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Sun Nov 29, 2015, 09:28 AM

Doggerland in the news again

Thanks to Demeter in good reads

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016138209#post2





Hunting for DNA in Doggerland, an Ancient Land Beneath the North Sea

http://www.wired.com/2015/11/hunting-for-dna-in-doggerland-an-ancient-land-beneath-the-north-sea/



.Archaeologists began looking at remote sensing data that these companies had gathered while seeking oil and gas. They had a 3D seismic dataset that shows distinct layers. “Imagine just cutting a nice big cake,” Gaffney says. “You can see the layers of sponge and cream—and of course on the bottom there’s oil in there somewhere.” The energy companies only care about the very bottom of the cake, but Gaffney and his colleagues focused on a layer closer to the frosting. Based on studies that had dated the sediment, they knew that between 30 and 50 meters under the sea floor lay the former surface of Doggerland.

Tracing this layer of sediment, the team mapped about 17,000 square miles of the drowned and buried country—an area, Gaffney says, “slightly larger than Holland.” In its topography they’ve found hills, coastlines, lakes and rivers. “But it’s a map without people at the moment, or animals or plants,” Gaffney says. That’s where the project’s next phase comes in.

The European Research Council recently awarded a team led by Gaffney a €2.5 million grant—about $2.6 million. Soon the scientists will head to sea. But they plan to do a lot more than just make maps. They’ll follow two of the country’s sunken river beds, taking core samples in search of pollen, fossils, insect remains, and other signs of life.

They’ll also hunt for ancient DNA. This technique is still new and somewhat controversial. In a paper in the journal Science last February, members of the same team described DNA they’d dug up at Bouldnor Cliff, a submerged site off the Isle of Wight. They found evidence of wheat from 8,000 years ago—about 2,000 years before farming arrived in mainland Britain. Other researchers argued that the wheat DNA must have been modern contamination. In the Doggerland samples, the team will look for DNA from crops or even domestic animals like sheep and goats. Gaffney says the findings might help identify the best spots to search for human archaeology—evidence of cleared areas, burning, or environments that would have made ideal settlements.

The samples will cover about 5,000 years of Doggerland’s history, from around 10,000 BC until the sea swallowed it...



Ghost Dog gave me this map in that OP
in which I added this



What's interesting with this timeline map is recent findings
View profile
The Ness of Brodgar archaeological site in the Orkney Islands is almost a thousand years older than Stonehenge and the center for Neolithic Britain and shares some of the same cultural artifacts found there.

Now if we look at your map you can see that these islands in Northern Scotland were once mountain regions of early Doggerland that was first area destroyed by the first stage of the flooding in the timeline. In fact the earliest record of Neolithic Britain are all almost found in Scotland with some exceptions.

If you notice in your map the largest major river system in Doggerland is east of the Orkney's which would be a desirable place for human settlement.
Suggesting that the Orkney mountains is where they fled to during the flood.







And this is the location of after flood settlements and Ness of Brodgar plus
The Ring of Brodgar which The site has resisted attempts at scientific dating and the monument's age remains uncertain.





Ring of Brodgar much older than Stonehenge




About the ring
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_of_Brodgar


The Ness of Brodgar reconstruction





The site today




wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ness_of_Brodgar


Also here

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2081254/Stone-Age-temple-Orkney-significant-Stonehenge.html


I think that a underwater study of that flooded river system would be interesting.




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Arrow 83 replies Author Time Post
Reply Doggerland in the news again (Original post)
Ichingcarpenter Nov 2015 OP
Judi Lynn Dec 2015 #1
germamba Aug 2016 #16
Judi Lynn Sep 2016 #21
germamba Sep 2016 #22
germamba Oct 2016 #29
Judi Lynn Feb 2017 #34
germamba Aug 15 #75
germamba Apr 2016 #2
Rhiannon12866 Apr 2016 #3
germamba Apr 2016 #4
Ichingcarpenter Apr 2016 #5
germamba Apr 2016 #6
germamba Apr 2016 #7
GeoWilliam750 Jun 2016 #10
germamba Sep 2016 #25
Judi Lynn Oct 2016 #27
Warpy Sep 1 #79
germamba Apr 2016 #8
Judi Lynn Jun 2016 #11
germamba Jun 2016 #9
germamba Jul 2016 #12
RegexReader Jul 2016 #13
germamba Aug 2016 #14
Judi Lynn Aug 2016 #15
germamba Sep 2016 #23
germamba Aug 2016 #17
germamba Aug 2016 #18
bluedigger Aug 2016 #19
germamba Sep 2016 #20
germamba Sep 2016 #24
germamba Oct 2016 #26
germamba Oct 2016 #28
germamba Oct 2016 #30
germamba Dec 2016 #31
Judi Lynn Dec 2016 #33
Judi Lynn Dec 2016 #32
germamba Jul 7 #35
Judi Lynn Jul 8 #36
germamba Jul 12 #37
Judi Lynn Jul 20 #38
germamba Jul 21 #40
Judi Lynn Jul 22 #41
germamba Jul 25 #43
germamba Jul 24 #42
Judi Lynn Jul 26 #44
germamba Jul 26 #45
Judi Lynn Jul 28 #46
germamba Jul 28 #47
Judi Lynn Jul 28 #48
germamba Jul 28 #49
Judi Lynn Aug 2 #51
germamba Aug 3 #52
germamba Aug 3 #53
Judi Lynn Aug 4 #55
germamba Aug 4 #56
germamba Aug 4 #57
germamba Aug 4 #58
germamba Aug 3 #54
Judi Lynn Aug 5 #60
Judi Lynn Aug 5 #59
germamba Aug 5 #61
Judi Lynn Aug 5 #62
germamba Aug 5 #63
Judi Lynn Aug 5 #65
germamba Aug 6 #66
germamba Aug 5 #64
germamba Aug 6 #67
germamba Aug 6 #68
Judi Lynn Aug 7 #69
germamba Aug 7 #70
germamba Aug 10 #71
germamba Sep 15 #83
germamba Jul 29 #50
germamba Jul 21 #39
germamba Aug 10 #72
germamba Aug 11 #73
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Warpy Aug 30 #76
germamba Sep 1 #77
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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Original post)

Tue Dec 1, 2015, 07:04 PM

1. The information and images demand to be studied. Completely wonderful. n/t

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Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #1)

Sat Aug 13, 2016, 11:08 AM

16. Reading another time

Hello!!!

I was reading again the posts related with my posts in democraticunderground and I've seen yours : "The information and images demand to be studied". I would like to say that if someday you know about some possibility to go studing and working about this kind of subject, I will be very please to receive information from you about this. Doggerland, Orkney and shetland interest me very very much. As an example of my passion about those places is: I define myself as an Orcadian born in Catalonia. I like a lot the history of Orkney (and around Orkney).

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Response to germamba (Reply #16)

Sat Sep 3, 2016, 02:19 AM

21. It's great to see your comments here. It appears that area has a real value for you.

This part of the world has such an ancient past, still so hidden from modern people. So much needs to be learned.

It would be breath-taking to walk through these sites. It is so easy to wonder how life looked during the time the structures were built, and used.

Here's google images' link to a lot of photos:

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1206&bih=568&q=orkney+islands&oq=Orkn&gs_l=img.1.0.0l10.1353.2682.0.7063.4.4.0.0.0.0.119.429.0j4.4.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..0.4.423.BwlPWGhk0cY

I intend to dive into these photos, and look at their sources when I can spend some time on it. It would be overwhelming to be there in person.

There's not any mystery about why you must love this entire area so much. I hope you will be returning there, again and again. You've awakened some eyes here already to a place we never knew about.

Thanks, to a real Catalonian Orcadian.

Wanted to post a quote from one of Ichingcarpenter's links regarding the Ring of Brogdar:

The monuments at the heart of Neolithic Orkney and Skara Brae proclaim the triumphs of the human spirit in early ages and isolated places. They were approximately contemporary with the mastabas of the archaic period of Egypt (first and second dynasties), the brick temples of Sumeria, and the first cities of the Harappa culture in India, and a century or two earlier than the Golden Age of China. Unusually fine for their early date, and with a remarkably rich survival of evidence, these sites stand as a visible symbol of the achievements of early peoples away from the traditional centres of civilisation...The Ring of Brodgar is the finest known truly circular late Neolithic or early Bronze Age stone ring and a later expression of the spirit which gave rise to Maeshowe, Stenness and Skara Brae[11]


Simply fascinating!

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Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #21)

Sat Sep 3, 2016, 06:33 AM

22. Passion for Orkney

Last edited Sat Sep 3, 2016, 03:28 PM - Edit history (7)

Hello!!

I write to confirm, as I think you imagine, that I'm in love (deeply) with Orkney. I assure that. Since I "discovered" Orkney, a new world started for me. I can't think in other things. I have Orkney always in my mind (and in my heart).

I say that ("a new world started for me" because I had a difficult life and I've found the place where I want to be (I need a new place to start a new life). Examples as a difficulties in my life: When I was 21 I had a terrible car accident -two months in coma, six years without working, loooooots of injuries, "friends" left me alone,....- and now I'm quite well. Thanks to God I have an excellent wife and I had two children (a girl and a boy). I can do almost a normal life; as a "memories" of my accident I have to say that I can't run, I see double to the right hand side, but I'M ALIVE. I appreciate a lot my life (and the one of my family) and I want to enjoy places where I am, and the appearance of Orkney in my life it's a miracle. It's where I would like to be until I die (as an old person), and I would like to be buried in Orkney. I have the sensation that I have lived there in other life, I have an special connection with Orkney. I think that I belong to that archipelago and I don't belong to the country I am now; I've born here, and doctors from here saved my life, but my heart and my mind are in Orkney.

When I stayed in Kirkwall (from 01/07/2016 to 09/07/2016. I worked -and enjoyed a lot- in the Ness of Brodgar and in The Cairns, in South Ronaldsay), while I was going to Kirkwall from the B&B where I was (9 Craigifield) I saw that the shore was dirty of all kind of rubbish and I have written to Orkney (I don't know if to the correct place) to offer myself to clean all the coastline of Kirkwall, of Mainland, of all Orkney. I don't know what to do to go there for living.

I know that I have a family here (I'll never forget them), but I'll come every time as I can to see them. My heart is broken in two parts; one half for my family and the other part for Orkney.

I've tried, too, to open a travel agency to go only to Orkney from Spain. But I don't have experience, I don't have contacts, I'm not an official tourist guide, and all those things "go against me". I don't know how can I convert my passion for Orkney as my way of living.

If you send me a private message to germa@c-mobil.cat , I'll send you a link to a "book" (201 pages) I've done about my travel to Orkney. That book has few writing, but lots of photos. I'm sure you will enjoy it.

I've changed my opinion. Here you have the link to access to the English version of "my book":

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1-kRZok08ylUTqb4YXiitpX7laMuePKcigX-BC7Rogsw/edit?usp=sharing


Enjoy it!!! (Except my honeymoon, it's the best travel I've ever done)

LAST QUESTION: Where are you from?

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Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #21)

Sun Oct 23, 2016, 01:51 PM

29. Question

Hello!!

I don't know if you'll read this message sometimes (or maybe you won't read never).

I would like to know about some persona to speak about my teories of the creation of Orkney Islands. Can you say me, please?

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Response to germamba (Reply #16)

Thu Feb 9, 2017, 01:58 AM

34. I found this article today: Orkneys Skara Brae shortlisted as UKs best heritage site

Orkney’s Skara Brae shortlisted as UK’s best heritage site




Skara Brae, Orkney. PIC Donald MacLeod/TSPL ALISON CAMPSIE

11:04 Wednesday 08 February 2017



The prehistoric village of Skara Brae on Orkney is in the running to be named the best heritage site in the UK.

The 5,000-year-old settlement is the only Scottish visitor attraction on the shortlist drawn up by travel writer Bill Bryson for the BBC Countryfile Magazine Awards.

Bryson described Skara Brae as “miraculously preserved” and said it looked as it had been vacated “only yesterday.”

He said: “Orkney has the greatest concentration of archaeological sites in Scotland, but none is more arresting than this miraculously preserved Neolithic village.

Read more at: http://www.scotsman.com/news/orkney-s-skara-brae-shortlisted-as-uk-s-best-heritage-site-1-4361031

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Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #1)

Sat Aug 15, 2020, 04:03 AM

75. I don't want to create a friendship

Last edited Mon Aug 17, 2020, 05:13 AM - Edit history (8)

Sorry. But I know myself. Sure I'm going to think too much and dedicate too much time to it. I don't want it.

We can write in this web, but nothing else.

Life and people showed me that (in my life) it's better being alone, only with my family. The same as I did in my last visit to Orkney: I went alone everywhere.

Sorry again. There is nothing against you, against nobody. But is what I want.

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Original post)

Mon Apr 4, 2016, 03:21 AM

2. Presentation

Hello,

My name's Germà Martín. I'm from a village near Barcelona.

My written English is not as good as it would be needed, but I can't do anything else. I studied English few years.

I'm in love with Orkney Islands since I visited on 2012. I'm interested about nearly everything related with Orkney. I think that since my visit there I've found my place in the world, where I had been born instead where I'm living now. I have passion for those islands.

One of the most interesting thougths I created for myself about Orkney is a theory that buildings in mainland (as Skara Brae) are older than we think now. I recovered this theory when I saw your picture about Doggerland. This "theory" is that this kind of buildings were created when Shetland, Orkney and Mainland were communicated by land and, because that, the bottom of the North Sea (or Atlantic) is full of old building remains.

I don't know if people from Neolithic used to use "ships" (or similar) to move between islands but the similarities I saw on internet about constructions in Shetland and Orkney (and I don't know if anywhere else) have a longer antiquity and makes me think what I said about those isles.

That's my way to understand the history about these lands, from the distance. And another thing that I loved in my visit to Orkney and my previous visit to Scotland's mainland is the respect that people have to the remains of our history.

Could we have a talk about those origins? What do you think? Or do I have to talk with other person about this? If so, can you give me the way of contacting him/her, please?

Thanks for your attention.

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Response to germamba (Reply #2)

Mon Apr 4, 2016, 03:53 AM

3. Welcome to DU, germamba!

And thank you for your interesting and informative post. This is a fairly old discussion, but I'm hoping you get some more replies. It's great to have you with us and your English is just fine!

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Original post)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 12:10 PM

4. New question

Hello!!

First of all, I have to say you that I ignore nearly everything about Doogerland and its relations with Orkney.

I would like to know if someboy has ever studied the possibility of Shetland and Orkney had been communicated by land and people lived in the land that was between these archipielagos.

I think that because I think, too, that Neolithic people didn't know how to navigate and i think that there are lots of similarities between Orkney and Shetland.

Another question: are there building like Skara Brae, as an example, away from Orkney and Shetland? I think that because the land of Doogerland was so big and there might be buildings very similars in that zone.

Do you know if there is any possibility to go working somewhere about Orkney, Shetland and Doogerland?

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Response to germamba (Reply #4)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 12:50 PM

5. Well, I'll give you a short conjecture and suppositions

On this matter that might take you further in your studies and inquires.

1. Younger Dryas period has now been proven to be caused by either a comet hit or meteor hit, which caused the melting of the last ice age so you need to look at the time frame and also the implications of what this great disaster did to any pre existing humans and even boat technologies that they might have had ........ things got lost when the sea level goes up 400 feet.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Younger_Dryas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Younger_Dryas_impact_hypothesis

2. The Stonehenge culture is now thought to come from Northern Scotland and all the areas you discuss.
Think about that for second.


3. We know now that sea travel has been around for 10s of thousands of years, South america genetics and
also Australia findings show this with new studies.
I think some of my threads documented some of these findings.


4. You have to ask yourself as far as this Scottish site.

Why would they settle on such a narrow spit of land?
For food, hunting, clothing etc It makes no sense


Did they fear sea raiders?................ which means sea travel was happening

Or was this not the high ground at one time and had a bigger area to support all the things they were doing ?


Also listen to this podcast with graham hancock and randall carlson.......



Hope I pointed you in the your adventures.

Megalithic culture fascinates me especially after being a construction foreman at one time.

Oh, And don't forget to study Gobekli Tepe
because its time frame is important too.

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Reply #5)

Tue Apr 5, 2016, 06:52 PM

6. I've read few lines but....

Last edited Wed Jul 27, 2016, 10:30 AM - Edit history (4)

I give my opinion in italic letters:

Can be that impack (Younger Dryas) the cause of the sunami that may be the cause of the increase of sea level? (in my opinion this sunami was the cause of the disappearance of Neolithic places between Scotland's Mainland and Orkney and Stheland.

I agree with you with the cause of the disappearance of land between Mainlnd, Orkney and Shetland. In my opinion, that part of land (what now is the bottom of the North Sea) is full of Neolithic ruins and the buildings we know as Skara Brae are olders than we think know because, if they have been constructed when Orkney and Shetland were communicated by land, using the map of Doogerland you have at the top of this page, it seems to be constructed around 7000 BC.


What do you know about sailing of Neolothic man? Thay had any kind of boats?
About this question, I think that they don't had boats. They communicated with other isles of Orkney (or other archipielagos as Shetland) by foot. I think that using the example of the Egyptians (a little bit later than Neolithic people): they were more and more advanced than Neolithic man (in those time). Comparing the complexity of Egyptian buildings with Orkney's Neolithic buildings and doing the same comparation with boats, I think that Neolithic people hadn't boats, and if they had it, they were very simple.

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Response to germamba (Reply #6)

Fri Apr 8, 2016, 05:35 AM

7. I think this could be interesting

Last edited Sun Apr 17, 2016, 09:40 AM - Edit history (2)

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-12244964



and

Time Team S20 special - britains stone age tsunami




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Response to germamba (Reply #7)

Thu Jun 30, 2016, 01:49 AM

10. Fascinating

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Response to germamba (Reply #7)

Wed Sep 7, 2016, 11:59 AM

25. Another documentary

Time Team Special 26 (2007) - Britain's Drowned World



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Response to germamba (Reply #25)

Wed Oct 5, 2016, 12:03 PM

27. What a great surprise! I didn't see this video was available here until a moment ago.

It's going to be excellent watching this later this evening, when I can put everything aside to concentrate on it.

You are doing us a real favor in sharing it. Thank you, so much.

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Reply #5)

Tue Sep 1, 2020, 05:24 PM

79. If you're interested in megalithic culture

search out "Standing with Stones" on You Tube, it's a 2 hour documentary/speculative history from the Beeb that makes a lot more sense than Hancock does. In addition, it's a great travelog of megalithic sites around western Europe.

Of course, one of the earliest megalithic sites is Gobeckli Tepe in Turkey. At least they've mostly stopped calling it a temple. I've wondered about traces of paint that might have been in the lowest parts of the excavation, those carvings just cry out for paint, IMO, and we know there had already been a long history of that by the time the first circle had been erected there.

I honestly see a lot of early megaliths, the simple standing stones, as the way neolithic farmers decreased the footprint of large boulders that were in the way of easily planting an area--dig a hole at one end, get the lads together with poles to lever the boulder into the hole, then wedge it upright and mostly out of the way, useful as landmarks and later as gnomons and perhaps leading to the circles that were used as observatories.

Then again, I see them as mostly practical people who needed to eat.

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Original post)

Tue Apr 26, 2016, 11:27 AM

8. Look at this!!! Is what I said you few weeks ago (the 5th of April).

Last edited Tue Apr 26, 2016, 01:30 PM - Edit history (1)

I didn't know anything about this, but I was thinking the correct assumption.

TITLE: 'Britain's Atlantis' found at the bottom of the North Sea -a huge undersea world swallowed by the sea in 6500 BC

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2167731/Britains-Atlantis-North-sea--huge-undersea-kingdom-swamped-tsunami-5-500-years-ago.html


NOTE: I have just seen that the information is from 02/07/2012. But I promise I didn't know anything about that information.

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Response to germamba (Reply #8)

Thu Jun 30, 2016, 02:08 AM

11. Thank you for sharing this link! Excellent. Welcome to D.U. n/t

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Original post)


Response to Ichingcarpenter (Original post)

Sun Jul 24, 2016, 09:00 AM

12. Returned from Orkney

Last edited Sat Aug 13, 2016, 11:09 AM - Edit history (6)

Hello!!

I have the pleasure to inform you that, two weeks ago, I returned of my trip to Orkney. I've been there for 7 days (plus 2 days travelling).

This "holidays" (I went there to work on the Ness of Brodgar and The Cairns) have been one of the most fascinating holidays I had in my life. I enjoyed a loooooooooooot my stay there.


--------

Speaking about other things, today I've found in Wikipedia (I suppose that the source of this information is serious) what I supposed to be Orkney thousands of years ago.

Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_Orkney under the "Paleolithic" title, confirms what I think about Orkney, Shetland and what is today the bottom of the North Sea between these two archipelagos.

I promise I didn't knew anything about this subject before posting. I'm honest.

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Original post)

Sun Jul 24, 2016, 11:33 AM

13. Wouldn't the ocean levels have also been reduced world wide so that

given the depths of the sea bottom of the Indonesian archipelago would it have been possible for man to have walked to Australia? The Korea Strait in the Sea of Japan also would have been dry land?

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Response to germamba (Reply #14)

Tue Aug 9, 2016, 03:11 AM

15. Very interesting information in your BBC article. Thank you.

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Response to germamba (Reply #14)

Sat Sep 3, 2016, 04:10 PM

23. You could go walking around Orkney by foot (long time ago)

As you can see in this image and comparing the water levels that had thousands of years ago.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9wbtU2b0_z6Zk1TbktGSHRxdHM/view?usp=sharing

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Response to germamba (Reply #18)

Mon Aug 22, 2016, 06:45 PM

19. You will need a photobucket. or similar account first.

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Original post)

Sun Sep 4, 2016, 12:23 PM

24. Photo of the Ness of Brodgar of 2016's summer

Last edited Fri Jul 24, 2020, 11:49 AM - Edit history (5)

Hello!!

I live a link of the Ness of Brodgar took this summer. There is a trench I've been working (at the left hand side, a narrow trench) that was created at the beginning of July. You can substitute the image you've put under the title "The site today", and that photo has changed a little bit as you can see in the new one. I only send for keeping your site updated.

Link is this one:





Thanks.

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Original post)

Tue Oct 4, 2016, 01:02 PM

26. When I find some information, I remember to put it here

Last edited Sun Oct 23, 2016, 03:43 PM - Edit history (8)

From: http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/mesolithic.htm


"At this time (7000BC) , however, the wooded landscape of Orkney would have been unrecognisable to modern Orcadians (the reason why there is so much petrol in Scotland). The sea-level was considerably lower - up to 30 metres lower - so today's green, rolling Orkney hills would have been the peaks of high ground."

The confirmation that, very probably, people walked to go all around the Orkney isles. And maybe, Shetland included. Because that there are such big number of similarities between those archipelago. That confirms my theory I couldn't discuss with anybody.

===============
ANOTHER ARTICLE. This time from http://www.lagranepoca.com/archivo/24912-descubren-doggerland-una-atlantida-sumergida-frente-costas-del-reino-unido.html

The MAP is here:

The original article is in Spanish language. For me (and maybe for some people more) it's more useful reading it in Spanish because I can't speak and understand too much well English to understood everything. I translated it with Google Translator's help.

"A vast underwater area in the North Sea, called Doggerland, might once have been home to tens of thousands of people in the Stone Age, before it disappeared in a tsunami, according to 15 years of research by UK scientists.

Doggerland stretched from northern Scotland to Denmark and down towards the Channel Islands. However, gradually it plunged from 18,000 to 5,500 B.C.

"Doggerland was the real heart of Europe until sea levels rose to show the coast of the UK today," said geophysicist Richard Bates, at the University of St. Andrews, in a statement.

"We had speculated for years about the existence of a lost land dredged by fishermen around the North Sea bones, but only when you start working with oil companies in recent years, we were able to recreate what this seemed lost land, "adds Richard Bates.

With geophysical computational models and the material collected from the seabed, including fossils of plants and animals that lived Doggerland, scientists reconstructed a huge and complex landscape.

"We were able to model its flora and fauna, create an image of the ancient people who lived there and begin to understand some of the dramatic events that subsequently changed the land, including rising sea levels and a devastating tsunami," reported Bates.

Initially, Doggerland was mountainous with rivers, large lakes and an interlaced coastline, but as sea levels rose, he transformed in an archipelago of low islands.

Other interesting reports include a mass grave gigantic standing stones, and possible human burial sites.

"We have not found an 'X marks the spot' or 'Joe created this', but we have found many artifacts submerged with features that are very difficult to explain by natural disasters such as mounds surrounded by ditches and fossilized tree trunks causes the seabed", Bates said.

"In reality, there is little evidence" (...) "because much of it has eroded underwater, is like trying to find just one part of a needle in a haystack."

"What we have found is however, a significant amount of evidence and we are now able to identify the best places to find preserved signs of life."

Images and objects are now on display in an exhibition called "Drowned Landscapes" at the annual Summer Exhibition of the Royal Scientific Society of London."


---------

An image about the effects of the tsunami (the increasing of water levels since the tsunami):



----------
Two more interesting photos about the Storegga Slide:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9wbtU2b0_z6ZWJ3c1E0NEFNZEk/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9wbtU2b0_z6aGlMdnRwZFBlRVU/view?usp=sharing

-----------

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Original post)

Fri Oct 7, 2016, 12:07 PM

28. A friend of mine gave me this information about Doggerland

Exploring DNA Doggerland, a piece of submerged Europe



When trawling became widespread, the North Sea fishermen began to draw strange things from the cold waters separating Britain from the European continent. Mammoth tusks, antlers aurochs, remains of woolly rhinos and even prehistoric tools, submerged after the last Ice Age.

It was in September 1931, when a ship found a barbed harpoon over 13,000 years, archaeologists realized the archaeological potential of the area. Doggerland is the name by which it is known to the vast landmass that connected Britain's east coast to the coast of the Netherlands, Denmark and Germany. A green place full of oaks where the first inhabitants hunted and gathered and the last were beginning to understand agriculture.



After the last glacial period, Doggerland was gradually submerging into an island. But it was not the sea-level rise causing her to disappear. Circa 6200. C., the sea swallowed definitely. Scientists believe that the disappearance of Doggerland came after the largest submarine landslide is known, the slip Storegga , triggering a huge tsunami. Waves up to 80 meters razed the coasts of the North Atlantic.

8000 years later, archaeologists from the University of Bradford are mired in the task of making a complete map of Doggerland. Seismic data used by oil companies, which modeled the 3D area to search for gas and oil. The oil were only interested in the deeper layers of those maps, but archaeologists have set in from outside. Between 30 and 50 meters below the seabed sediments are old Doggerland.

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--ME5ddKA6--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/l2luzf3am92w4172ajjf.jpg

Researchers have managed to map 44,000 square kilometers of land submerged, "a larger than Holland country." They found hills, coasts, lakes and rivers. Now it's put on the map the fauna, flora and human settlements that existed in the area since 10,000 BC until it was flooded. To do this, scientists excavate Doggerland for DNA of crops and animals, both wild and domestic.

Studying the DNA will be like turning the North Sea in a time machine. During his last 5,000 years of history, Doggerland saw its inhabitants change hunting by agriculture, and climate change also caused changes in vegetation. DNA now allow us to see how everything happened.

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Original post)

Mon Oct 24, 2016, 03:37 AM

30. Suppositions

Last edited Tue Oct 25, 2016, 06:11 AM - Edit history (16)

Hello!!

First of all, I have to say that I don't have any formation about archaeology. I like it very much but I don't have too much knowledges about that science. I'm doing this because I'm in love with Orkney (deeply in love; any other place of the few I known in the world attracted me as much as Orkney) and because there are lots of things I can't find explanation to understand it.

I'm going to expose my suppositions about the age of the Ness of Brodgar (and all the zone around it) because there are a lot of things that I can't fit in the chronology I organised about that wonderful place.

I'm going to correct my comments and contribute with other ones little by little, and correcting the ones which have wrong information.

I would like to know, too, if possible, the conditions of Orkney after the tsunami: if water was deep enough to allow the transport of huge stones from the quarry next to Skara Brae to the Stones of Stennes, because the kind of stone which the Stones of Stenness are done is the rock from that quarry. I think that the transport from the quarry to Stenness wasn't by boat. And that makes me to have a doubt about the age of the Ness of Brodgar, the Stones of Stenness and the effectivity of radicarbon dating. CONFIRMED WITH THE COMMENT IN THE NEXT PARAGRAPH.

I have found confirmation about my theory (obviously recognizing that I'm not an specialist in this subject). This confirmation says: "... prior to around 1500BC, the Stenness loch didn't exist" (http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/brodgar/building.htm). Then, the rocks from Vestrafiold were transported by land. That confirmation makes me think that was is today the Loch of Stenness was a place with huge population and that confirms, again, why in the Ness of Brodgar have been found lots of bones of dead animals eated in some celebration there.

The route from Vestrafiold to The Stones of Stenness (a little bit difficult to drag the stones because ... "the area was wet marshy bog, surrounding pools of water or lochans. Not the best landscape to be dragging massive megaliths through".
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9wbtU2b0_z6dk9CSzNEbVRMX1E/view?usp=sharing
(the previous link is accessible if you have a gmail account)

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Original post)

Tue Dec 13, 2016, 02:58 PM

31. New discussion

Hello!!

I would like to start a new discussion about how old can be the Ness of Brodgar and places around it.

Someone is interested?

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Response to germamba (Reply #31)

Fri Dec 16, 2016, 12:47 AM

33. I would love to read more, found a page of notes on the dig done there this year:




http://www.orkneyjar.com/archaeology/nessofbrodgar/


I am happy to keep its link here, to come back later to read it.

I want to know as much as I can as this area seems to have answers which are unique, and not interchangeable with digs from other sites anywhere else. It looks as if this one is pursued long enough, there can be information which will transform what we have learned about the world.

If you find more, please post it!

If anyone else has more, please add it. This is a subject we can't forget, now that we know about it! I hope someone here has, or will find more about this fascinating breakthrough discovery spot.

Thank you, germamba, for your posts.

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Original post)

Fri Dec 16, 2016, 12:40 AM

32. Fishing for Fossils in the North Sea: The Lost World of Doggerland

Last edited Fri Dec 16, 2016, 07:16 PM - Edit history (1)

Saw this article in another message board:

Fishing for Fossils in the North Sea: The Lost World of Doggerland

February 4, 2014

https://thenaturalhistorian.com/2014/02/04/fishing-for-fossils-in-the-north-sea-the-lost-world-of-doggerland/

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Original post)

Tue Jul 7, 2020, 11:04 AM

35. September 2019

Today I was reviewing photos I took in Orkney in September 2019 and I found an image from this web.

I have to say that, then (in September 2019) my love to Orkney increased a lot more. I walked a lot during my stay there (and it rained a lot, too). I can't forget my last stay there. I love even more, if possible, Orkney Islands. I visited all the islands except the ones I could not visit because the rain. Another reason to return.

While I was there, I left a message in the sea (from me and my family) while I was going to Eday. I did this the 19.09.2019 at 7.15 h. Maybe, if Earth don't explode before, humans will find our message ______ years after I throw it.

If possible, I would like to go to live there. When I'm there I feel as I have lived there long before. I love Orkney.

On the image I found, you can imagine that Orcadians (and Britains) went walking from Orkney to South of Britan. Maybe, the builders of the Rings of Brodgar (previous to Stonehenge) showed to the Stonehenge how to built that structure.

I have to say that the image I found it's the same we have in this post as the first message. I found it out of this web.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fupload.democraticunderground.com%2F12292457&psig=AOvVaw3mwUoW2ZVYI2gmUtUY7PXX&ust=1594219806851000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCJDNptuxu-oCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAI

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Response to germamba (Reply #35)

Wed Jul 8, 2020, 07:17 AM

36. Have wondered repeatedly since your last post if you had gone there again!

September isn't so long ago, not quite a year.

The fact it rained a lot last time does give you a perfect reason to to see what you missed the last time.

So glad to hear you are still interested in this area, have thought of it so often, myself. It starts to seem more and more significant now, as more is being discovered about Stonehenge, and new (old) things near Stonehenge, and it gets clearer and clearer to see the patterns used there had already been created long before, up north!

As long as this website forum continues, I hope you will be sure to add to your information here, because you can be sure people who saw your earlier comments will remember very well, and would be excited to hear more. Hoping as science becomes more advanced, there is going to be wonderful discovery ahead. It would be incredibly meaningful.

Best wishes for good weather on your next Orkney trip.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #36)

Sun Jul 12, 2020, 09:56 AM

37. I'm seriously thinking...

Last edited Wed Jul 15, 2020, 01:25 PM - Edit history (7)

... about going myself (only me) to live to Orkney some months each year. Three, four or five months.

But I have a "problem". Where I wrote to expose my intentions (and I filled the form to try to choose for a place for living), the girl who attended my petition said I was searching for a way to be on holidays some months in Scotland without paying.
I said I couldn't go on winter because there are very few hours of sunlight and it will be impossible to go around Orkney at night. I can not enjoy Orkney. Seeing Northern Lights is not the only reason to go to your archipelago at night.

She didn't answered me. I think this means she won't answer me anymore.

I don't know what to do.

NOTE: I can't forget Orkney. I'm thinking every day of that archipelago.

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Original post)

Mon Jul 20, 2020, 02:17 AM

38. SCIENTISTS FIND NEW EVIDENCE OF LAND-SPLITTING TSUNAMI 8,150 YEARS AGO OFF ENGLAND'S COAST

The tsunami that devastated ancient Britain just 8,000 years ago: New evidence shows how massive tidal wave in 6,200 BC swept away Doggerland that linked UK to mainland Europe and inundated East Coast

  • Three successive waves tore across ancient land bridge between UK and Europe

  • Doggerland and is now submerged beneath the North Sea off the UK’s east coast

  • No evidence for the event was recovered from the southern North Sea until now

    By Jonathan Chadwick For Mailonline

    Published: 12:08 BST, 16 July 2020 | Updated: 14:42 BST, 16 July 2020

    Scientists have found new evidence of a massive tsunami that devastated ancient Britain in the year 6200 BC on the east coast of England.

    The giant tsunami event, known as the Storegga Slide, was caused when an area of seabed the size of Scotland, around 30,000 square miles, under the Norwegian Sea suddenly shifted.

    New geological evidence reveals three successive waves tore across an ancient land bridge connecting Britain with the rest of Europe, known as Doggerland, now submerged beneath the North Sea.

    The waves of biblical proportions would have caused devastating damage and had a catastrophic effect on human populations on the inhabited land.

    Evidence of the event had already been found in Scandinavia, the Faroe Isles, northeast Britain, and Greenland, but no direct evidence for the event had been recovered from the southern end of the North Sea until now.

    More:
    https://distincttoday.net/2020/07/16/scientists-find-new-evidence-of-land-splitting-tsunami-8150-years-ago-off-englands-coast/
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    Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #38)

    Tue Jul 21, 2020, 12:36 PM

    40. I think it's a very interesting information

    That date can be the begining of the incomunication between Orkney and Shetland to the Bristish Mainland.

    That means (in my opinion):
    1 - Stonehenge is older than we think now because, then, Orcadians went before we think (before becoming incomunicated) to show to the unhabitants of Stonehenge how to build it.
    2 - Then, the Ring of Brogar is older than we think (because it's older than Stonehenge)
    3 - Maybe it's necessary to recalculate periods of sites abandoned in Orkney (maybe Skara Brae, maybe the Nesss of Brodgar, maybe the Knap of Howar, ....).

    Then, archaeologycal sites in Orkney, are older than we think.

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    Response to germamba (Reply #40)

    Wed Jul 22, 2020, 06:13 PM

    41. The structures up there look amazingly old, eroded by nature after so very much time.

    The points you've added give us a lot to think about, while we wait for more discovery from this ancient site. It's too intriguing to be able to forget, it demands to be studied as long as it can possibly take until a much firmer picture is realized.

    All the photos of the area are overwhelming. So much has happened since the structures were created, the land itself has been altered severely, so much of it undersea now.

    Enjoy the time you get to study further. The subject is certainly worth your effort and concern.

    Thanks.

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    Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #41)

    Sat Jul 25, 2020, 06:37 AM

    43. It's been said

    Hi!!!

    In the video "Time Team S20 special - britains stone age tsunami " (in the message no.7 in this web sent from me the 08.04.2016), at the beggining of it, the man talks about a sunami that took place around 8.000 years ago. The time he's talking about it's the same you speak about in your message "38. SCIENTISTS FIND NEW EVIDENCE OF LAND-SPLITTING TSUNAMI 8,150 YEARS AGO OFF ENGLAND'S COAST".

    Then, I think, you had enough information to calculate (in order to become olders than we think) the ages of the neolithic remains in Orkney. And, consequently (according to my theory) the Ring of Brodgar is older than we think and Stonehenge, too (and other Neolithic remains, too). I refer to those monuments because they are the most famous ones and because I have read that, maybe, Ring of Brodgar builders showed to Stonehenge builders how to do the ring (I saw a documentary speaking about the relationship between Orkney and Stonehenge).

    Maybe, that sunami was the same that "obligate" to abandon Skara Brae. Then, Skare Brae can be older than we think.

    I beg your pardon if I think about situations impossible to be done. My imagination is very productive. And, I refers only to Orkney because it's the only place I know of that zone and I don't know about nothing else about it. I'm in love with that place. As I say for myself, "I'm an Orcadian born in Catalonia".

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    Response to germamba (Reply #40)

    Fri Jul 24, 2020, 10:24 AM

    42. As a curious information

    Last edited Fri Jul 24, 2020, 11:39 AM - Edit history (2)

    Hello!!!!

    When I visited Orkney last year, when I was going to Eday (I couldn't visit it because the fog), while I was going there, I left a message from me and my family to the future generations. As old sailors (whose ship had sunk) did I thrown a little bottle with a message, in my case to the bottom of the sea. I did something similar to this: Me and my family wrote a message, we put it inside a bottle, I sealed the bottle and, days after that, I threw it to the sea the 19.09.2019 at 7:45AM.

    If Earth doesn't explode before, in many years from that day, someone will find our message and about my loooooooove to Orkney.

    I have lots of memories about Orkney in my house and in my mind, and Orkney has a memory from me at the bottom of the sea.
    _________Orkney&A____________Orkney&Ar
    ______Orkney&Archaeo_______Orkney&Archaeolo
    ____Orkney&ArchaeologyO___Orkney&ArchaeologyO
    ___Orkney&ArchaeologyOrkney&Archaeo_______Orkn
    __Orkney&ArchaeologyOrkney&Archaeo_________Orkn
    _Orkney&ArchaeologyOrkney&Archaeology_______Orkn
    Orkney&ArchaeologyOrkney&ArchaeologyOrkn______O
    Orkney&ArchaeologyOrkney&ArchaeologyOrkney&A__Ork
    Orkney&ArchaeologyOrkney&ArchaeologyOrkney&Arch_O
    Orkney&ArchaeologyOrkney&ArchaeologyOrkney&Archae
    Orkney&ArchaeologyOrkney&ArchaeologyOrkney&Archae
    Orkney&ArchaeologyOrkney&ArchaeologyOrkney&Arch
    __Orkney&ArchaeologyOrkney&ArchaeologyOrkney&Ar
    ____Orkney&ArchaeologyOrkney&ArchaeologyOrkney
    ______Orkney&ArchaeologyOrkney&ArchaeologyO
    _________Orkney&ArchaeologyOrkney&Archae
    ____________Orkney&ArchaeologyOrkney&
    ______________Orkney&ArchaeologyOr
    _________________Orkney&Archae
    ___________________Orkney&Ar
    _____________________Orkney
    ______________________Orkn
    _______________________Or


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    Response to germamba (Reply #42)

    Sun Jul 26, 2020, 10:01 AM

    44. I hope human beings have learned far more about Orkney by the time someone finds your message!

    Getting a window into the world of the culture(s) in the Orkney who lived there, who lived and died there could change everything we have believed about the human race. There's so much to gain.

    Maybe the answer will arrive in the ways of testing which might be developed. Do you think it's possible any group might excavate the area? I have read that a few artifacts have been discovered fairly recently in the area between the UK and Europe on the ocean floor.

    You have definitely awakened a deep interest, informing people of your visits there and your ongoing personal study. Please do let us know if you are planning a new visit, etc. Clearly you're the one this forum will remember time after time, germamba!

    Have a great week ahead.

    (Can't imagine how long it would take to have constructed the image to include in your message in the bottle! Great idea.)

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    Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #44)

    Sun Jul 26, 2020, 05:34 PM

    45. Answers

    Last edited Mon Jul 27, 2020, 04:22 PM - Edit history (7)

    I don't know what to do to meet & find people to excavate this area, but I think instead excavation it's necessary to look for signals at the bottom of the seas and lakes. E.g. from Mainland Britain to Orkney and Shetland and in the lakes of Stenness and Harray in Orkney mainland when, before the tsunami, there lived lot of people, I think.

    I give this information IN MY OPINION, I don't have any formation about archaeology. I only love Orkney a lot, the same as archaeology. And I can't work at the excavation because I have some injuries due to a car accident I had years ago (I had been nearly died for two months; coma Glasgow 5. I'm reborn from 17.06.1990. I born for the first time in 1968). I love life and I can't do lots of things, but I'm alive . When I first visited Orkney (2012, by chance), I thought I have found the place where I lived in a previous life. Since then, I don't want to visit any other place in the world, and that is what I'm doing since 2012. Other subject I'm thinking about is that Orkney would be a place to die when I'm very old, being cremated and throw my ashes from a plane over Orkney archipelago.

    If I could (€) I would go every year to Orkney, or living there if possible. Maybe next year I will go again (I hope so).

    As a message in the bottle, we (me and my family) wrote a short message and add a photo of us.

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    Response to germamba (Reply #45)

    Tue Jul 28, 2020, 03:19 AM

    46. I think your suspicion there were many people there originally is accurate.

    What is left to see currently looks very much like the edges of something very large from long ago, something maybe enormous, with so much left below the soil and sea at this time.

    I hope so much that there will be breakthroughs coming from archeologists, anthropologists, other professions, an awakening, a decision to get down to business there! This would be the right time, since we are anticipating the sea to only get higher and higher with global warming.

    Of course new equipment is being developed constantly to help penetrate land from satellites or from drones with advanced cameras, which we might easily live long enough to see used in that area. They have already discovered entire cities in Central America which had been hidden for centuries under thick jungles, discovered them only in the last decade or so! Also, have heard they are discovering pyramids and cities which have been covered by centuries of blowing sand in northern Africa.

    You might be amazed more than you can imagine by what lies ahead in your lifetime, germamba.

    Very sorry to hear about your personal injury, but it's wonderful knowing you are able to travel and study the things that move you they way you have. The fact you have gone there repeatedly is exciting to anyone who reads your comments here. Your interest in this fascinating place opens a window to us, too. We feel activated, informed because of your own experiences!

    The idea of sending a photo along with your message is tremendous. That will add so much meaning to the person who finds it, make the event so much more exciting, so real! Cool.

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    Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #46)

    Tue Jul 28, 2020, 06:21 AM

    47. Thanks

    Last edited Tue Jul 28, 2020, 09:25 AM - Edit history (3)

    I only want that lots of years after now, if somebody finds our message, he/she knows that those isles had changed the way of leaving of somebody (me) and, consequently, of my family because Orkney is around me in my home. My family knows about my passion with Orkney. And I have a big photo of the Ring of Brodgar (took by me) on the room where I'm every day.

    Metaphorically, I have tatooed in my heart (and, of course, in my blood) a map of Orkney. The real definition for my case is that I'm an Orcadian born in Catalonia. I left my heart in Orkney the first time I had been there, but I don't know where (a reason to go very often).

    I want to ask for to Orkney's polititians to maintain clean and tidy the isles. They are very dirty. It's a shame.

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    Response to germamba (Reply #47)

    Tue Jul 28, 2020, 07:58 AM

    48. I only have a moment to post this link I just found.

    I've had trouble reading it because it's unfamiliar to me, but I haven't gone very far, and already the author has said that they believe some buildings they've found already have been there at least since 3100 B.C., which would make them over 5,000 years old. It also says that there are buildings much lower in the earth which have not been touched, yet, and remain to be seen later, so it looks as if there is a huge amount of digging and exploring ahead for the researchers. It would seem they have only scratched the surface up there!

    Amazing......

    What I have seen already is so interesting, although a lot of the words are totally foreign to me, and I will try to look them up when I have more time.

    Here's the link:

    https://www.orkneyology.com/skara-brae.html

    I have looked at some of the photos in google images, and they are wonderful! It's easy to see why you are attracted to such a fascinating part of the world, whose real meaning still lies ahead to be discovered again!

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    Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #48)

    Tue Jul 28, 2020, 04:51 PM

    49. New site

    Last edited Tue Jul 28, 2020, 06:09 PM - Edit history (3)

    Hi!!!

    I tried to send a private message giving you information of another site and the web said me that I don't have enough privileges to do it.

    Can you give me, if you want your mail in a mail to me, please? I think I will give you interesting information about a site in Spain not as old as Orkney, but 2000 years. It's a curious information, a curious (and little) site.

    --------

    Is not needed to send me your mail. I give the information now:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Las_M%C3%A9dulas

    --------

    How it worked:

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Frevistadehistoria.es%2Flas-medulas-el-oro-de-hispania%2F&psig=AOvVaw1ImqWBSRTTGrI1hZAkLEfl&ust=1596059677457000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCKjj09738OoCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAL

    --------

    More clearly:

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    Response to germamba (Reply #49)

    Sun Aug 2, 2020, 10:39 PM

    51. These links are amazing. It's taking a long time to examine them, have never heard this information.

    Have been doing other reading, etc., and was so surprised to see all of this material which is completely new to people who haven't read as well as you have.

    Am curious about whether you have been up there, yourself, or not.

    The scenery is so beautiful, so unusual.

    Am also looking at the mines information in the following post. Have never heard of that, and it is also amazing.

    All of it so wildly ancient, too! So much has happened in this region, so many people have lived there, it seems overwhelming!

    It helped to see a map of the area in the links in the Wikipedia page, too. Fascinating.

    I want to look through the information, some more, but had to thank you, first, for introducing this remarkable subject in Catalonia before going back to read more.

    So interesting to know that once the mines had been emptied, the spaces continued to be used for other purposes, too!

    I'll be looking at the photos, more information, and thank you, so much, for bringing it all here!

    Until later!

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    Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #51)

    Mon Aug 3, 2020, 02:17 PM

    52. About these sites:

    I knew about mines in Las Médulas due to a man (from Argentina) in the same village I live who spoke me about them. I said about these mines to my wife (she's the only one person who drive in my family; I'm terrified with cars since I had the acccident). When we could do it, we went there to spent few days in León (a province of Spain where the mines are) and we went to the mines. I'm fascinated about that site. As I always do with this kind of sites, I tried to imagine me living there thousands of years ago. I imagined that (living there) without being an slave. It had too much violence for me to imagine me as an slave. I saw pictures about how slaves worked in those mines, and is terrifying how they worked.

    I recommend you look for photos on internet to see how beatiful and small is that site.

    The site near Barcelona (Gavà mines) were a point of extraction of variscite around five thousands of years ago. Now, it's in the center of a small city, and I imagine that lots of modern buildings have been built where the mines were before being found. Today it's an small site to visit.

    And I went alone with my wife because I don't know anybody of my age, and near my home, who likes the same I like it, and I don't want to search for he/she. Since the accident (because those who I thought were my friends left me alone) I prefer doing things alone, I don't like to depend of anyone else except my (lovely) wife.

    Once, in my visit to Orkney in 2016 I found a girl from the same village where I live working as an archaeologyst in the Ness of Brodgar, but then I had 48 years old and she had 21. We hadn't the same interests out of the excavation and she had her friends on the excavation and she were living with them all time (they were students from different countries). I didn't wanted to interfer in their friendship. And one day I left the Ness and Orkney few days after meeting her. She was a strange person, and me too. But I had had a terrible accident, and she didn't.

    It's hard to live with the consequences of an accident.

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    Response to germamba (Reply #52)

    Mon Aug 3, 2020, 06:32 PM

    53. Who I am

    https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=907752196358122&set=a.261693514297330&__cft__[0]=AZUV_Nqf7-hveOshTgKTzV1hhJOEMQzdvikBBkivMo9TuNq1hWzOTe7noN63hlUbwFu8ZZKNEK0LiVWDQRiqRpxKbx3IWZOjoH95WVcDpRUzVYt7jU6B-u5DabURQKbGQ1A&__tn__=EH-R

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    Response to germamba (Reply #52)

    Tue Aug 4, 2020, 02:58 AM

    55. The scenary around Las Mdulas is amazing, unique rock formations, beautiful forests, wonderful!



    Las Médulas



    Interesting website, has a 360º panorama photograph:

    https://www.turismocastillayleon.com/en/countryside-nature/natural-areas/las-medulas

    I read that Las Médulas was the largest source of gold in the entire Roman Empire. The area allows people to follow so many paths through the caves, going everywhere. Clearly you could spend a huge amount of time there, exploring, absorbing what it all could mean.

    I understand the lives of slaves in the mines were very short. Unbearably sad, inhuman, so evil to do that to any living being.

    There's so much to study available in the articles with the photographs.



    Gavà Mines

    Looking through the images connected to Gavà Mines, it seems even the artist Gaudi is involved, somehow, with a religious area he created, connected to some crypts, or something. That was unexpected!

    There's so much more to read and see from the google images:

    https://tinyurl.com/y64t2m3e

    Someone could get lost in the reading and studying there, too!

    So glad you considered mentioning these historic, ancient, dynamic places in the world. So much happened there over thousands of years, so much of it painful. It would be important to find out a lot more.

    I live in the center of the United States, in Kansas City. Not so close to Barcelona, which would be an amazing place to live. I was not aware of the incredible far more ancient past connected to that part of Spain, and I really want to learn more about it when I can find the time.

    You do have deeply significant historic sites right where you are, don't blame you at all for making trips to those places with your wife as often as possible. So much to think about that makes them far more valuable than people normally experience on trips.

    It is odd that all the way to Orkney, you discovered another place from your own home! You must have been so surprised! It would be amazing that not only was she a compatriot, she had the very same deep interests, as well.

    It sounds as if you are able to travel substantially, even after your serious, tragic accident and the damage it did to your life. It's remarkable you are able to move beyond that trauma so well.

    There's a lot more I want to see and learn about the material you've brought to our attention. You are located in a great place on the planet, surrounded by complex histories and prehistories.

    Your Facebook link doesn't work, somehow, for me. I'll see what I can figure out. Thank you.

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    Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #55)

    Tue Aug 4, 2020, 11:10 AM

    56. I clicked over the link of facebook and it works

    Last edited Tue Aug 4, 2020, 12:43 PM - Edit history (6)

    I have to do so in order you to see my picture. I can't send it through this web.

    I know I live in a very beautiful place (Catalonia and Spain), but I found another more interesting. I love archaeology, I love imagine old ways of living (and trying to undestand it).

    I'm very very happy to be alive, but is not easy to find people who lived the same as me and are in good conditions. In my opinion I'm one of the luckiest guys in the world. If I have good luck and I add archaeology to that luck, I'm more happy, if possible.

    If you go to my facebook's page (https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100013700498199), you will see the picture I tried to send you (the title of this picture start with a sentence "I'm an ......". That message its true. I'm in love with that archipelago.

    If you see the graphic representation of my life in that page of facebook, you will undestand because I'm one of the luckiest men in the world. I think now I have done things I couldn't imagine 30 years ago (to be married, to be the parent of a girl and a boy, being "normal",...). I would like to go to live to Orkney and, someday, die there. And if possible (I know it is not possible), to be buried in the middle of the Ring of Brodgar. It's my impossible dream.

    A sentence about my love to Orkney: "I left my heart there when I visited Orkney the fist time. I don't know where it is. I need to go very often in order to find it".
    I don't know if you have any problem by giving me your mail. I say that because, maybe, we are talking about things out of this group. If you prefer, you can write me to germamba@gmail.com (my name is Germà, and I live near Barcelona). If you prefer writing me privately, when you have done, I will erase my mail of this page.

    NOTE: I don't know why, I thought you were from United Kingdom.

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    Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #55)

    Tue Aug 4, 2020, 12:16 PM

    57. Information

    Hello again!!!

    Mountains in Las Médulas, are not rock formations. They are how slaves from Roman empire left after working on them. The exploded the mountains with water.

    I don't know from where are your image, but is not corresponding to Las Médulas (now is a very dry land and around it are only trees in some places).

    And mines from Gavà are here:

    I have put a link here that isn't working. If you want, I can send you photos, or upload it in a gmail account I will create for showing it. I will create in few minutes.

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    Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #51)

    Mon Aug 3, 2020, 07:30 PM

    54. I'm planning to go again to Las Mdulas (I don't know when)

    Last edited Tue Aug 4, 2020, 10:29 AM - Edit history (1)

    Do you want to come with me and my wife?

    If you want:

    a) Coming to Barcelona and go by car with us (around 935 km., more or less 9 hours with 1 stop to eat and 1 for having a rest, 20 minutes).

    -----------------

    If you prefer going to Las Médulas:

    b) Going to León (by plane. I don't know if it is possible going to León from where you live). Or going to Madrid, or other airports nearby and then to Las Médulas.

    -----------------

    Question

    c) Where are you from?

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    Response to germamba (Reply #54)

    Wed Aug 5, 2020, 07:31 AM

    60. That would make an unforgettable adventure, in every way! Sorry I live incredibly far from the area!

    It's easy to see why you've made the trip there with your family, and will probably go again, by all means.

    It really brings tears to the eyes just realizing the huge price paid by living people forced to spend their lives there, suffering such hopeless hardship, probably knowing they would never leave the place alive.

    Reminds me of the mountain in Bolivia where a silver mine, Cerro Rico, was used to provide silver for the Spanish rulers, starting in the 1500's, using the slave labor of native Bolivian people. It has been estimated that since the 1500's, over 8,000,000 people, including children, have perished, trying to dig silver from the mine. It has been named "the mountain that eats men."

    Both places are very serious, historic mines, which should inform the human race of the deadly cost of human greed, if only the human race would learn it.

    Learning how water was used in this location was unforgettable, conducted on such a large scale it seems impossible!

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    Response to germamba (Reply #49)

    Wed Aug 5, 2020, 07:15 AM

    59. I got the computer translation for this article, and it is astonishing!

    The explanation for how the Romans altered the mountain presents a picture they were FAR more powerful than I could have ever imagined, with technology. The plan is amazing, but their investment of the lives of so many people is unforgivable. Undoubtedly this operation took more lives than the casual estimate, but the decision to do it was made by people who would hever suffer any of the hardship, and would benefit from outrageous profits from the gold trade.

    This is shocking, to say the least. The illustrations on the page and your animated link are tremendous, they do a wonderful job explaining.

    ~ ~ ~

    Las Médulas, the gold of Hispania
    The Marrows 01/22/2015

    Give History with the new Gift Vouchers! Ideal for Birthdays, Saints, Father's Day, Mother's Day, Christmas and Kings. More information here

    Reading time: 3 minutes



    Las Médulas is the landscape environment resulting from the ancient Roman gold mining. This environment is located near the town of the same name , in the El Bierzo region , province of León, and is considered the largest open pit gold mine in the entire Roman Empire .

    Las Médulas, arrival of the Romans

    The Romans arrived at Las Médulas from the hand of Octavio Augusto between 26 and 19 BC. and although the pre-Roman Indians had already exploited the site, it was the Romans who made the area the largest open pit gold mine in the Empire.

    The very Pliny the Elder was administrator youth of mines, and thanks to him we know that is extracted to the year 20,000 pounds of gold, which, considering the 250 years of exploitation, would give five million pounds of gold , that is, 1,635,000 kg. The workforce was also huge. Pliny speaks of 60,000 manumitized workers, in such an unfortunate working condition that Pliny himself says:

    «It is less reckless to search for pearls and purple at the bottom of the sea than to extract gold from these lands»


    Montium Ruin, the origin of the landscape of Las Médulas
    Thanks to the fact that the environment provided everything necessary, the Romans channeled the water from the streams, holding it at the top of the farm.



    The Marrows

    Then they pierced the mountain with steep galleries, and released the water through them. The force of the water destroyed the mountain and dragged the gold lands to the sinks.




    Las Médulas, Ruin Montium

    One of the ingenious Roman methods of collecting water, started from the northeast side of Mount Teleno, no less than from an altitude of 2000 meters.


    There the Romans accumulated the snow that later, already turned into water, reached the Cabo river, which in turn fed the seven channels that, bordering the mountain, reached the exploitation ponds.



    Las Médulas, extraction scheme

    These channels, whose length is estimated at about 300 kilometers, have a slope of between 0.6 and 1%. The width is 1.28 meters, except in the curves, 1.60 meters, and its depth is 90 centimeters. The construction of these channels, which in some sections run under the rock in the form of a tunnel, was, by far, the most difficult and expensive work of the operation, and it can be said that the hydraulic system of Las Médulas is the most spectacular of those known, for the amount of water used and the length and large number of branches of its channels.



    The Marrows

    The Roman exploitation works for the extraction of gold ore, supposed a tremendous alteration of the environment of the area, and left a landscape of reddish sands, which was covered with green vegetation of chestnut and oak trees over time, until the point that today has the consideration of "Cultural Landscape", being declared "Well of Cultural Interest" in 1996 for its archaeological interest and "Natural Monument" in 2002, as well as a World Heritage Site (UNESCO 1997).

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    Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #59)

    Wed Aug 5, 2020, 11:14 AM

    61. HOLE

    This is the biggest hole done by the water (spectacular)

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    Response to germamba (Reply #61)

    Wed Aug 5, 2020, 01:33 PM

    62. Enormous! Can't even imagine how much water would have been needed to do that.

    The people involved in this work were dealing with such large quantities of water, I can't imagine how they could have done it. It would be interesting if someone could make a very small scale video explaining how someone believes it happened.

    All that work for gold! Doesn't seem possible a mere metal substance could be worth it!

    Can hardly stop staring at that photo. Fascinating.

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    Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #62)

    Wed Aug 5, 2020, 04:27 PM

    63. I'm trying to send you a document about how they got water but....

    .... I don't know which Judi Lynn are you. I've found lot of people with your name in facebook.

    You can add me as your friend. You have to look for "Germà Martín Bacarisas" in facebook. I'm the only one with that name.

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    Response to germamba (Reply #63)

    Wed Aug 5, 2020, 07:53 PM

    65. Just saw your comment, and sent the request. Great idea! Thanks.

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    Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #65)


    Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #62)

    Wed Aug 5, 2020, 05:01 PM

    64. Video from YouTube with translation to English (maybe it can answer your questions about how....

    ...they got water to explode the mountains

    (I'm watching it with subtitles in English in YOUTUBE. Maybe you have to set it for viewing English subtitles)

    ------------

    Las Médulas are a World Heritage Site
    This environment was declared "Asset of Cultural Interest" in 1996 due to its archaeological interest. In 1997 Unesco declared it a World Heritage Site, in 2002 it was awarded the title of "Natural Monument" and in 2010 "Cultural Space".

    NOTE: https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/803/

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    Response to germamba (Reply #64)


    Response to germamba (Reply #67)


    Response to germamba (Reply #67)

    Fri Aug 7, 2020, 12:21 AM

    69. I started at the beginning, and have been taking small parts to the translator. Interesting!

    It takes some time, but completely interesting. Have never seen information, the history is excellent!

    I'll keep working on it, but I can only do so much each day, as time permits.

    I really appreciate getting a chance to read the history of the civilization surrounding this area. The ones who were there before the Romans sound very intelligent, and decent.

    It would be fascinating to know exactly how their original buildings and fortresses looked! They were really organized, and worked beautifully together, well skilled, and peaceful.

    Thanks. Looking forward to reading the rest of it, a little at a time.

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    Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #69)

    Fri Aug 7, 2020, 10:45 AM

    70. Question about North America

    Do you have any archaeologycal site (older than 200 years)? I know nothing about that. The oldest unhabitants I know from North America are "Indians" I saw in the fims fighting against American soldiers (Apache, Sioux, Navajos,....). I don't know how old are this people, from were they moved in America.

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    Response to germamba (Reply #70)

    Mon Aug 10, 2020, 11:19 AM

    71. I reply myself in order to give information to other interested people

    Last edited Mon Aug 10, 2020, 08:34 PM - Edit history (1)

    First unhabilitants of America were CLOVIS.

    The article ("I translated" using Google Translator), translated from Spanish language is this :

    Solved the mystery of the origin of the first Native Americans

    Researchers from the University of Copenhagen found next to the skeleton of a boy between 12,600 and 13,000 years old, found in a cemetery in Montana (USA), a hundred tools covered with red ocher, typical of the Clovis culture, one of the Oldest Native American civilizations. The DNA sequencing of this skeleton has given the key to finally locate the origins of this culture of hunters. The research has been published in the journal Nature.

    The origin of this civilization and its genetic inheritance have always been a matter of debate. After sequencing the genome of this skeleton, which they named Anzick-1 (since it corresponded to a child between one and a year and a half), researchers have confirmed that the individual belonged to an ancestral population closely linked to many natives. contemporaries. This conclusion therefore refutes the so-called "Solutrean hypothesis" that suggested that the ancestors of the Clovis migrated from southwestern Europe more than 15,000 years ago.

    The study of the child's DNA was reconstructed as a result of the use of bone chips collected from the skull, which has been a huge challenge at the scientific level, since there was only about 1% human DNA in the remains; the other large percentage was made up of bacteria that invaded the skeleton after death.

    Thanks to this new discovery, it is clear that the ancestry of the first Americans goes back to Asia, specifically to the area of ​​Siberia, who emigrated to Central and South America taking advantage of the melting of the glaciers 17,000 years ago. Thus, the descendants of these settlers were what developed the Clovis culture, from which most Native Americans come.

    Original article is in:
    https://www.muyinteresante.es/ciencia/articulo/resuelto-el-misterio-del-origen-de-los-primeros-nativos-americanos-921392294080


    ---------
    Information of Clovis Culture in Wikipedia:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clovis_culture

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    Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #69)


    Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #48)

    Wed Jul 29, 2020, 06:38 PM

    50. Another interesting site (this time from Neolithic)..

    Last edited Thu Jul 30, 2020, 10:54 AM - Edit history (2)

    Neolithic Gavà mines (very near from Barcelona):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gav%C3%A0_Mines

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    Response to Ichingcarpenter (Original post)



    Response to Ichingcarpenter (Original post)

    Tue Aug 11, 2020, 04:48 PM

    73. Another article

    In Spanish. As I think (in the map of the center), it was possible to go from London to Orkney and Shetland by foot. That confirms the assumptions that Orcadians shared knowledge with Stonehenge's builders. And that Stonehenge and the Ring of Brodgar are olders than we think (it's my opinion):

    https://magnet.xataka.com/en-diez-minutos/doggerland-la-europa-una-vez-habitada-y-hoy-sumergida-en-las-aguas-del-mar-del-norte

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    Response to germamba (Reply #73)

    Tue Aug 11, 2020, 04:54 PM

    74. Doggerland- Island child of the Danes and Dutch

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    Response to Ichingcarpenter (Original post)

    Sun Aug 30, 2020, 08:56 PM

    76. So little is understood about the mesolithic

    Most likely, most of the history has been under water for thousands of years. One estimate I read said that by the time the glaciers started to recede, Doggerland was losing about a kilometer of shore a year to the sea long before the tsunami. Some people did read the signs and headed for high ground, the excavation at Star Carr in Yorkshire has given us some insights as how contemporaneous people in Doggerland might have lived.

    Either they were alarmed by the rising water or maybe they just wanted to live above the mosquito line, who knows?

    What seems pretty clear is that people were settled long term, usually by rivers and lakes, and that the environment provided just about everything they needed. There is evidence of trade in the best stone for tools as well as ornamental objects.

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    Response to Warpy (Reply #76)

    Tue Sep 1, 2020, 11:33 AM

    77. About information of Doggerland

    Hi!!!!

    Can you recommend me a book about Doggerland, please?

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    Response to germamba (Reply #77)

    Tue Sep 1, 2020, 02:53 PM

    78. This stuff is new enough that it's one of the few times

    you're better off with the web, starting with Wikipedia, tracking down the articles at the end of the entry, and searching for the things that interest you.

    Eventually, books will be published but for now, the best information is in articles, especially those on the artifacts and fossils that fishermen have dredged up.

    Much of the northern part of the area was lost in the megatsunami around 8100 years ago, but I've found a few articles about diving expeditions in some of the higher elevations and in the south that have located things like settlements and campfire remnants.

    We've only recently developed the technologies like side scan sonar,. sea bed profiling, robotic deep diving, and more reliable dating through computer aided dendrochronology to give the area a proper study, which is why articles are a better bet than books.

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