No Christian loves their neighbor as they love themselves or loves God with all their heart

[standingtall]

Nor could they. Trying to do these things is not what makes someone a true Christian,but it will make you a failure.Christians are not capable of doing such things neither is anyone else for that matter. So Christians are to look to Christ the one who has loved his neighbor as he loved himself and loved God with all his heart. Christians are to put their faith in him and his righteousness is imputed or accredited to them.

[TexasProgresive]

1. And as St. John put it so clearly

King James Version
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

New International Version
19We love because he first loved us. 20Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

New American Bible
19 We love because he first loved us. 20 If anyone says, “I love God,” but hates his brother, he is a liar; for whoever does not love a brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21This is the commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

1John 4:19-21

[theophilus]

2. We may not do it perfectly, but we must try musn't we?

We are new creatures in Jesus Christ and we are created in Him to do Good Works. We trust in Him and believe. We are saved by Grace thru Faith but we are saved with a purpose. We will be judged by our works. We can not do works to be saved but we must work to remain saved. Paul said that the only thing that matters is faith working through love. Our one commandment as Christians is love our neighbor as we love ourselves. Doing that fulfills the Law of Christ. Simple to understand difficult to live.

[standingtall]

3. If we are going to be judge by our works then all will be found guilty and God demands perfection

and only Christ could achieve perfection. We will be judged by his work. Trying to keep the commandments= not keeping the commandments. You cannot love your neighbor as you love yourself and you cannot love God with all your heart those are impossible prerequisites designed to point you to the finished work of Christ not your own efforts. As Paul said Romans 4.4-5 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 10:4 for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

And this one here rules out working to remain saved

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Btw Grace means unmerited favor it is something you don't deserve. You don't do something to get it nor can you do anything to keep it it is a gift from God.

Don't get me wrong it is nice for Christians to do good works, but they shouldn't be done out of fear of going to hell or love of gain.

[theophilus]

4. The truth can be found but it is complicated enough to explain a lot of

the misunderstanding in the religious world.

As I said, we are saved by grace through faith. But we are saved to do Good Works prompted by love. Paul tells us that love is the greatest thing. James says that faith without works (prompted by love of course) is dead. So he and Paul obviously agree. James gave example of good works in providing for poor Christians, etc. This becomes clear when we look at the Judgment scene in Matthew 25:32ff. He addresses those who viewed Him as Lord but one group had not done the works that He demands.

Go through the entire NT and you will see the importance of faith working through love (for Christians, those in Christ) over and over culminating in Revelation. In 20:12:

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

And: 22:12 "Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.

Faith, love, and good works are intertwined. Those who do not love do not know God. Love works.

The examples are legion.

Don't confuse the works of the dead Jewish law with the love based works of the Law of Christ (Love your neighbor as yourself)

Romans is a letter that addresses the Jewish Christians (they had been under the old Law) and Gentile Christians (they had not). Most of the time the works that are referred to are the dead works of the Law such as clothing regulations and food regulations, etc. But Paul still sees the importance of keep the commandment. Look at Romans 13:8

Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.

and 9: The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not covet," and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

and 10: Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

John has been called the Apostle of Love but Paul is no less. John says that if we do not love our neighbor (fellow Christians first and foremost) then the love of God is not in us.

If our actions don't matter why do the New Testament writers warn people not to do bad things? They warn them over and over and over. They were writing to Christians. They also told Christians what they needed to be doing to have a part in the Kingdom of Heaven.

There is no eternal torment (Evangelical Hell). That is another subject.

The goal is Eternal Life. That is the good news. It is possible for those in Christ who obey their Master and work out their salvation with fear and trembling. Christ = God = Love = Good Works

This is an extensive subject. Much of modern Christianity has turned its back on love of neighbor (and even enemy). They have turned their backs on God.

I have no fear of Hell (eternal torment) or desire to do good for earthly gain. I desire to do good works to imitate my King and Master. I desire to lay up treasure in Heaven. I desire to live forever with Him. The eternal life has already started. A life of love is truly friendship and communion with God.

[standingtall]

5. The law is everything God everything ever commanded there is no scripture that says it is

Last edited Thu Jul 4, 2019, 07:07 PM - Edit history (11)

limited to the 613 Jewish dietary laws or the even the 10 commandments. One sin against God is all it takes to be condemned.

Jesus did not say try to love your God with all your heart. He didn't say try to love your neighbor as you love yourself. Trying=not doing. He gave a commandment not a suggestion. The only way you can be given credit for keeping these commandments is through the imputed righteousness of Christ.

The verse your paraphrasing is Philipians 2:12 here is that verse in it's context. Philipians 2:12-13 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

You don't do good works by looking for good works to do. Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Notice the contrast here Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Those people were not antinomians. They were religious people trusting in their own works as a means and evidence of salvation and Jesus said to them I never knew you.






In Matthew 25 they didn't even know what they did. Matthew 25:37-40 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Yes there is hell in terms of eternal punishment Jesus said so Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. I understand it may be not be a popular position, but the scripture is clear.

No what we do does not matter in terms of eternal salvation. Christianity is not about anything we do it is about what Christ did for us.


Here is what John said 1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

and Paul agrees Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.


2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

You need to understand the atonement. Who Christ is and his life. The bible is not a rule book full of do's and donts it is the testimony of Jesus Christ.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:



Those in Christ cannot be found to be anything but blameless.

The truth is not complicated at all believe Jesus Christ as he is revealed in scripture and nothing needs to be added to it.

[theophilus]

6. Good thoughts. I will respond to this in a bit but

I am at work today. If you have a Kindle I would recommend "Created for Good Works! God's Plan for Christians: Faith, Love, and Good Works" by H.K. Woodrow. It is simple to understand and traces the role of Faith, Love, and Good Works throughout the New Testament with emphasis on what is taught to the first Christians. It's just .99!

[theophilus]

7. Sorry so long.

The law is everything God ever commanded there is no scripture that says it is

limited to the 613 Jewish dietary laws or the even the 10 commandments. One sin against God is all it takes to be condemned. 

There are 613 commands in the Law of Moses. That is the total for dietary and all of the other things that Peter said his people could not bear. It called it a yoke. Jesus obeyed and fulfilled all of those laws and was raised from the dead to die no more. We are saved because he did what He did and offers us the opportunity to believe in Him and become a part of Him when we become Christians (part of His body and given His Spirit. The Old Law is no longer in effect. Christians follow the Law of Christ.

Christians are not under the “10 Commandments” except as they are embodied by “Love your neighbor as yourself”. That takes care of all of the ethical commands. The Sabbath and the myriad process commands were done away with as useless in love. Sin was made manifest in the Law. Christ has done away with the power of sin.

Jesus did not say try to love your God with all your heart. He didn't say try to love your neighbor as you love yourself. Trying=not doing. He gave a commandment not a suggestion. The only way you can be given credit for keeping these commandments is through the imputed righteousness of Christ. 

“Try” is not a part of the religious language of the first Christians. I will give you that. Very Yoda like. “Do or do not. There is no try.” But...the concept is there and applies to people in general although we might use other words. The concept of do is the important one.

Romans 12:18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.

Hebrews 12:14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.

I agree that in Christ we can do and not just try. We can do all things through Him, but we must be doing. The concept of being satisfied with sitting with our nose in the corner and praising Jesus is anti-Christian. We praise Him by doing Good Works. We don't do them to be seen of men but we DO them. We shine like the stars in a dark world. God demands that.

The verse your paraphrasing is Philipians 2:12 here is that verse in it's context. Philipians 2:12-13 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. 

Indeed He does. We are not just reservoirs for God's love we are conduits. We are His creation to do Good Works. All who do good works are not Christians but all Christians do Good Works.

You don't do good works by looking for good works to do. Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
 
This is a bizarre interpretation. We must see the need and do the Good Works.
1 John 3:17 If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person?

James 2:14 – 17 14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

Examples are almost endless of such teaching in the NT to Jews and to Christians.

Notice the contrast here Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 

Those people were not antinomians. They were religious people trusting in their own works as a means and evidence of salvation and Jesus said to them I never knew you. 

The problem was not “trusting in their own works”. All Christians know not to do that. The problem is that they left out LOVE. Paul said that without love the greatest faith is useless. Right? It makes total sense.

In Matthew 25 they didn't even know what they did. Matthew 25:37-40 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 

Of course they knew what they did. They just did not realize that when they did good to “the least of these” they were doing it to Jesus and when they did evil to “the least of these” they were doing evil to Jesus. We, as a culture, should know this. We have no excuse today. Judgment was determined by what they had done and by what they had left undone while claiming Jesus as Lord. Shooting abortion doctors is not a good thing although some, no doubt, claim that it is. Depriving people of healthcare is a bad thing.

Yes there is hell in terms of eternal punishment Jesus said so Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. I understand it may be not be a popular position, but the scripture is clear. 

Look at all of the New Testament written to Chrisians and to sermons given to non-believers. I think that eternal torment would have been a prominent warning. Destruction is talked about. The Jewish system was about to be wiped away by the Romans. Those who were not in Christ were going to be destroyed, etc. Eternal torment is not spoken of in clear understandable terms anywhere.

Eternal life is. That is the good news. We have that chance. All others will be done. (This is a very deep subject but just look at Paul's sermons to pagans. What does he say about eternal torment, etc?

No what we do does not matter in terms of eternal salvation. Christianity is not about anything we do it is about what Christ did for us.

What we do (apart from believing, repenting, etc.) does not matter to BEING SAVED. We are saved by grace (no matter what) through faith, or “the faith”. But we will be judged on what we DO as Christians. We can fall away. We can become lost. Many examples and all of the warnings to do this and not do that. All is summed up in loving others and growing and abounding in that love, and faith, and good works.

Here is what John said 1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 

and Paul agrees Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 

We are under the Law of Christ, the Perfect Law of Liberty (Love)

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 

You need to understand the atonement. Who Christ is and his life. The bible is not a rule book full of do's and donts it is the testimony of Jesus Christ. 

I understand. Jesus led the perfect life and is the perfect sacrifice. We are created in Him to follow in His steps and “go about doing good” to bring glory to His name.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 

2 Peter 3:14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him.

Philippians 2:12 - 12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
14Do everything without grumbling or arguing, 15so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.” c Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky 16as you hold firmly to the word of life. And then I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain. 


The concept of doing things is clear in the verses given. “So that you may become blameless” is eyecatching. He is writing to Christians. We must be faithful to the Law of Christ if we are hoping to be found blameless and inherit eternal life at the judgment.



Those in Christ cannot be found to be anything but blameless. 

The truth is not complicated at all believe Jesus Christ as he is revealed in scripture and nothing needs to be added to it.

Indeed. The religion of nearly 2000 years has clouded the issue. I hope these thoughts will benefit. Do look at “Created for Good Works! God's Plan for Christians: Faith, Love, and Good Works” by H.K. Woodrow on Amazon for Kindle. May God Bless you in your search for Truth. Never stop searching, even when you think you have found It.

[standingtall]

8. Christ fulfilled the whole law period including loving God with all his heart and loving his

Last edited Mon Jul 8, 2019, 06:20 PM - Edit history (2)

neighbor as he loved himself. Christ not only died for his sheep he lived for them too and he lived the perfect life something no one beside him could possibly do and his righteousness is imputed to his sheep.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord

Jesus fulfilled loving his neighbor as he loved himself.


Deuteronomy 6:5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Jesus already fulfilled this one too.


James 2:14 – 17 14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

James is typically one of the first places people go when they want to argue for works especially James 2:24, but he also said


James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

So if you chose to measure yourself by the law such as loving your neighbor as you love yourself or loving God with all your heart. Then you will fail and will be found guilty of everything because your not Jesus. Or you can chose to accept that Christ has fulfilled the entire law of behalf of his sheep.



"I agree that in Christ we can do and not just try. We can do all things through Him, but we must be doing. The concept of being satisfied with sitting with our nose in the corner and praising Jesus is anti-Christian. We praise Him by doing Good Works. We don't do them to be seen of men but we DO them. We shine like the stars in a dark world. God demands that."

No you cannot Jesus was fully God and fully man which is why he could do what he did and you can't. The righteousness of Christ is imputed or accredited not infused into you there is a big difference. Denying his finish work on the cross is anti-Christ. He came here in the role of savior not as a helper or an assistant. Your arguing that Jesus built a bridge and left it up to us to do the rest. Or he ran into the 4th floor of a burning building and carried you to the first floor and left it up to you from there. Nah Jesus is an absolute savior. His mission was to fulfill the law and atone for our sins.


"The problem was not “trusting in their own works”. All Christians know not to do that. The problem is that they left out LOVE. Paul said that without love the greatest faith is useless. Right? It makes total sense."


Nothing in this passage suggest they weren't loving enough they obviously thought they were boasting of casting out demons.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


They reason reason Jesus said he never knew wasn't because they weren't loving enough but because they did not do his father will.

The will of the Father is this John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The will is you belief on the Son.

"Hebrews 12:14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord."

All Christians will see the Lord,because Christ is Holy and his Holiness belongs to them.


"Look at all of the New Testament written to Chrisians and to sermons given to non-believers. I think that eternal torment would have been a prominent warning. Destruction is talked about. The Jewish system was about to be wiped away by the Romans. Those who were not in Christ were going to be destroyed, etc. Eternal torment is not spoken of in clear understandable terms anywhere.

Eternal life is. That is the good news. We have that chance. All others will be done. (This is a very deep subject but just look at Paul's sermons to pagans. What does he say about eternal torment, etc?"

I don't think Paul would disagree with Jesus so an argument from silence is of no effect Galatians 1:11-12 11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.


I honestly don't believe going to the grave for all eternity is much of an improvement unless your a universalist and you belief everyone will be saved, if your a universalist why are you debating for works sense they wont matter anyway?


"What we do (apart from believing, repenting, etc.) does not matter to BEING SAVED. We are saved by grace (no matter what) through faith, or “the faith”. But we will be judged on what we DO as Christians. We can fall away. We can become lost. Many examples and all of the warnings to do this and not do that. All is summed up in loving others and growing and abounding in that love, and faith, and good works."

I agree Christians can fall away, but only for a time and not for a lack of good works, but by not staying in faith and sense God has objective unconditional love for the sheep of Christ he will bring them back.


"Philippians 2:12 - 12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
14Do everything without grumbling or arguing, 15so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.” c Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky 16as you hold firmly to the word of life. And then I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain.


The concept of doing things is clear in the verses given. “So that you may become blameless” is eyecatching. He is writing to Christians. We must be faithful to the Law of Christ if we are hoping to be found blameless and inherit eternal life at the judgment."

The salvation of Christians has already been worked out on the cross of Calvary. That fact that Paul uses the the words fear and trembling could easily be understood as a warning against trying to work out your own salvation especially sense it goes on to say For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Clearly predestinarian.

You don't do good works by looking for good works to do. Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

"This is a bizarre interpretation. We must see the need and do the Good Works. "

Not a bizarre interpretation at all again this is a clearly predestinarian. God has already ordained those works so they are going to happen regardless unless you belief an all powerful God's plan can fail.

"Of course they knew what they did. They just did not realize that when they did good to “the least of these” they were doing it to Jesus and when they did evil to “the least of these” they were doing evil to Jesus. We, as a culture, should know this. We have no excuse today. Judgment was determined by what they had done and by what they had left undone while claiming Jesus as Lord. Shooting abortion doctors is not a good thing although some, no doubt, claim that it is. Depriving people of healthcare is a bad thing."

Shooting abortion doctors and taking healthcare away are horrible.things Anti-abortion people do these things partly, because their works religionist. Which is why I don't fancy any form of works religion including trying to be more loving.

[theophilus]

9. Thank you for your responses. I wish you well. n/t