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Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
Tue Mar 10, 2015, 06:43 PM Mar 2015

Imagining vs Belief.

Over in a forum dedicated to toxicity, "belief" and "imagination" are being described as equivalent.

What is wrong with this idea?


imagine
[ih-maj-in]
verb (used with object), imagined, imagining.
1. to form a mental image of (something not actually present to the senses).
2. to think, believe, or fancy:
He imagined the house was haunted.
3. to assume; suppose:
I imagine they'll be here soon.
4. to conjecture; guess:
I cannot imagine what you mean.

be·lief
bəˈlēf/
noun
1. an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"
something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion or conviction.
"contrary to popular belief, Aramaic is a living language"
synonyms: opinion, view, conviction, judgment, thinking, way of thinking, idea, impression, theory, conclusion, notion
"it's my belief that age is irrelevant"
a religious conviction.
"Christian beliefs"
synonyms: ideology, principle, ethic, tenet, canon; More
2. trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
"a belief in democratic politics"
synonyms: faith, trust, reliance, confidence, credence
"belief in the value of hard work"


This is how an argument by equivocation works. You can take a secondary meaning of imagine: to think, believe, or fancy, tie it to a secondary meaning of belief: trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something, and then use that to declare the primary meanings identical, when in fact they are nearly opposite.
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JDDavis

(725 posts)
1. I'm not the smartest bulb on this atheist tree, but
Tue Mar 10, 2015, 07:25 PM
Mar 2015

Aren't most religious beliefs mostly formed or born of each individual's imagination?

Imagination influenced by other's talk about their own imaginations, of course.

I'm not sure I get your point, or maybe I do, and this is just a rhetorical question.

 

AlbertCat

(17,505 posts)
3. Imagination influenced by other's talk about their own imaginations, of course.
Tue Mar 10, 2015, 08:16 PM
Mar 2015

It seems to me one can imagine something, and not believe in it. Otherwise, we'd never have fiction!

They are clearly 2 different acts, Imagining and believing.

 

JDDavis

(725 posts)
5. I think what we have here is two very ambiguous verbs/nouns
Tue Mar 10, 2015, 08:48 PM
Mar 2015

Imagine: imagination

Believe: Belief

I see lots of similaryt between those two words, (in certain contexts, of course).

I can read a novel, a play, a book of history or report on some event or trend in my world.

I "imagine" the life of Romeo and Juliet, their families, the dialogs and solliloquies.

I "believe" the book "Making of the President, 1968"

Both not equal, but the verb "believe" and nown "belief" fail me, as inadequate in our language.

Imagine, and imagination: I think I have those two under control in terms of their lack of ambiguity.

Just so we are clear here: I "believe" all religionista's are always engaged in "imaginatino" when they talk about their religions.

Enough said to say where I am on this topic. Hope I did not distract from the OP's intent here too much.

 

AlbertCat

(17,505 posts)
2. OMG!!!!! The DICTIONARY????? Really????
Tue Mar 10, 2015, 08:10 PM
Mar 2015

I mean when you have to resort to bringing out the dictionary to look up the actual definition, when you KNOW they were using the words in a completely different meaning just means.... hell, bub.... you've lost!

And by "lost" I mean "appearing sane to a normal, educated person".... not the definition in the damn dictionary!

I'm now being asked to define "Supernatural" as something that science merely hasn't explained yet. But even tho this is part of the definition, something has to actually exist for science to explain it. Science doesn't so much explain the supernatural as showing it's not there. So I think any reasonable definition must include the fact that it is not there, not just disproved.

 

bvf

(6,604 posts)
7. Somebody's really argued for that definition
Tue Mar 10, 2015, 08:51 PM
Mar 2015

of "supernatural"? That it refers to anything science has not yet explained??

Can't imagine who, but I have a good idea.

 

bvf

(6,604 posts)
4. Language is slippery.
Tue Mar 10, 2015, 08:42 PM
Mar 2015

And that's a fact.

I imagine it's time for a beer. I believe I'll have one, knowing that I've got one in the fridge.

Excellent.

 

JDDavis

(725 posts)
6. GREAT use of language, so now
Tue Mar 10, 2015, 08:49 PM
Mar 2015

pass me an "imaginary" beer, please.

( I know you won't pass me one of your imaginary gods to play with or drink up.)


Ah, that imaginary beer is so good!

 

JDDavis

(725 posts)
9. Thanks! You have to agree:
Tue Mar 10, 2015, 09:46 PM
Mar 2015

When it comes to imaginary life, it's SO MUCH better than opening the refrigerator and finding that there are no more beers in there.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
10. If you imagine it, and then declare that it's part of your religion...
Wed Mar 11, 2015, 09:09 AM
Mar 2015

then it's no longer imagining, and now an official protected belief. And you can't criticize it, nor certainly mock it, lest you be labeled a filthy bigoted atheist. Well, unless it's one of "those" religions that are lesser than the others and that are OK to mock, since the civility police do it themselves.

 

AlbertCat

(17,505 posts)
11. then it's no longer imagining,
Wed Mar 11, 2015, 11:12 AM
Mar 2015

Especially if someone else "believes" in your "imaginings" too! You might want to work on ways to make that happen. Like "you can't criticize it, nor certainly mock it".

Because someone who believes in their own imaginings... and others'.... wholeheartedly, no matter what, is certainly not... "delusional".


Hell... I believe in a cat on a leopard chaise hurdling thru space...

 

AlbertCat

(17,505 posts)
14. The fact that one can use the phrase "believe in their imaginings" illustrates the difference.
Wed Mar 11, 2015, 11:42 AM
Mar 2015

Then there's the subtlety of "to believe" and "to believe in"...something.


But they are distinctly separate...one requiring an object and one intransitive to begin with.

The problem is language is complicated, but in this instance, not TOO complicated.


I once had an argument with a very intelligent friend of mine who insisted the sentence "The King meets the Bishop" means the same thing as "The Bishop meets the King." They DO NOT mean the same thing. I could not get him to understand that one noun acts, and the other is acted upon, so when you switch them, the meaning changes.

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