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panader0

(25,816 posts)
Sat Jul 21, 2018, 10:42 PM Jul 2018

A little help please about the periodic table and more.

Let's take carbon, Atomic number 6. Two electron orbits, 2 and 4.
Bear with me because I'm a bit thick. Without going into valence
and other stuff I don't understand (yet), can someone tell me the speed
of the electrons and the amount of space between the electrons and nucleus?
Isn't most of matter space?
Can anyone recommend a book for the beginner?

9 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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A little help please about the periodic table and more. (Original Post) panader0 Jul 2018 OP
I can't answer that question myself, PoindexterOglethorpe Jul 2018 #1
this may help populistdriven Jul 2018 #2
"Understanding Physics", by Isaac Asimov sl8 Jul 2018 #3
How about browsing a wiki ? eppur_se_muova Jul 2018 #4
Someone once told me that if the nucleus of a hydrogen atom panader0 Jul 2018 #6
Two suggestions PJMcK Jul 2018 #5
The Bohr atomic model is misleading. hunter Jul 2018 #7
From my scientist friend: PoindexterOglethorpe Jul 2018 #8
There are bits of classical physics that are still somewhat useful to get a handle on scale caraher Jul 2018 #9

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,848 posts)
1. I can't answer that question myself,
Sun Jul 22, 2018, 01:44 AM
Jul 2018

but I'm forwarding it to a friend who might be able to do so.

In the meantime, I hope someone here can help.

sl8

(13,736 posts)
3. "Understanding Physics", by Isaac Asimov
Sun Jul 22, 2018, 10:06 AM
Jul 2018

I really liked Understanding Physics, by Isaac Asimov:

• Volume I: Motion, Sound, and Heat
• Volume II: Light, Magnetism, and Electricity
• Volume III: The Electron, Proton, and Neutron

eppur_se_muova

(36,259 posts)
4. How about browsing a wiki ?
Sun Jul 22, 2018, 11:17 AM
Jul 2018
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atom#Shape_and_size

Basic answer: yes, most of matter is empty space. The nucleus takes up a tiny portion of the volume of an atom, while fast-moving electrons define the effective "size" of the atom. When all the subatomic particles are crunched together under gravitational pressure in a neutron star, the result is a huge contraction in volume.

panader0

(25,816 posts)
6. Someone once told me that if the nucleus of a hydrogen atom
Sun Jul 22, 2018, 12:35 PM
Jul 2018

was as big as a dime, the sole electron would be a quarter of a mile away.
I plan on buying a periodic table and starting slow, learning about valency
and more.

hunter

(38,310 posts)
7. The Bohr atomic model is misleading.
Sun Jul 22, 2018, 03:50 PM
Jul 2018

Electrons are not little planets orbiting the nucleus at some "speed."

Like photons, electrons have wave-like properties and particle-like properties.

They can be modeled as a "cloud" of electrons around the nucleus, places where electrons imagined as particles are more likely.

I just found this:



If this sort of video annoys you, there's this:

https://www.beautifulchemistry.net/atomic-structure/

There are less complex models of atomic electron behavior useful in chemistry, for example atomic "orbital" models. (These were named before the quantum behavior of atomic electrons was understood.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_orbital

Here's an orbital representation of a sodium atom:



The "inner" 1s orbital is like a hydrogen or helium atom. The electron in a single hydrogen atom, or the two electrons in a helium atom, exist in a spherical cloud.

As you move up the periodic table you get electrons in the p orbitals. These electron "orbits" are not spherical, they form symmetrical lobes.

Then you get another spherical orbital... and so on, with more lobes of various shapes and more spheres.

Nobody starts out memorizing all this stuff at once. There's a lot of chemistry that can be understood using very simple atomic models.

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,848 posts)
8. From my scientist friend:
Mon Jul 23, 2018, 03:59 PM
Jul 2018
Velocity is poorly defined in this situation (it makes more sense to talk about potential energy and angular momentum), and position is a bit wonky. For well defined terms, also consider the 4 quantum numbers that come up in chemistry.

Amount of space between the electron and the nucleus is a bit fuzzy, but one should be able to talk about how far out the shells/orbitals are.

The mostly empty space aspect is somewhat complicated, but I'd go with "good enough."

I have no idea what a good book would be, so I'm going to default to the Feynman lectures. http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/ Depending on the person's background, the atomic structure portion of a chemistry textbook may make sense?

caraher

(6,278 posts)
9. There are bits of classical physics that are still somewhat useful to get a handle on scale
Wed Jul 25, 2018, 01:20 AM
Jul 2018

For instance, in the first Bohr orbit a classical electron (particle) in hydrogen would move in a circle of radius 0.53 angstroms (5.3 x 10^-11 m) at a speed of c/137 - a bit less than 1% of the speed of light. This tells us that we can model the ground state of hydrogen reasonably well as a first approximation ignoring special relativity and introduce it later as a perturbation.

As an atomic physicist, I like to joke that we understand just one atom, hydrogen, mainly because it's a simple system with exact solutions, and we can build a lot of intuitions starting there. So you want to extend to think about carbon. First, because carbon (ordinarily) is electrically neutral, there are as many electrons as protons - a total of six. Imagine taking all the electrons away and building the neutral carbon atom starting with a nucleus, then adding electrons one by one.

The first electron sees the bare nucleus - the chief differences from the hydrogen case are that the nucleus is more massive and has more charge (six times more, as there are 6 protons). Classically, we can model this ground state just like in hydrogen, but now the electron will be closer to the nucleus and will be moving faster (both thanks to the higher nuclear charge). Relativistic effects matter more but not all that much more; we can apply the same nonrelativistic quantum mechanics as we could for hydrogen and we end up finding that the lowest energy state has zero angular momentum (an "s" orbital).

Something similar happens when you add the 2nd electron - it will also end up in an s orbital. The energy will change a bit because the electrons repel one another electrostatically, but basically these first two electrons are in the same state except for one important detail: if you measure the orientation of the internal angular momentum of one ("spin" ), the other must have it directed in the opposite direction. In other words, their spins must be opposite, and this is because electrons are "fermions" - antisocial particles that refuse to share the exact same quantum state as other particles of their kind. The application in chemistry is called the Pauli exclusion principle.

As a side note, spin is a pretty mysterious yet fundamental property. I recall reading that Richard Feynman gave some criterion for understanding a concept that included being able to explain it with resort to advanced mathematics, and when challenged to explain spin, concluded something like, "I have to admit I don't understand spin."

Anyway, it turns out that for "spin-1/2" fermions like electrons, there are only ever two possible outcomes for a measurement of spin orientation (usually just called "up" and "down" ). So if we bring in a third electron and try to stuff it into the ground state, there is no way to do so without violating the exclusion principle. Quantum mechanics tells us the next lowest energy state also has zero angular momentum (which we'll now call "orbital" to distinguish this from the angular momentum of spin), but sits a bit farther out. We call the state the first two electrons are in "1s" orbitals and this new one "2s," where the numeral is the "principal quantum number" and which you can think of as roughly relating to the size of the orbital. You can stick a second electron (with opposite spin) into 2s for a total of 4 electrons in s orbitals.

It turns out that the next lowest energy state has the smallest possible nonzero orbital angular momentum. Those are called "p" orbitals, and we can stick our last two electrons in those. It also turns out that we can stuff up to 6 electrons in a given p orbital, because there are three possible outcomes for measurements of angular momentum along a given direction given the amount of angular momentum in a p orbital (we say it has 1 unit of angular momentum, and if I pick a direction for measurement, the possible outcomes are along that direction, perpendicular, or opposite - typically assigned values of +1, 0 and -1). For each of these, we independently have two possible measurements of spin, so there are 6 (3 orbital x 2 spin) ways to assign unique sets of quantum numbers to electrons in a p orbital.

To do speed "right" what you would want to do is apply to the mathematical representation of a given electron's orbital (the "wavefunction" ) a mathematical "operator" that represents speed. This yields something called an "expectation value," which is the most obvious stand-in for what you're looking to understand. Because an electron is equally likely to be moving left or right (or up vs. down, etc.) the average *velocity* will be zero; but the expected kinetic energy (and thus speed) will be nonzero. And the results will in general be different for the different electrons, but will be roughly on the order of 1% of the speed of light. The "inner" electrons will be faster, the outer electrons will be slower.

Similarly, because the electrons are not things one ought to regard as having definite positions, defining a distance to the nucleus is a tricky exercise. But there are still useful quantities to be had. The first thing to bear in mind is that electron orbitals are much larger than nuclei (whose sizes are typically of the order 10^-15 m, or 1/10000 of a typical electron orbital in effective radius). Because there is a nonzero probability of an s electron being found "exactly" at the location of the nucleus, one could argue that sometimes there is zero distance to the nucleus! (And this fact results in some interesting correction terms that arise in the energies and wavefunctions for s electrons.) But similar to speed, we can calculate an "expectation value" for a measurement of the electron's location relative to the nucleus, and the results will show the trends I've already described, and have values appropriately measured in units like angstroms or maybe picometers (trillionths of a meter) for inner electrons (and larger - sometimes very much larger! - for outer shell electrons).

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