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Sun Nov 29, 2015, 07:55 AM

Journal of Neuroscience: Mindfulness Meditation Decreases Pain more than placebo

Summary of the findings:

Recent findings have demonstrated that mindfulness meditation significantly reduces pain. Given that the “gold standard” for evaluating the efficacy of behavioral interventions is based on appropriate placebo comparisons, it is imperative that we establish whether there is an effect supporting meditation-related pain relief above and beyond the effects of placebo.

Here, we provide novel evidence demonstrating that mindfulness meditation produces greater pain relief and employs distinct neural mechanisms than placebo cream and sham mindfulness meditation. Specifically, mindfulness meditation-induced pain relief activated higher-order brain regions, including the orbitofrontal and cingulate cortices. In contrast, placebo analgesia was associated with decreased pain-related brain activation.

These findings demonstrate that mindfulness meditation reduces pain through unique mechanisms and may foster greater acceptance of meditation as an adjunct pain therapy.

http://www.jneurosci.org/content/35/46/15307.short

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Reply Journal of Neuroscience: Mindfulness Meditation Decreases Pain more than placebo (Original post)
ellenrr Nov 2015 OP
enough Nov 2015 #1
greymattermom Nov 2015 #2
enough Nov 2015 #7
longship Nov 2015 #3
Ichingcarpenter Nov 2015 #4
enough Nov 2015 #8
Myrth Nov 2015 #5
Ichingcarpenter Nov 2015 #6
Duppers Nov 2015 #9
Ichingcarpenter Nov 2015 #10
Thor_MN Dec 2015 #11
Ichingcarpenter Dec 2015 #12
Thor_MN Dec 2015 #13
bananas Dec 2015 #14
Thor_MN Dec 2015 #15
bananas Dec 2015 #17
Thor_MN Dec 2015 #18
bananas Dec 2015 #19
Thor_MN Dec 2015 #20
bananas Dec 2015 #16

Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Sun Nov 29, 2015, 08:07 AM

1. I can't get to the article at the link, but I'd be curious to know

how they define the difference between mindfulness meditation and sham mindfulness meditation.

This sounds like snark, but I don't mean it that way. In the context of the experiment, it would be interesting to know what were the characteristics of the "real" mediation that the sham meditation did not have.

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Response to enough (Reply #1)

Sun Nov 29, 2015, 08:15 AM

2. It's a very mainstream journal

and very hard to get anything published there. I'm sure the science is solid and can get the pdf if anyone want to read it.

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Response to greymattermom (Reply #2)

Sun Nov 29, 2015, 07:45 PM

7. As I said in my question, I was asking a serious question, not doubting the science or the Journal

in which it was published. It is exactly because I assume the science is solid that I am asking my question. The fact that I assume the science is solid is what makes me interested in the question.

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Response to enough (Reply #1)

Sun Nov 29, 2015, 08:38 AM

3. That would be my immediate question, too.

I think it is wise to wait for peer review on this one.


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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Sun Nov 29, 2015, 08:48 AM

4. Mindfulness training is used by major corporations such as Google and Apple


Believe it or not Monsanto started using it first but then people started quitting Monsanto so they tossed the program

I've posted many stories on this on DU but search for yourself

TM has been used in San Francisco's toughest school with great results which is mindfulness training

I use mindfullness for pain and depression it works

The school ....

http://www.theguardian.com/teacher-network/2015/nov/24/san-franciscos-toughest-schools-transformed-meditation

Its not woo.....

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Reply #4)

Sun Nov 29, 2015, 07:48 PM

8. I do not assume that it is woo. That is why I'm wondering about the question of

exactly how they designed the difference between the treatment and the placebo. If I thought it was woo, I would not be interested in that question.

I regularly use meditation for pain control. So regularly that I barely even think about it.

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Sun Nov 29, 2015, 11:25 AM

5. Of course

People who practice meditation knew this already. But it is nice to be scientifically validated. Insurance companies should pay for instruction in meditation techniques. It could save considerable money in reduced pain medication prescriptions and subsequent addiction treatment.

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Response to Myrth (Reply #5)

Sun Nov 29, 2015, 11:38 AM

6. C.G. Jung

“Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate.”
― C.G. Jung

. Mindfulness meditation - no matter how described - is only realized through a first person investigation.

"You will not be punished for your anger,
you will be punished BY your anger."

Buddha

Mindfulness training, like I said, major corporations have spent millions on it.

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Reply #6)

Mon Nov 30, 2015, 04:45 AM

9. Excellent quotes.

Thx.

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Response to Duppers (Reply #9)

Mon Nov 30, 2015, 05:34 AM

10. Even 'the placebo effect' is a form of mindfulness in a way

Since it is a real phenomena which the mind manifests. in controlled studies.




Harvard Medical School
Putting the placebo effect to work

http://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/putting-the-placebo-effect-to-work

I'm glad that mindfulness training has been shownsuperior to the placebo effect in this scientific study

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Mon Dec 7, 2015, 02:17 PM

11. So the conclusion is that Mindfulness Meditation works better for pain than doing nothing?

 

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Response to Thor_MN (Reply #11)

Mon Dec 7, 2015, 02:56 PM

12. no it works better than the placebo effect

the placebo effect may work in cases such as
Depression
Pain
Sleep disorders
Irritable bowel syndrome
Menopause


The fact that the placebo effect is tied to expectations doesn't make it imaginary or fake. Some studies show that there are actual physical changes that occur with the placebo effect. For instance, some studies have documented an increase in the body's production of endorphins, one of the body's natural pain relievers.

http://www.webmd.com/pain-management/what-is-the-placebo-effect?page=2

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Reply #12)

Mon Dec 7, 2015, 03:04 PM

13. The placebo IS doing nothing. The placebo effect is based on faith that something is being done.

 


The point being that study did not compare to any actual pain medications, so it does "something" but that something can not be compared to any medications.

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Response to Thor_MN (Reply #13)

Mon Dec 7, 2015, 09:44 PM

14. The placebo is NOT "doing nothing"

There are many studies which use both no treatment and placebo controls.

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Response to bananas (Reply #14)

Mon Dec 7, 2015, 10:00 PM

15. The placebo is inert, therefore doing nothing.

 

The placebo effect is the subject believing something is being done.

It is inarguable the placebo is doing nothing, it is precisely chosen to have no effect.

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Response to Thor_MN (Reply #15)

Wed Dec 9, 2015, 09:32 AM

17. That's not correct.

First, not all placebos are inert - for example, "active placebos" contain substances which cause side effects. In some drug trials, active placebos are chosen intentionally for their effects, because drug effects can unblind the test. Active placebos tend to be more effective than inert placebos.

Second, placebos work even if the patient is told it's just a placebo - the placebo effect occurs even if the patient knows "nothing is being done".

The placebo effect is NOT "the subject believing something is being done."

The term "placebo" is from Latin, it means "to please", and the "placebo effect" was given that name because the patient seems to be unconsciously responding to the doctors expectations "to please" the doctor.

This works both ways - if the patient is given negative expectations, the patients condition may worsen in response - this is sometimes called the nocebo effect, although it is still a placebo effect.

It's a real effect, and even affects people who don't believe it such as yourself.

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Response to bananas (Reply #17)

Wed Dec 9, 2015, 07:27 PM

18. You are comingling the term "Placebo" with the term "Placebo Effect".

 

The terms are not interchangeable and you don't seem to know what you are talking about.

Please cite what "active placebos" were used in the OP study.

I'll wait...

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Response to Thor_MN (Reply #18)

Thu Dec 10, 2015, 04:16 AM

19. You're comingling "no treatment" with "placebo".

The terms are not interchangeable and you don't seem to know what you are talking about.

The placebo is given to measure and control for the placebo effect.

It is not the same as "no treatment" or "doing nothing".

The OP didn't include no treatment or active placebo groups.

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Response to bananas (Reply #19)

Thu Dec 10, 2015, 07:42 AM

20. The active placebo that you seem to not understand does nothing for the condition being studied.

 

There are active ingredients TO FOOL the subject into thinking they did not get a placebo. However, the active ingredients DO NOTHING for the condition being studied, or it would not be a placebo.

By definition, a placebo does nothing for the condition being studied. The seemingly only thing that you say right, but don't understand is : "The placebo is given to measure and control for the placebo effect."

Going back to my original point, the study did not include an active pain medication, so while it can be said that Mindful Meditation is better than just meditation, or treatment that has no active ingredients (can you live with that as opposed to treatment that does nothing?), no conclusion can be draw how Mindful Meditation compares to any type of actual pain medication. For all we know from this study. The placebo effect could give a 1 on a scale of 1 to 100 for pain relief. Mindful Meditation could give a 2, while aspirin gives a 40 and opioids give an 80. Or it could be that Mindful Meditation gives a 50 and the drugs stay the same.

No way of telling because that wasn't studied and one should not take away the impression that rushing out to some quack peddling the latest fad in meditation is going to instantly cure their pain.

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Response to ellenrr (Original post)

Mon Dec 7, 2015, 10:32 PM

16. The reason pain control techniques were developed by the meditative traditions

was so they could enter deeper meditative states - requiring hours, days, weeks - without being distracted by physical discomfort.

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