The Catholic hierarchy isn't as dumb as they appear.

[Curmudgeoness]

My boss is a devout Catholic, even having a portrait of the Virgin Mary behind his desk that he kisses every day before he leaves and a signed picture of the Pope hanging in his office. He also delivers flowers to the church daily to decorate the altar and is very close friends of the priests. Our CPA is a good friend of his who was raised Catholic but who is now trying to work out his beliefs and is reading the Bible in earnest. He is leaning toward an Evangelical type of belief, but is not yet going to a church.

So my boss tells me to get the CPA to STOP READING THE BIBLE. I guess that it is a sin, or at least frowned upon in the Catholic church. Smart move. You probably ask why my boss would tell me to do this. Well, it is because he is an idiot, and also because he knows that I am also close to the CPA. Add to that the reason that I am now an atheist----because I read the Bible.

Well, the CPA is not paying attention, so I am helping him find stories to read. So far, he is researching the stories on Christian websites that "explain" what the reasons are for whatever is in the story. I'll keep doing this, just for fun.

[Warpy]

1. Instead of finding him stories, tell him to start at the beginning and read through to the end.

That's what was so discouraged by Rome for so many years. People were free to write births and deaths in the front fly of one of those huge old family bibles (that would have been worth a fortune if my parents had discovered parcel post and had it mailed home) and read the Xmas story and maybe a couple of others, but it was frowned upon to treat it like a novel and read everything in it, begats and all.

My mother finally did it in her 70s and she was furious about what was really in there. She never set foot in a church again.

[Curmudgeoness]

2. Well, he no longer believes that it is a problem

to read the Bible. I do have him doing a lot of Genesis, but so far, he doesn't see anything to upset him.....he is rationalizing things like the Shechem and Diana story. But sooner or later, he will question.....he is a conservative, but he isn't stupid. I say that even though it doesn't seem to make sense, but he has gone from rabid wingnut to hating Rush and not liking the Republicans either. It only took me 12 years to get him this far. We will continue to talk often, about all of it.

[TxDemChem]

4. Joshua did it for me. It's hard to justify infanticide in the bible.

One of my coworkers tried to debate me on the bible, and she ended up trying to justify it. But once I mentioned that they were to keep the virgin girls to themselves, she had no response. I closed the conversation by saying no benevolent god would approve of that, but man would. I think it's the verses that they have to somehow justify that do people in. That broke the camel's back for me.

[AtheistCrusader]

6. Wow, you didn't get the stock counter-argument.

I've been told repeatedly by different sources, that this was benevolent treatment for them, because in other period-related societies, they would have ALL been killed, so keeping the virgins for themselves was like... a step up on the humanity scale.

You can imagine my snort of disgust in response.

[Act_of_Reparation]

7. Or the stock DU counter-argument

"IT'S JUST A METAPHOR"

[AtheistCrusader]

8. Yeah, I blocked that clown today.

No more of that shit. I'm done.

I'll engage in debate with honest potential. Not on crap. Don't waste my time.

'Metaphor'. Yup. Metaphor for WHAT? Oh well, that's up for interpretation and subjective to the viewer.. Yeah, ok. Tell me another one.

[Act_of_Reparation]

11. It's pretty amazing...

...the Allegory of the Cave predates the Gospels by about half a millennium, yet somehow we manage to understand precisely what the fuck Plato was driving at, while the musings of the supposed Son of God remain a fucking mystery.

Yup. Smells like bullshit to me.

[TxDemChem]

12. Lol OMG! That's a terrible response.

I'm glad no one has said that to me. I'd have laughed in their faces or given them a WTF look. Whew, glad I heard it here first.

[AtheistCrusader]

14. It is, in fact, the only response I usually get for this issue.

[TxDemChem]

17. Wow. I can't even wrap my head around that.

Cognitive dissonance can be a bitch.

[AtheistCrusader]

23. It definetly permanently blew out a couple of my circuit breakers.

[TxDemChem]

3. Lol you slay me. I'd do the same thing.

Your boss is an ass-hat. But I find it really disturbing that he would dissuade someone from reading the book to which his faith is founded on. Doesn't he know that makes him and his faith look really bad?

By the way, love reading your posts and threads. You always crack me up or kick some knowledge.

[Curmudgeoness]

9. You just don't understand Catholics, I guess.

Seriously, they are not supposed to read the Bible. That is what the scholarly priests are for, and then they interpret it for the faithful. They are supposed to leave the study of the Bible to the professionals. The argument is that (you'll love this one) if one tries to read the Bible without guidance, they will get confused. No shit.

And thanks.

[TxDemChem]

13. Oh no! That's terrible. Get this, a catholic lady I work with

Is in a bible study group. She, her husband and 4 other couples meet every other Saturday. I wonder what they talk about now that I've heard this. Scary thought...studying the bible without actually studying the bible?

[Curmudgeoness]

16. Wow, that lady must be in a very progressive church.

That is a new one on me. The only Catholics who I know will read the Bible are ex-Catholics.

I know that I am just nosy, but I think that I would try to find out what they do read and talk about.....but that is because I get a kick out of things like that.

[TxDemChem]

18. It's definitely not progressive, but I'm curious too.

I talked to her this afternoon about her husband. He's had a stroke, is on his third fight with breast cancer, got a partial hip replacement, all in the last 7 years. Most problems have been in the last 3 years. He's confined to a wheelchair and is obviously depressed. She told me today that at his doctor's appointment this morning, they found 3 more tumors. One is on his frontal love. He'll have surgery next week. This is the woman I've mentioned on other threads who has made comments about how bad the ACA is and how EVERYONE should be praying just a few weeks ago, as a snide remark towards my atheism. Anyway, yesterday was the first day in her life that she didn't want to go to church. I think she may be having a crisis if faith, but I won't push her. I'll try to see if any other coworkers know what their bible study group covered. It's an interesting case.

[Curmudgeoness]

19. That is a terribly sad story.

And how sad that she thinks that prayer will help. Or that the ACA is bad.

But as much as I think that religion is bunk, I hope that she does not leave her church right now. It is a community that can support her mental health, which she will need, and I would hate for her to lose that at this time. Maybe in coming years.

[TxDemChem]

31. That's exactly how I've been feeling about it.

It seemed that she almost expected me to say she shouldn't go, but I told her that we all have our off days and sometimes we've just got push on and go. Perhaps she will hear an uplifting service. She seemed surprised by my reaction, but I think she appreciated it. She definitely needs all the support she can get right now.

[LiberalAndProud]

15. I think there are many Bible scholars who think that nonscholars

shouldn't try to interpret the scriptures because they can't understand the historical and cultural context of the thing. Truthfully, that would be fine with me if spurious religious teaching weren't so invasive in every aspect of our society.

(Musing) How many American Bible scholars are not straight white males?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

28. I took religion courses in college.

One of them was about the Old Testament as history, and the JEDP theory as to the different sources --who wrote what when. They were just starting to do computerized textual analysis then--40 years ago.

The bible is a product of political power, edited by the orders of Emperor Constantine, and it's a complete mess as far as sources and editing stuff in and taking stuff out about rights for women and reincarnation. The various councils which determined what was canonical and what wasn't.

Also, there are no contemporaneous accounts of Jesus as a person who lived when he allegedly lived, unlike Marcus Aurelius, Plato, Julius Caesar, or many other people who lived centuries ago.

[LiberalAndProud]

29. A complete mess.

I have to agree, though I'm no scholar. My brother *is* a scholar who will argue that laity can't be expected to understand the subtleties of the teachings (which are liberal teachings, by the way.) From the viewpoint of this nonscholar with fundamental objections to those lessons, that approach can be maddening.

As for Jesus as a historical figure, I'm only beginning to read the arguments, because Josephus and one other source (I'll have to ask again) are sufficient corroboration in his view. On that question, I still consider myself an agnostic.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

32. The passing reference in Josephus is not very convincing.

I went to a nominally Presbyterian college where everybody had to take 6 hours of religion.

The intro course was "Nature & Function of Religion" which was about sociology and psychology of religion. The very basic questions. Why do we have religions? What psychological purpose do they serve? We had to read Freud, Feuerbach, Jung, Nietzsche, Eliade, Rudolf Otto, Paul Tillich, Notes from the Underground by Dostoyevsky, James Frazier, etc.

The course blew my mind. I did not understand what the prof was talking about for the first six weeks, and that was a new sensation. After that course, you could take any course you wanted. The prof was an amazing linguist and knew Greek, Latin, Hebrew, Amharic, Aramaic and other ancient languages. I took OT from him too.

I showed mom my final exam in OT, about the JEDP sources, the 12 tribes and such, and she said, "Your average half-assed preacher couldn't pass this." She was referring to bible-thumpers and literalists, not Presbyterians. Half-assed preachers don't have doctorates from Princeton Theological Seminary like my professor did.

My sister took Asian Religions for her second course. The college now has a Department of Asian Religions within the Religion department. No beating doctrines into anyone's head unless you're a seminary student. Unlike the school about a mile down Hildebrand Avenue, Incarnate Word College, a Catholic school.

[AtheistCrusader]

24. Well, now I know where Joseph Smith got that from.

[uriel1972]

5. "Do what the book says"...

"What does the book say?"
"Never you mind I'll tell you what the book says."
"Wait… what?"

[Curmudgeoness]

10. You must be a fallen Catholic????

Few people really get it.

[uriel1972]

20. Nah, just a student of human nature…nt

[LostOne4Ever]

21. Honestly I can not see how anyone can read just the Torah

Last edited Tue Mar 25, 2014, 05:23 AM - Edit history (1)

And still believe.

• Cause people to suffer and die for eating a fruit? No Problem.


• Letting a person who killed their own brother go free? No problem.


• Flood kills who knows how many innocent children and animal? No Problem.


• God threatens to punish a Pharoh for thinking Sarah wasn't married to Abraham...because they FUCKING LIED TO HIM? No Problem.


• Abandoning your illegimate son and his mother because your wife is a jealous hypocrite who encouraged you to have a kid with her in the first place? No problem.


• Burning down Sodom And Gomorrah killing more innocent children? No Problem


• Stealing the birthright of your brother though lies and deception? NO PROBLEM.


• Killing the first born children of the innocent people of Egypt because GOD MADE THE PHAROH act like an ass? No problem.


• Killing 3,000 of your own people for your brother making them a golden idol, though the brother is without blame? No Problem


• Sending a man and his entire (INNOCENT) family to hell for him not thinking god would make him invincible in a war against giants? No Problem.


• As mentioned above, killing everyone who is not a virgin girl and taking those girls as sex slaves? No problem!


• Killing your most loyal and ardent follower for hitting a stone twice? No Problem.

[Curmudgeoness]

22. LOL, it does sound hilarious when put that way.

A question---who is the man and his family who were sent to hell regarding a war against giants?

The rest of those stories, I already know. But you stumped me there.

[LostOne4Ever]

25. I was thinking of Korah

I went looking for the verse, and I got a bit mixed up there. They were sent to hell for saying that everyone was equal.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers+16&version=RSVCE

31 And as he finished speaking all these words, the ground under them split asunder; 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the men that belonged to Korah and all their goods. 33 So they and all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly. 34 And all Israel that were round about them fled at their cry; for they said, “Lest the earth swallow us up!” 35 And fire came forth from the Lord, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men offering the incense.

I confused them with the spies moses sent to spy and came back with a bad report:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%2014&version=RSVCE

36 And the men whom Moses sent to spy out the land, and who returned and made all the congregation to murmur against him by bringing up an evil report against the land, 37 the men who brought up an evil report of the land, died by plague before the Lord. 38 But Joshua the son of Nun and Caleb the son of Jephun?neh remained alive, of those men who went to spy out the land.

Sorry so many people are brutally killed for no good reason in numbers its easy to get them mixed up

The bible is such a great source of morality isn't it?

[Curmudgeoness]

26. Well, I learned something new.

I didn't know either of those stories. And yes, the numbers "brutally" killed by god were incredible. You know that we would have been among them if he wasn't dead.

[uriel1972]

30. But the basic message of the Bible...

Is to treat each other as you would like to be treated… Yeah, right. The basic message of the Bible is to Fear and Obey God. That's it.
I heard the do unto others bit in a thread about a evangelist using Timothy to tell women to be silent in church.

I managed to refrain from posting. I wonder if that was the right thing to do.

[Curmudgeoness]

33. It probably was the right thing to do

simply because the believers don't listen to anything that makes sense when it comes to religion.....so there is just no point.

I, personally, do not disagree with some of the teachings in the Bible. I just wish that more people would live by the simple truths that they profess to believe (like treat others as you would like to be treated...duh). But those simple truths do not require a god or religion to make them truths.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

27. William Tyndale was strangled and barbecued for translating the Bible into English.

If you had a copy of Wycliffe's translation of the bible, that was an automatic death sentence. And this pissed off both the Catholics and the Protestants at the time.

Tyndale was murdered by the authorities near Brussels.

[Curmudgeoness]

34. Tell me more.

I know, I could google it, but I am lazy. Who murdered Tyndale? Church authorities? Civil authorities? What was the charge if it was a crime he was punished for?

I guess that the Protestants have come a long way since then, because they are big on "reading the Bible" now.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

35. Read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tyndale

He was apparently seized by civil authorities. The Catholics and Protestants both hated him, as he was against Henry VIII's divorce. He was executed for heresy near Brussels.


His translations were used heavily later in the King James Bible.

[Curmudgeoness]

36. So it was heresy. Figures.

That is what I expected. But I also suspect that his protests against Henry VIII may have been the real reason for his undoing.

The bio of him is really interesting. But it certainly makes one shake their head.

Like this:

The M.A. allowed him to start studying theology, but the official course did not include the systematic study of Scripture. As Tyndale later complained:

"They have ordained that no man shall look on the Scripture, until he be noselled in heathen learning eight or nine years and armed with false principles, with which he is clean shut out of the understanding of the Scripture."

Heathen learning.

[onager]

37. Run to your boss's PC...

While he's away from it.

Google "Cadaver Synod" and leave the results up for him to contemplate.

That's one of the most bizarre events in the history of the Catholic hierarchy...which covers a lot, as we all know.

Short version - Pope Stephen VII dug up the corpse of his predecessor, Pope Formosus. He had the corpse dressed in Papal robes, propped up in a chair, and subjected to a full canon trial. Formosus was - surprise! - found guilty. His body was subjected to various indignities, to include having the 3 fingers used to give blessings removed from his hand.

Pope Formosus must have pissed off a lot of people. One story says a later Pope, Sergius, had him dug up AGAIN and put on trial very posthumously. After which the skeleton was decapitated. But that story may not be true, according to some experts.

Dead religious leaders seem to piss off a lot of people, after they've had a few years to think about it or something. e.g., several years after Oliver Cromwell died, his body was dug out of its grave in Westminster Abbey. His corpse was wrapped in chains and hung from the Tyburn gallows, where common criminals were usually executed. Except for his head, which was chopped off, impaled on a spike, and put on public display for many years.

[Curmudgeoness]

38. Ewwwwww!!!!

I am glad that I don't live in a time when displaying dead bodies for years was fashionable. Or that a body had to be dug up to put them on trial. These are some really bizarre happenings.

What is really odd though is that a pope would have a predecessor pope charged with any crime....since popes are all supposed to be god's spokesman on earth, and therefore infallible. This would put all popes, even the current one, in a strange situation.

[uriel1972]

39. As I understand it...

Papal infallibility is a recent invention, although it was made retroactive. It only covers matters of doctrine though, so the Borgia and Medici Popes, although quite decadent in life, get a pass for their sins.