opinions, I'm not an idiot, of course they will say there's nothing supernatural about it.

"Just because a Dr says it, or doesn't say it, doesn't make it true." I can also say, just because it's not published by the western medical journals doesn't mean it's not true.

"There are MD's in the US that have questionable ethics, that are motivated by fame and money" I agree to that, but this story is confirmed by our Health Minister as a medical phenomenon, do you think she will risk her reputation over this? I mean if she's not sure.

"when people DO tell you what they think, you get very defensive and seemingly don't want to hear what these people are saying."
Please check ALL my responses to previous posts by other members, when the responses are reasonable I will accept it. The previous poster said "Based on the information you provided its the same imaginary bullshit" so I simply told him to dig more info before jumping to a conclusion, why do you think I'm being defensive just by saying that?

I'm not trying to convince anyone that it's a black magic, I said it in the OP, I am a believer but I'm a skeptic when it comes to black magic. I found this really really weird, here's what I am convinced thus far based on all the information I've got from what I consider as trusted sources.. I believe it's a medical phenomenon, I believe the woman is not mentally ill, I believe the wires are real. Is it a black magic? I'm skeptic, I simply said the medical experts have no explanation while the widespread speculation amongst the COMMON people are black magic is the cause. If you can explain this case logically I'd love to hear it.

[Heddi]

71. It has been explained to you logically

These wires are not a medical phenomenon. They are the manifestations of a charlatan or someone who is mentally ill.

Again, why hasn't the western media and western MD's swept this woman away for a battery of tests to find out the cause of this miraculous medical phenomenon? Surely wires growing out of someone's body is worthy of study by the world's leaders in biology, anatomy, physiology, disease process, infectious disease, health maintenance...

yet there she sits, alone in Indonesia, being prayed (and preyed) over by faith healers and doctors with questionable credentials.

There is your logical explanation. She's a fraud. There's nothing more logical to it than that.

And I believe JAMA (Journal of the American Medical Association), NEJM (New England Journal of Medicine), The Lancet, The British Medical Journal more than I believe poorly written and/or poorly translated sources from a country that is not known for its advances, standards, or expertise in medicine, scientific prowess, or journalism.

[Heddi]

76. and shame on me for further replying to this nonsense

but I did a google search on this woman. And not ONE SINGLE REPUTABLE NEWS SOURCE has reported this. Only second hand, poorly written and bullshit sites devoted to woo and nonsense.

why?

Why has western media...the US, Europe, Asia (aside from Indonesia), Africa, South America, Russia, Austrialia....all of these countries/continents have completely ignored this medical miracle?

If these are naturally occurring wires growing naturally out of her body, why are the spots red and inflammed, as if they are infected? That would be the case if she had put these wires into her body. But something growing out naturally shouldn't look so...nasty. With pustules. And redness.

My friend, you've fallen for a hoax. And I believe you're trying your best (and failing) to trap us poor, misguided Atheists into the "Oh, so you can't explain it?????????????" canard that so many internet trolls have tried (and failed) over the years.

You're not interested in a discussion. You're not interested in what Atheists think about this. You're here for less than honest reasons and I'm very sorry that I've wasted my time with you and this ridiculous hoaxy nonsense.

[struggle4progress]

92. Holy moly! We sure oughta wonder why this important story is only be covered by fringe sites!

Do you think it could be another conspiracy to keep us all in the dark?

I almost hate to suggest it, but the inexplicable silence of mainstream media in this case sure does lend support to the idea that extraterrestrials have taken over the bodies and souls of our top business and government leaders and won't let them say anything that might open the eyes of the sheeple!

[Heddi]

93. I agree with you.

it is a conspiracy by the wire makers of America. They are turning us all into, like, spiders that spin webs of wire instead of silk and they will harvest us for our wire producing abililties. And the world will be overrun with wire and...can't say anymore.

[cleanhippie]

87. "I'm not an idiot..." If you think think wires, a man-made object that does not occur in nature,

Are growing magically from a persons body, you may want to reevaluate your opinion about yourself.

[muxin]

89. So I guess you would also think that a person who believes

a man can split the red sea or walk on water are idiots too simply because it's scientifically impossible. That's like saying ALL christians are idiots, which is absolutely not true.

Anyway, I never said I believe it, read the OP, I'm skeptic about it but I have some doubts due to the intensity of the media coverage.

[Warren Stupidity]

96. You try pinning down the believers here on which biblical woo is woo, they won't. Nt.

[edhopper]

98. Anbody who thinks

the Red sea story is real (or the actual existence of Moses for that matter) isn't an idiot, they just aren't thinking.

[cleanhippie]

101. The only doubt you have is whether its a hoax or not. You seem to be leaning toward the "it's real"

So good luck with that.

[richmwill]

52. "Tonight, on an all new 'House'..." lol (n/t)

[Heddi]

53. I'm an Atheist, and I'm a nurse, and here's what I think of it

The woman in article #1 either has a mental illness where she ingests metal items, or where she inserts items into her skin. Or, perhaps she doesn't have a mental illness per-se, but rather is a charlatan who is doing this for money or sympathy or some other secondary gain. At any rate, there is absolutely no indication that this is a naturally-occurring phenomenon.

For the child in the second article, I suggest that he is a victim of Munchhausen's syndrome by proxy. Someone is feeding him metal items or some how introducing these metal items into his body.

The fact that you immediately point to these being evidence of "black magic" is, well, ridiculous. There is no black magic. There is no supernatural cause of the metal in these people's bodies.

As to your points further down thread where you state :

I know Indonesia is a 3rd world country but our doctors are not that stupid, if these people really have mental illness I find it hard to believe if that many doctors including those from ministry of health don't have any idea. Are you implying that they did it to themselves? how?

If the doctors in your country can't see this as mental illness then yes, they are that stupid.

I would encourage these patients to be examined in the US or the UK or another country where we don't initially jump to the "black magic did it!" conclusion.

And honestly, a quick google search *does* make me question the educational standards that Indonesian MD's and other medical professionals are held to, so the fact that they cannot/will not see this woman as suffering from mental illness or doing this for secondary gain, or do not think the child in question has been manipulated in others isn't surprising based on what I've read. And if black magic or superstition or supernatural entities is their diagnosis, then yes, they are that stupid.
-------------


http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2012/04/06/after-success-in-health-service-quantity-Indonesia-now-addresses-quality

"Quality of the schools varies widely, where quality of newly established education institutions remain poor. Evidence shows little improvement in quality of doctors, nurses and midwives during the period of 1997-2007. The Medical Practice Act in 2004 supported the establishment of the Indonesian Medical Council, which produced standards for physician competencies and medical education in 2006. However, given the varying capacities of Indonesian medical schools, the standards are not implemented consistently. As a consequence, large and growing variation in quality exists among schools and their graduates."

....One critical factor to determine graduates meet the required competency standard for health workers is putting a good examination system in place. A national examination, including a competency assessment, is being developed under the project, and will be mandatory in addition to existing exams currently held at the faculty level....

--------
http://www.imtj.com/articles/2008/indonesia-why-indonesians-go-overseas-for-medical-care/

Many Indonesians seek medical help abroad. Some 30-40 percent of foreign patients in Singapore at any one time are Indonesian.

Mount Elizabeth Hospital (www.mountelizabeth.com.sg) in Singapore is often referred to as the Indonesian Hospital due to the high number of Indonesian patients passing through its doors.

When asked why they seek medical treatment abroad, many Indonesians say the health care sector in Indonesia is poor and the price of medical help abroad is acceptable considering its quality.

The Indonesian government appears oblivious to all this. It has also paid little attention to the sales of illegal alternative medicines and questionable medical techniques in their own. In cities you can see banners displayed advertising non-surgical cures for cataracts, medicines to treat cancer and programs that claim to make people lose a considerable amount of weight in a week.
-----------

[muriel_volestrangler]

61. The doctor who treated the child thought a person put the nails there

The doctor who operated on Safira, Dr Kamaruddin, has previously stated that the nails were inserted by a person.

Chief Brig. Mansyur, the head of Parepare Police’s Women and Children’s Protection Unit, meanwhile, was quoted by the news portal as confirming the doctor’s statement “that the nails were inserted from outside.”

http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/archive/governor-suggests-nails-in-toddlers-legs-due-to-witchcraft/

What eventually happened, I can't tell, but it's good to see the doctor and the police took this seriously.

[muxin]

66. That's what I thought the first time I heard about these stories

That they ingested those materials, but the question is how the wire can then grow? or with the kid how come those materials ended up in the leg?

I agree if those patients could just be examined in the US or the UK we might have a better answer, I don't know anything about medical science but if this is really a natural condition (without involving any supernatural aspects) then we need to find the way to give the best treatment so other people don't have to suffer like them.

FYI the claim "black magic" is the claim from common people, it's actually started as a rumor but then people got more and more convinced after seeing the evidence, the medical experts simply don't have any explanation. Also a lot of the doctors involved in the examinations are actually graduated from overseas, mostly from the US and UK.

[Heddi]

73. THEY ARE NOT "GROWING" OUT OF ANYTHING

They are being expelled by the skin because they were PUT INTO THE SKIN.

We have treatment for this condition. It's called medication, therapy, and perhaps institutionalization.

If you get a thistle stuck in your finger, your body will do its best to "expel" the thistle because it is not part of your body. You will see this thistle, which was previosuly deeply imbedded in the skin of your thumb, over time, be "pushed" out through the skin.

Your skin isn't growing thistle. The thistle isn't growing. It's being expelled.

The metal is being expelled from her body because she put it there. Put a shard of glass in your leg and over time that glass will make its way up and eventually break through the skin and expel itself.

"Also a lot of the doctors involved in the examinations are actually graduated from overseas, mostly from the US and UK." Sure. I'd ask for proof, but it's meaningless. Again, we have MD's in the US that state that AIDS isn't a real disease, and that cancer can be cured from a mixture of herbs.

The more you post about this ridiculous subject, the more I believe you are here for trolling than for conversation.

[muxin]

90. Thanks!

That's a good logical explanation.

If you don't get too cranky about it and accuse me for being a troll I would say I really enjoy this conversation and I appreciate that you took time to dig more on the subject.

Yes for you this might sound like a ridiculous subject, I said the same thing when one of my american friend said there's a stupid vice president candidate running for the election that didn't even know where Russia is and knows nothing about foreign politics affair, I said he was being ridiculous because I don't think that can happen in a country like USA, I thought he just hated the person and exaggerate things.Yes that's two different thing, but what I'm trying to say is I didn't get the kind of information like he did at least not as intense as he did so I didn't know how he can come up to a conclusion of "we have an idiot vice president candidate", just like on these cases, you don't know how intense the medias that all of us in Indonesia considered to be trusted covered these stories, they showed the examination process, interviewed the doctors, invited these people to talk shows.. etc..etc, so yes I have a lot of questions and will question your answers if I feel like there's something on your answers needs to be questioned, that's not being "defensive" IMO.

Again I'm not trolling, just trying to make a civilize conversation, I've tried to be nice but with all those blatant accusations you're making it so hard to do so, call me all you like I'm done with you.

[cleanhippie]

102. Of COURSE he is trolling. And doing a fine job of it, too!

Best thread this group has had in a long time!

[2ndAmForComputers]

108. Me, I'm calling Poe on this.

[Shrike47]

54. Just because we can't explain it doesn't mean it's miraculous or divine intervention.

It's just our ignorance and our efforts to deal with fear of the unknown.

By the way, objects swallowed or otherwise internalized in the body may work themselves out years later. My mother went through a car windshield and for decades was pushing out pieces of glass periodically from her skin.

[muxin]

75. Really? Now that's interesting

So there is a possibility that these people ingest those objects a long time ago then. Are those tiny pieces or quite big pieces of glass?
BTW sorry about your mother, I hope she's okay now.

[itsrobert]

55. Illusions like this have been around a long time

proves nothing, only that there are still fools that fall for these tricks.

[KentuckyMark]

56. I will reply

I doubt you will get very many Christians believing this let alone us atheists.
Did she perhaps swallow a bunch of wires and they are working themselves out?
Have the wires been scientifically analyzed. I imagine that the composition will reveal that its a common wire produced in mass. As stated above, many things in the past now have been given a scientific explanation. I would believe that aliens are somehow abducting her at night and sticking wires in her then believe that's it some hocus locus from big spook and little spook.

[cleanhippie]

68. What do you think when you see it?

THIS atheist thinks that even a cursory examination by an independent, 3rd party doctor would reveal what this really is; a hoax.

I would also like to think that theists who are able to form even a basic logical thought would think the same.

Being a believer or non-believer has absolutely nothing to do with it. Being a critical thinker does.

What do you think when you see this?

[Heddi]

74. he stated up thread that he thinks its real

that these people are growing rusty nails and pieces of picture-frame wire out of their lady bits

[muxin]

88. The first time I saw it? I think it's ridiculous

But then all the medias got crazy about it, none of them showing that it's a hoax, mostly they're just showing the medical examination process, how the doctors don't have any explanation and such. I saw it almost every time I turned on the television for a few months, so yes I have my doubts. I'm saying if it's really a hoax then the media is to blame for shaping the people's opinion.

I would love to see these patience being examined in a developed country with much better equipments to get a better assuring answer.

[cbayer]

72. Looks like a hoax, something that most believers and non-believers would

probably agree on.

[Warpy]

78. Absolutely. All the Fakirs used to be in India

but it looks like it's all migrated to the Pacific islands.

And yes, we know believers have working BS detectors, too.

[cbayer]

79. I know you understand that about believers.

It was more for the OP, who seems to be confused by the whole event, lol.

[Warpy]

77. You BOUGHT this stuff?

Honestly, you can start taking this junk seriously when and if the article about it is published by Johns Hopkins or another teaching hospital that has flown such people in to examine.

As for questions we can't answer, most of us out here, atheist and believer, find questions to be exciting, leading us places we thought didn't exist until we built something to observe them.

Answers, however, are rather dull. The dullest answer of all is "god did it" because that shuts everything down all at once, no more exploration can be done without invoking bad juju and/or the wrath of priests.

[mike_c]

80. oh for pete's sake....

Yes, I do indeed have a "general theory to deal with these stuffs." Seriously.

[SwissTony]

99. I don't know. Shakespeare may have alluded to this phenomenom in one of his sonnets

SONNET 130

My mistress' eyes are nothing like the sun;
Coral is far more red than her lips' red;
If snow be white, why then her breasts are dun;
If hairs be wires, black wires grow on her head.
I have seen roses damask'd, red and white,
But no such roses see I in her cheeks;
And in some perfumes is there more delight
Than in the breath that from my mistress reeks.
I love to hear her speak, yet well I know
That music hath a far more pleasing sound;
I grant I never saw a goddess go;
My mistress, when she walks, treads on the ground:
And yet, by heaven, I think my love as rare
As any she belied with false compare.

Here's a video starring Catherine Tate and David Tennant from the British Comic Relief program incorporating this sonnet. Many of you will be familiar with Doctor Who. Of course, David played the Doctor and Catherine was his assistant.

[JoeyT]

100. These aren't even particularly good examples of unexplained phenomena.

People will do all manner of stuff to get attention. A dude ate a plane. Like. Just pulled it apart and ate it. For attention. Shoving wires into yourself is pretty minor in comparison.

The first story claims all these doctors are baffled, but the only websites that reference it are all crank websites. If this were real there would be papers published. You can however view pictures of it, and it looks exactly what I'd expect it to look like if someone jammed wires into their body. There aren't any wires on the inside in the visible X-Rays, either. The only visible wires are the ones stuck in the front. Which is another thing: Why are they all only growing out of places that are easy for her to reach? None out of the sides or back of her abdomen? Why out of the backs of her hands but not out of the back of her legs or shoulders? Why are the wires in the back of her hand only "growing" under the surface of the skin, where there aren't many nerves? (You can thread a needle under your skin without much pain at all.) Why not out of her fingernails? Because shoving wires under your fingernails freaking hurts is why.

For the second story: The stuff they're digging out of that kid are *recognizable household objects*. If a body growing random wire is far fetched, a body spontaneously growing a sewing needle is way beyond belief. The lack of pain could be described by several things: Previously inserted objects could've caused nerve damage, or he could be one of those rare people that just straight up don't feel pain.

Münchausen and Münchausen by proxy respectively. (Or Facticious disorder and FDbP)

[moobu2]

103. People do crazy things to their bodies all the time. Take serial killer Albert Fish,

one of the more bizarre examples. Albert Fish was a seemingly mild mannered older man on the outside but in reality was an incredibly cruel serial killer who kidnapped, tortured, killed and ate young children in the early part of the 20th century. Below is an xray of Albert Fish's pelvis. According to Wikipidia "Fish had at least 29 needles lodged in his pelvic region. He also hit himself repeatedly with a nail-studded paddle and inserted wool doused with lighter fluid into his anus and set it alight." At one time Fish claimed he was acting out the orders of John the Apostle and frequently had extremely vivid religiously themed hallucinations. He said he viewed his cannibalism of children as a form of religious communion. Anyway, people do things, sometimes crazy crazy things. It's probably related to some brain abnormality I'd guess.

[Iggo]

105. I'd say, "What a weird medical condition..."

"...I bet there's a fascinating scientific explanation for that."

[Zoeisright]

106. Fraud.

That's what I see.