Religion
Related: About this forumNo Hero Here: S.C. High School Student’s Lord’s Prayer Stunt Was Selfish, Not Brave
Jun 7, 2013
by Simon Brown
in Wall of Separation
Bob Dylan once said: A hero is someone who understands the responsibility that comes with his freedom. By that standard, a South Carolina high school valedictorian who recited the Lords Prayer at his graduation is no hero.
When Liberty High School in Liberty, S.C., held its graduation last week, the ceremony was supposed to be devoid of coercive prayer. According to the Christian News, Pickens County School District decided this year to ban official prayers from events like graduations following multiple complaints by groups concerned about church-state separation.
As valedictorian, Roy Costner IV was tasked with giving a speech at his graduation. His remarks were approved in advance, the News said, but when it came time for Costner to speak he tore up his planned speech and launched into the Lords Prayer.
Costner prefaced the prayer with brief remarks, asserting, Those that we look up to, they have helped carve and mold us into the young adults that we are today. Im so glad that both of my parents led me to the Lord at a young age. And I think most of you will understand when I say Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name
https://www.au.org/blogs/wall-of-separation/no-hero-here-sc-high-school-student-s-lord-s-prayer-stunt-was-selfish-not
Further in the article is the meat of AU's objection which, I think, speaks to the issue of freedom of religious expression:
rug
(82,333 posts)Adsos Letter
(19,459 posts)I edited my OP to include what I think is the meat of AU's attitude toward this vis-a-vis freedom of religious expression:
Adsos Letter
(19,459 posts)just for context's sake.
rug
(82,333 posts)I'm sure it's out there somewhere.
CurtEastPoint
(18,639 posts)Loosely worded but yes, he's no hero.
longship
(40,416 posts)What he did was voluntary prayer. He was exercising his right as a citizen.
Although I personally find such overt public expressions of religion as tasteless and smarmy, he did nothing wrong.
It would be a whole different matter if a teacher or administrator said a prayer. That would be both coercive and unconstitutional, because a public employee in a position of power over the students was praying.
At least that's how I understand it.
Adsos Letter
(19,459 posts)I would feel it coercive if I were there, since I would be forced to sit through it if I wanted to experience the graduation ceremony for one of my kids.
I'm no Constitutional scholar, so I can't speak to the legal aspect.
I write this as a practicing Christian.
longship
(40,416 posts)I don't at all like what he did, but that doesn't mean that it's unconstitutional, AFAIK.
BTW, bandwidth limited here.
Adsos Letter
(19,459 posts)Ah, ok.
I'm glad rug posted it, and I wish you were able to watch it. Being present through hearing, rather than reading alone, made an impact on how I felt about it. I think AU has a point about the framework of his role as valedictorian; although, I also take your point about his not being a government/public figure of some kind.
ON EDIT: Still, I would feel it coercive if I were there, since I would be forced to sit through it if I wanted to experience the graduation ceremony for one of my kids.
longship
(40,416 posts)As an atheist I would not like it at all. But SCOTUS has more or less blessed (so to speak) this kind of voluntary expression. Again, AFAIK.
In other words, I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Adsos Letter
(19,459 posts)I wouldn't like it either.
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)It was highly inappropriate.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)Cole v Oroville sets the precedent. The students giving speeches are giving speeches that the school approves and are using the school microphone. Because of that, they cannot give overtly religious speeches.
longship
(40,416 posts)Adsos Letter
(19,459 posts)The school had disallowed public prayer during the event, and his speech had been submitted to them beforehand.
He chose to depart from the approved speech. I wonder if he received tacit approval from anyone in authority before he pulled that stunt?
Bad Thoughts
(2,522 posts)Apparently, he spoke to several people beforehand (no school officials), and he tore up his approved speech, after which he gauged the reaction of school officials to see if they would stop him.
Drale
(7,932 posts)does not equal intelligence because if this idiot had any ounce of intelligence in his body, this never would have happened.
Revanchist
(1,375 posts)The kid is probably extremely intelligent, but lacks common sense or "street smarts" which isn't an unusual occurrence.
LostOne4Ever
(9,288 posts)about what he did...just horribly horribly unethical.
Forcing your religious opinions on a captive audience is anything BUT heroic.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)They should have shut the microphone off as soon as he started into it.
Kid's a privileged asshole.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Pretty much sums it up, and includes those that agree with what he did.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Adsos Letter
(19,459 posts)Last edited Fri Jun 7, 2013, 09:02 PM - Edit history (1)
that the school district muckety-mucks were probably just as happy that he did it, despite their ban, simply by this bit of self-justification for letting it pass:
The bottom line is, were not going to punish students for expressing their religious faiths, he told Christian News. Hes a graduate now. Theres nothing we can do about it, even if we wanted to. (emphasis added)
http://p.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jun/5/crowd-stunned-after-valedictorian-rips-speech-reci/#ixzz2VZzMyb00
So says The Washington Times anyway, no doubt just as happy about it.
OK, I guess there was some research there.
Only a modicum, though...
cbayer
(146,218 posts)But I can't see how they could do anything to him at this point.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)where they put up pictures and names of speakers who have deviated from the pre-approved script.
goldent
(1,582 posts)On the other hand, to criticize him because not all of the peers believed in God is BS also. Come on people, grow up!
LostOne4Ever
(9,288 posts)and the view I get is that he has nothing but disdain for the separation of Church and state or respecting his fellow classmates who do not believe as he does. I think that is worth criticizing.
I also think its worth getting upset about because it sends a clear message that its okay for the majority to force their views on a minority and encourages others to do so in a similar manner.
Adsos Letter
(19,459 posts)and well said. The young man isn't being criticized because his peers aren't believers.
goldent
(1,582 posts)who spoke their mind. You don't "represent your class" by giving some "average in every way" speech -- classes are made up of individuals and they don't all think alike.
Adsos Letter
(19,459 posts)Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)1. What he did goes against current SCOTUS rulings and violates the separation of church and state.
2. I was the faculty speaker at the school at which I teach a couple weeks ago and neither I nor the two gentlemen from the graduating class that spoke before me gave average speeches. One spoke about Camus' "Myth of Sisyphus" (which I taught him in Brit Lit, btw) and the other spoke about the literary concept that a journey is not about the destination but what happens getting there. They were great speeches. Neither of them had to Jesus it up go make it something great. Neither of them said things every other student was thinking. How many high school kids do you know that are conversant in Camus? "Speaking your mind" does not give you the right to do #1 above.
goldent
(1,582 posts)1. No, what he did isn't in violation of SCOTUS rulings - those rulings apply to government officials - in this case the school administration. IF they review and approve the speeches (most schools do) then they must disallow anything overly religious. He was some kid speaking beyond any approved text, so no problem.
2. Yes, I agree you can give an interesting speech without bringing up Jesus. Of course if you WANT to start controversy, you can:
a. Bring up some scandalous gossip about a teacher or admin
b. Bring up Jesus
Choice a will usually not go beyond the community boundaries, while choice b can go nationwide.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)It's pretty clear he can't do what he did. The school cannot let him.
goldent
(1,582 posts)That case does not address non-reviewed/non-approved speech by class speakers (or any other student or other member of the audience that decides to start addressing the audience without permission). When the speaker went "off script" Cole v Oroville became non-applicable because it was no longer speech that was sanctioned by the school admin. If you see something to the contrary, please point it out.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)If the school has an approval process for the speeches (like they do here) then the speech becomes the school's message and the school/message cannot be overtly religious. When he went "off-script" that does not give him the right to do what he wants. The message being sent is still one that is sanctioned by the school even if the student veers from the "script." As a result, if it is overtly religious, then the school should be shutting the message down.
goldent
(1,582 posts)That's a funny way of thinking. Fortunately for the student speaker, law enforcement is based on what the courts actually say -- so he was able to stick it to the man without worry of repercussions.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)Let's support the asshole in this. The shit I read on a progressive site is sometimes astonishing.
The court can come back and tell the school they need to do a better job at what they are doing. They could be held in contempt. There are other things that can happen.
But, hey, you want to applaud and slap on the back some jackass that gave an overtly religious speech when the courts said it was a violation of the First Amendment because of separation of church and state...go right ahead. I know all I need to know based on that. Rather than stand up for a progressive and liberal position, you are going to high five the right wing Christian who is "sticking it to the man." But you do know that "the man" in this instance is likely described by his as the liberal court system and god damned atheists.
Enjoy your bed mate.
goldent
(1,582 posts)to have school admins require these student speakers submit their speech for review and approval. They can instead tell the students what topics are legally off-limits. The vast majority of students will comply - a very few won't. This is how the world works. Life will go on.
LostOne4Ever
(9,288 posts)and being inclusive are too different things.
Talking about the challenges facing us in the future or calling for hope are different from one that takes a giant poop on the beliefs of others.
If an atheist made a graduation speech in which they said that God was dead or a myth, I would criticize that too. Difference being, if that happened no one would be calling the kid a hero and he would have had his mic cut and been booed off the stage.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)These people were not gathered in his name. Jesus Christ said don't pray so others can see you that people think you are righteous! He said go pray in your room where your father will hear you in secret. Now this does not mean you can not pray in public but praying so that others can see you is violating what Jesus Christ said.
This gentleman is no hero!
Adsos Letter
(19,459 posts)I'm a Christian also.
But, in my opinion, these issues have to be addressed in terms of the Bill of Rights, and not on theological grounds, although we could certainly discuss how we think this stacks up, theology-wise.
Have a great weekend.
EDITED TO ADD: Your sig-line is among my favorite passages of scripture. I wish it were practiced more often. Too often we injure each other and think nothing of it, not considering the damage that's done.
Norbert
(6,039 posts)Luke 18 -14
[9] To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: [10] "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. [11] The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men -- robbers, evildoers, adulterers -- or even like this tax collector. [12] I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'
[13] "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'
[14] "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
One of my favorites. Perhaps the valedictorian should read this a couple times s-l-o-w-l-y.
madrchsod
(58,162 posts)he firmly believed in the separation of church and state.
Iggo
(47,550 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Totally unacceptable.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)First of all, the "script" that he was supposed to follow was the speech that HE wrote and submitted for approval. They were fine with what he said he was going to way.
Second, you do know that what he did has been deemed unconstitutional by the SCOTUS, right? I mean, hey, let's just poo-poo this as school's being dictators, right? No need to actually worry about the 1st Amendment rights of the students at that ceremony. Screw that. Let this asshole do something unconstitutional when he said he wouldn't.
The lengths and contortions that people will go to in order to say that what this kid did was OK never cease to amaze me. That I have to read them on a progressive site makes it a little more disgusting.