I’m an atheist psychiatrist. Should I see patients who believe in God?

[Goblinmonger]

Original Article

So here is where I find so much fault with those that bristle at the use of the term delusion to describe religion.

From the article linked above:

My religious friend once asked me point-blank, “if you don’t believe in God, how can you see someone who does as anything but delusional? As a mental health professional, how do you counsel such a person?”

It’s a tough question for me. I’ve been a psychiatrist for almost 15 years. In that time, I’ve seen thousands of patients. Many are non-believers. But for others, faith is integral to who they are. In these cases, am I in a bad position to give care?

Really? Do people really think that atheists are so blinded by our lack of religious belief that we can't separate that from our work. Do they think I have an impossible time teaching non-atheist students? How can I possibly relate?

And this (from the article). Oy. Far too many people that are religious think that atheists can't have values of charity and empathy:

But though I wasn’t raised religious, I’d grown up around enough Christians to know how important the values of charity and empathy were in theory, if not always in practice. I hoped that she used these items as symbols of those values and would be kind. Fortunately, she was. I only saw her a few times, but her caring manner was enough to get me back on track.

And this segue to the conclusion just smacks of "well, we have to let the religious know that they are awesome." (yes, yes, I get that in the context of being a therapist):

With my nonreligious background, my therapeutic approach has been to remain nonjudgmental. It can be awkward when a patient asks me if I’m religious or believe in God, usually after they’ve lost a loved one. I try to deflect the question back to them. “If you believe in God and going to church,” I say, “those are important ways for you to draw strength at this difficult time.”

I'm quite sure plenty will be salivating about this article because it is SOOOOOOOO different from what the nasty "new atheists" would do which is take a giant shit on any believers.

[uppityperson]

1. ETA I am unfamiliar with any relationship between that group and this and only meant to give

Last edited Mon Jan 26, 2015, 07:10 PM - Edit history (2)

another link. My apologies if I over stepped.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218179435

[Goblinmonger]

3. Yup. I think the discussion could be more atheist-centered here

without what I'm sure would be cries of "stop saying we are delusional."

[cleanhippie]

10. It's posted there as flamebait.

Period.

[Curmudgeoness]

13. Some of us don't feel welcome there.

We want to have discussion, and end up with arguments all the time. I suppose there is a time and place for both, but defending ourselves against ridicule and accusations gets old.

[edgineered]

20. glad it is posted here

had you, or a member of this group, posted this somewhere else i would still have clicked on it.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

2. God, yes.

After all, you already have all the proof you need to diagnose them with a mental illness.

[jeff47]

4. There's lots of crutches used on the way to mental health.

From Prozac to Jesus. Just because one crutch has a lot of big buildings doesn't mean it can't be useful in treatment.

[Goblinmonger]

6. Yup.

That's a pretty solid point.

[trotsky]

5. Well apparently there are a lot of people who are too stupid to realize...

that in our professional and personal lives away from DU we don't scream "GOD DOESN'T EXIST!! YOU'RE DELUSIONAL!!! WHARRGARBL!!!" at everyone we meet.

But then that wouldn't fit the meme they've created about horrible bigoted evil malcontent anti-theist monsters who are exactly the same as the insane rabid religious fundamentalists. Because you know, we feel comfortable voicing our opinions online.

[jeff47]

7. You don't?!?!?!

No wonder I've been getting strange looks from the other people in the office.

[mr blur]

12. Well, I do.

It makes them feel persecuted and as you know there's nothing they enjoy more. It's my way of bringing some joy into their sterile little lives.

[Jeff Murdoch]

24. sounds like a win-win

[onager]

21. That squares with what I've seen on the Internetz.

About professional lives.

One example I've seen: a woman MD, atheist, who mostly works with poor elderly people in a very conservative rural area of the USA. She has understandable concerns about her patients finding out she's an atheist. She provides the only medical care these people can get/afford, and she doesn't want them fretting about seeing an atheist doctor - in addition to their medical problems.

It's funny to see reactions from non-Americans about her concerns. They're much like the reactions we sometimes see from Mr. Blur and other non-Americans in here: "Being known as an atheist is a problem in the Land of the Free? Srsly? Freedom of religion etc. etc. Damn! How can this be?"

[JDDavis]

8. I think the question is better aimed at believer-psychiatrists

How are they qualified to treat non-believing people without letting the bias of their belief-systems enter into the treatment path? We have cases of people studying to be professionals in the mental health field who complain because their "religious beliefs" say that LGBT folks cannot be considered "normal" or "healthy" as LGBT folks. They refuse to treat certain groups because of religious beliefs, and get kicked out of professional training programs because of those beliefs, and then they complain that their "religious freedom" has been assaulted.

As we have seen so many times in real life, also, religious folks assume they are qualified to "counsel" others. ministers, priests, rabbi's, etc.

Then there are the believers and peer groups who require one "trust in God" to surmount addiction issues, (e.g.: AA and NA).

Extending the analogy further, can a believer be qualified to teach a secular student or a religious skeptic?

Some interesting comments on that article in the WaPo, if you care to read some of them.

Bottom line: are people with deeply held and sincere religious beliefs ever qualified to treat or counsel others without having the counselor's religious beliefs interfere with the mental health treatment plan?

[Curmudgeoness]

11. Those are very important points.

I have never been in therapy, so I have no idea if god ever comes into it, but you are right that there are groups that actually do use belief as a part of the treatment. This makes me wonder if a believer can counsel a non-believer. I would assume that they could, as long as they are not fanatics. But I am not sure.

[Warren Stupidity]

9. If I went to a therapist with a giant cross on the wall I would leave immediately.

I don't care if people are religious, but if they think they need to flaunt their idiotic beliefs that is a bit of a problem. I can't imagine an atheist therapist would decorate her office with, err, um, well fuck it, with a giant picture of DASKWIS!NS! just in case her patients were wondering where she stood on the whole gods question.

[AtheistCrusader]

15. If I see a single magazine about homeopathy, I bail.

Gone baby, gone. Play voodoo with some idiot that will at least fall for the placebo effect, leave my wallet alone.

[AtheistCrusader]

14. I know, lets go ask the religious subject matter experts!

Wait, they aren't subject matter experts in anything at all.

Well, let's just make it up as we go then.

[Panich52]

16. There's a diff between faithful & delusional

While 'delusional' seems a good description f/ believers in omnipotent, omniscient entities, there are those who don't let it interfere with living rational lives. A psychiatrist or psychologist who is decently qualified should be able to tell the difference. One delusional belief doesn't necessarily make for a delusional lifestyle.

A teacher, esp one in the sciences, has a more relevant issue, specifically in teaching biology or maybe even geology.

[AlbertCat]

28. there are those who don't let it interfere with living rational lives.

I dunno.

Most people go about their daily business without a thought of gods... even if they unthinkingly go thru the routine of saying grace and stuff like that. Do they believe in a living god while they are not even thinking about him or acting on the belief (that they obviously DON'T really share) that he guides and interacts with them? It's like they only believe when "pressed"...y'know asked about it, or go thru a ritual (like attending church) or are swearing or wishing for something. Those who DO think and act with god in mind all the time are very difficult to deal with.

How can you truly believe and live rationally? It seems the rational part of believer's lives are when they are not believing at the moment.

[skepticscott]

17. It's more than a bit disingenuous

for this person to pretend that he's asking a profound and difficult question, or raising a new and novel issue. He very likely covered it in Medical Ethics 101, and knows the answer quite well.

But hey, he got a few column inches out of it, and got to strut around like a good faitheist.

[Act_of_Reparation]

18. That's interesting...

...because I encountered the answer to his question in my undergraduate intro to psychology course. It's called "unconditional positive regard".

Gee, what a brain-buster that one is.

[skepticscott]

19. Exactly...I don't this is at all a difficult or controversial question

And the author undoubtedly knows that, but thought it would be a good segway into strutting what a "good" atheist they are.

[Act_of_Reparation]

22. The whole thing is spurious.

First, it is worth pointing out: psychiatrists are medical doctors. They are generally concerned with the prescribing and monitoring the effects of prescribed drugs. Therapy is usually left to therapists... who typically hold Ph.D.'s or Master's degrees in psychology. If this guy is a psychiatrist, I don't understand what his hang-up is, as it is very unlikely he's getting very deep into counseling with his patients.

Just as an anecdotal story, here's my experience with psychiatrists:

I went to a psychiatrist's office. I met with a Nurse Practitioner, who administered a multi-factor diagnostic survey. I pinged high on depression and anxiety. She asked if I objected to taking medication. I said no. She wrote me a script for fluoxetine and suggested I seek out a professional for cognitive-behavioral therapy.

Since then, I go to the psychiatrist's office once every 90 days to renew my prescription. The same nurse practitioner asks if I am suffering any negative side effects. I say no. They refill my RX.

I've never actually met my attending psychiatrist.

But even if we assume this guy is an exception--that he's a psychiatrist who is actively dispensing therapy to his patients--then, as you say, this huge moral quandary he seemingly stumbled upon should not seem like such a huge moral quandary... because it is something that is dealt with in painful detail in even the most remedial psychology courses. The therapist is there to listen to the patient, not to provide their opinions on the existence of God or the hereafter. If they disagree with the patient on these matters, they will never make it known, unless they feel the patient's beliefs to be significantly deleterious to their socio-occupational functioning (that is, if they think these beliefs pose a threat to the patient or others).

[Tobin S.]

23. I'm just honest about who I am

My wife is a liberal Christian and she knows I have no use for religion. She knew that from the start and she was honest about her beliefs from the get-go as well. It was the main thing that I thought might get in the way of us having a good relationship. However, our differences in this regard have not hindered us in the least and have provided for some lively conversations.

If you can avoid a knee-jerk reaction to go on the offensive when talking to people about this issue in person, it can lead to some very good talks. I sometimes let it rip in this forum because I need a release and this is a safe outlet. I'm much more diplomatic out in the real world, and I think most people are.

Someone up-thread said the answer to this issue is very simple and usually covered early in a psychologist's training. Beyond that minor dilemma, I think the best policy is just to be open about who we are with our acquaintances, friends, and family. If it's going to hurt you if you reveal your true views, I don't have a problem with lying in that situation.

[kdmorris]

25. If men can be OB/GYNs then an atheist can counsel a patient that believes in god

What makes anyone think that just because you don't share a characteristic with someone, you cannot be a good doctor to them.

It's called education and empathy... therefore, yeah, he totally can.

[skepticscott]

27. Exactly...there are all sorts of examples

that make it clear just how shallow and vapid a question this is.

[AlbertCat]

29. What makes anyone think that just because you don't share a characteristic with someone...

... you cannot be a good doctor to them. "


Religion?





I mean, with companies as well as individuals wearing their religion on their sleeves, and these days insisting their beliefs are not to be ridiculed or hindered in any way....even if part of their job description might tangentially "support" something their religion doesn't... there's this notion that one only has to work and deal with like minded individuals. They don't have times for those who disagree with them and they are done with them. THEY'D never be a good doctor to someone who doesn't share their beliefs.

Everyone's like that, right? Not just 4 year olds.

[Binkie The Clown]

26. Speaking as an atheist...

years ago when my wife passed away from cancer I had some trouble coping and I visited a psychologist 3 or 4 times. The first thing I noticed was the diploma on his wall was from a Christian university. I told him up front I was an atheist and I hoped that didn't bother him. He smiled and said that he thought I was probably right be he wasn't quite brave enough to be an atheist.

He helped me through my transition, and in return, I paid the bill he sent me. Everybody was happy.