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Renew Deal

(81,839 posts)
Sun Jan 17, 2016, 11:58 PM Jan 2016

Sanders lost on two big points and I think it cost him the debate.

Point 1: He hit Hillary for distorting his health care position. She defended herself and counter-attacked that we couldn't pass the public option, and we cannot start over with single payer. She basically said it was too hard and I think she effectively made her point.

Point 2: There was an argument about Wall St, Great Recession, etc. Hillary hit Bernie on voting to deregulate part of the financial sector. Bernie looked bemused and didn't defend himself at all.

Bonus point: Sanders was asked why Single Payer didn't happen in VT after the ACA passed. Sanders said they should ask the Vermont governor. That was a bad answer.

67 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Sanders lost on two big points and I think it cost him the debate. (Original Post) Renew Deal Jan 2016 OP
I like how she took care of the problem in Flint. hill2016 Jan 2016 #1
She did not 'take care of the problem in Flint' for goodness sake Kentonio Jan 2016 #7
Yes the Governor acted because Hillary told him to cut it out. Armstead Jan 2016 #14
Same As Her Admonition To Wall Street... Wink and A Nod... "Just Cut It Out..." CorporatistNation Jan 2016 #17
she went on a teevee show while Bernie demanded the governor RESIGN nashville_brook Jan 2016 #36
Which any armchair quarterback could have done. leftofcool Jan 2016 #44
Why don't other Clinton supporters get embarrassed by your claims and say something? DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2016 #40
Lol 840high Jan 2016 #59
Not so good on guns either. ucrdem Jan 2016 #2
The PLCAA makes perfect sense. JonLeibowitz Jan 2016 #8
Not to Bernie it doesn't. ucrdem Jan 2016 #21
Bernie has a nuanced position. I'm not surprised that some cannot grasp it. JonLeibowitz Jan 2016 #22
Yes he was for it before he was against it. nt ucrdem Jan 2016 #25
Oh yeah. Bernie is a real flip-flopper. Run with it. Ed Suspicious Jan 2016 #28
K&R mcar Jan 2016 #3
Saying Dretownblues Jan 2016 #4
But h can't overcome the fact that the nation knows her. nt artislife Jan 2016 #5
Hillary IS Terrible! CorporatistNation Jan 2016 #18
I thought Hillary was terrible on healthcare and Bernie was awesome Fast Walker 52 Jan 2016 #6
About that deregulation. Skwmom Jan 2016 #9
Agreed. Eric J in MN Jan 2016 #31
Pfft, enough with this petty bickering, they all three did just fine.. Jack-o-Lantern Jan 2016 #10
I did not know about his 2000 vote. hrmjustin Jan 2016 #11
Neither did I but this explains it snoringvoter Jan 2016 #15
Start with the post by Skwmom above Armstead Jan 2016 #16
Answer to your bonus question snoringvoter Jan 2016 #12
"No we can't." Not a very inspiring message Armstead Jan 2016 #13
For some reason all the Hillary people are on board with SheilaT Jan 2016 #19
Exactly! nt retrowire Jan 2016 #26
Some of us are very happy with the insurance we have. leftofcool Jan 2016 #46
Oh, so it's the famous Republican attitude of "I've got mine, fuck you!"?? kath Jan 2016 #52
Good. And everyone else should SheilaT Jan 2016 #58
lmao here's a counter to all of your BS. retrowire Jan 2016 #20
The answer on Vermont Single Payer was horrible for Sanders Gothmog Jan 2016 #23
So he should've answered something he had nothing to do with? nt retrowire Jan 2016 #24
The logistics of adopting a single payer system are daunting Gothmog Jan 2016 #27
Either he didn't know what happened in Vermont or didn't care RandySF Jan 2016 #30
I think the American people Jenny_92808 Jan 2016 #29
And how many people voted in all of those polls? RandySF Jan 2016 #32
Go to their sites Jenny_92808 Jan 2016 #34
I mean RandySF Jan 2016 #35
Oh FFS! Yea, we have seen all the stupid online polls. leftofcool Jan 2016 #48
Thank you for gathering all those. SheilaT Jan 2016 #33
I do not agree with Points 1 and your Bonus point Samantha Jan 2016 #37
So Hillary won by saying single payer is "too hard"? mhatrw Jan 2016 #38
Sanders easily won the debate. Also, he's not a liar. DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2016 #39
Did Bernie vote for it? Renew Deal Jan 2016 #41
I won't play dumb little games with you, but I will help you flesh this out. DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2016 #42
+10,000 nt Live and Learn Jan 2016 #43
You can admit you're wrong now Renew Deal Jan 2016 #45
Nope. We're not writing a bumper sticker, and this is a forum for adults. DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2016 #47
So, Obama=bad and Bernie=good! UGH! leftofcool Jan 2016 #50
You're not very competent when it comes to re-stating my post. You own your words, and I own mine. DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2016 #51
Sanders lost because he's not a Democrat... joeybee12 Jan 2016 #49
No Democrat will ever support him. leftofcool Jan 2016 #54
But they are. ??? nt retrowire Jan 2016 #57
Nonsense Art_from_Ark Jan 2016 #64
Says no one but Hillary supporters. eom Fawke Em Jan 2016 #53
And Paul Krugman Renew Deal Jan 2016 #55
Looks like you thought wrong since nearly everyone says he won. Live and Learn Jan 2016 #56
Truth? Hillary supporters? 840high Jan 2016 #60
I know, oxymoron. nt Live and Learn Jan 2016 #61
Not everyone Renew Deal Jan 2016 #62
I said nearly, did I not? There are always a few that just don't get it. nt Live and Learn Jan 2016 #63
Indeed Renew Deal Jan 2016 #65
Fortunately, most of us do. nt Live and Learn Jan 2016 #67
You must have watched a different debate. Bernie clearly won the debate that I saw. bowens43 Jan 2016 #66
 

hill2016

(1,772 posts)
1. I like how she took care of the problem in Flint.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 12:00 AM
Jan 2016

Did not say "not my problem, ask the Governor of Michigan".

CorporatistNation

(2,546 posts)
17. Same As Her Admonition To Wall Street... Wink and A Nod... "Just Cut It Out..."
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 12:36 AM
Jan 2016

RIDICULOUS! She is soooo full of herself which is half of her problem aside from her bloviating and prevarications fusilade style!

nashville_brook

(20,958 posts)
36. she went on a teevee show while Bernie demanded the governor RESIGN
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 01:06 AM
Jan 2016



Sanders: Snyder should resign over Flint water crisis

Democratic presidential candidate and Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders has called for Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder to resign over Flint’s lead-contaminated water supply, calling it “one of the worst public health crises in the modern history of this country.”

In an exclusive interview Saturday with The Detroit News, Sanders said Snyder’s multiple apologies for his administration allowing Flint water to go untreated for preventing corrosion of lead-soldered pipes “is just not good enough.”

“And I think the governor has got to take the responsibility and say, ‘You know what, my administration was absolutely negligent and a result of that negligence, many children may suffer for the rest of their lives and the right thing to do is to resign,’” Sanders said in a telephone interview from Vermont.

snip

Appearing on the CBS Sunday talk show “Face The Nation,” Clinton said Snyder should have sought federal emergency assistance “weeks ago." But the former secretary of state did not go as far as Sanders did in calling for Snyder to leave office just one year into his second term.

“I don’t want to get caught up in the political back-and-forth here, I want to help the people of Flint,” Clinton said. “And I particularly want a comprehensive health analysis of what’s happened to these children.”

snip

Sanders said the state-appointed emergency manager money-saving use of Flint River water was shortsighted given the long-term damage caused to Flint’s water pipeline and residents’ health.

“It just tells me that we have a lot of these anti-government folks running administrations all over this country who could care less about the well being of our children, whether it’s in education, whether it’s in health, whether it’s environmentally,” Sanders said. “It’s just unacceptable.”

“You don’t save money while poisoning our children, that is is not acceptable.”

Sanders noted Flint is a majority African American city whose residents “don’t have a whole lot of money.”

“It’s an outrage and it’s unacceptable and I think the governor has got to accept this responsibility and do the right thing, and that is to resign,” Sanders told The News.


snip

The independent Vermont senator, who is a democratic-socialist but votes with Democrats in the U.S. Senate, said he wasn’t weighing in on Flint’s crisis just because Clinton has been all week. Clinton dispatched two top campaign aides to Flint on Wednesday to meet with Mayor Karen Weaver.

“It’s not Sen. Clinton ... it’s not a question of compelled, it’s a question of understanding that when you have a crisis of this proportion, it’s absolutely imperative that the governor accept his responsibility, show the people of Flint and Michigan that he does appreciate the calamity that he caused and has the courage to the right thing, which is step down,” Sanders said.
 

DisgustipatedinCA

(12,530 posts)
40. Why don't other Clinton supporters get embarrassed by your claims and say something?
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 02:56 PM
Jan 2016

Any port in a storm, I guess.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
2. Not so good on guns either.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 12:00 AM
Jan 2016

Basically he didn't have an answer for why he'd voted for all that NRA-friendly legislation. Except his D-minus which is getting a little long in the tooth LOL. . .

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
21. Not to Bernie it doesn't.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 12:49 AM
Jan 2016

Apparently he changed his position on it just before the debate. He had a little trouble explaining why though.

CorporatistNation

(2,546 posts)
18. Hillary IS Terrible!
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 12:37 AM
Jan 2016

I shudder at the thought of listening and seeing her for 4 years or more... However unlikely!

Skwmom

(12,685 posts)
9. About that deregulation.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 12:21 AM
Jan 2016

The act was stealthily tucked into a bloated 11,000 page conference report when no one was looking, and passed by a lopsided 377-4 margin during a lame-duck session with a veto-proof majority -- not that it needed one. President Clinton (you know part of the two for the price of one couple), who had been lobbying behind the scenes in support of the act while publicly harrumphing about the evils of deregulation, signed it into law without batting an eye.

Eric J in MN

(35,619 posts)
31. Agreed.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 12:58 AM
Jan 2016

In addition, Senator Phil Gramm (R-TX) is the person most responsible for the Commidities Future Modernization Act being so bad.

Jack-o-Lantern

(966 posts)
10. Pfft, enough with this petty bickering, they all three did just fine..
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 12:27 AM
Jan 2016

Compare them to the shit slinging monkeys of the repub debates.

 

snoringvoter

(178 posts)
12. Answer to your bonus question
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 12:31 AM
Jan 2016

It is correct that Shumlin decided to dump single payer, not giving it an effort.

I believe Cali has covered this many times.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
13. "No we can't." Not a very inspiring message
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 12:32 AM
Jan 2016

But I do agree that Bernie should have said something about that vote, and the actual context.

 

SheilaT

(23,156 posts)
19. For some reason all the Hillary people are on board with
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 12:42 AM
Jan 2016

"We couldn't get the public option in 2009 (we didn't actually try, but who cares about facts?) and so there is no point in ever trying."

Why? We do NOT have the best possible health care system, and a lot of people know that. I do honestly think that the ACA was just the first step to some sort of universal health care/single payer, and saying we can't ever go that route is at best disingenuous. At worst, it shows a callous disregard for an awful lot of people.

 

SheilaT

(23,156 posts)
58. Good. And everyone else should
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 03:34 PM
Jan 2016

have the same kind of insurance. Unless you're perfectly okay with millions who don't have any at all, and those who have crappy, expensive insurance.

retrowire

(10,345 posts)
20. lmao here's a counter to all of your BS.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 12:43 AM
Jan 2016

Point 1. Hillary didn't do herself any good by lying and trying to continue the idea that he's getting rid of ACA and that we'd be "starting over" and "undoing all this work on the ACA" So... how does Bernie lose? Oh yeah, if the American people fall for blatant lies, sure, but that's politics right?

Point 2. Bernie wasn't even allowed to retort several times during the debate. And this is no loss on Bernie's end because it's already public knowledge that Bernie has the superior plan for wall st, Hillary is a fox guarding the hen house. Besides, bringing up some vague thing he did from years ago isn't really all that earth shattering compared to the facts that keep coming out against Hillary regarding wall st.

Bonus point: Bernie gave an excellent answer. Single Payer didn't happen in VT because he had nothing to do with it, go ask the governor. Clear as day.

Gothmog

(144,832 posts)
27. The logistics of adopting a single payer system are daunting
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 12:57 AM
Jan 2016

Sanders home state tried and failed. It is not realistic to believe that Sanders would have any luck. The question was fair and Sanders' answer exposed the problems with his proposal

 

Jenny_92808

(1,342 posts)
29. I think the American people
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 12:57 AM
Jan 2016

think otherwise.

Who won tonights debate

Fox's conservative viewers
Bernie Sanders 91.31%
Hillary Clinton 6.73%
Martin O'Malley 1.96%

Heavy.com poll
Bernie Sanders 89.98%
Hillary Clinton 8.01%
Martin O'Malley 2.01%

Time.com
Bernie Sanders 88.00%
Hillary Clinton 9.00%
Martin O'Malley 3.00%

Slate's poll
Bernie Sanders 86.00%
Hillary Clinton 10.00%
Martin O'Malley 2.00%

politicususa.com
Bernie Sanders 1
Hillary Clinton 2
Martin O'Malley 3

Political People Blog
Bernie Sanders 93.84
Hillary Clinton 4.95
Martin O'Malley 1.21

 

SheilaT

(23,156 posts)
33. Thank you for gathering all those.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 01:01 AM
Jan 2016

Now, shall we take bets as to how quickly they will be scrubbed?

Or has the MSM been acknowledging that Bernie won? No TV here, so I haven't been watching any post debate analysis.

Samantha

(9,314 posts)
37. I do not agree with Points 1 and your Bonus point
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 01:17 AM
Jan 2016

I have no opinion on Point 2.

Point 1 -- we already have passed the public option. In a very small, seldom-noticed paragraph buried in The Affordable Care Act, we gave states the option of starting a single payer system within their state if they so desired. That is exactly where the State of Vermont got its authority for trying to start one, and there were several others that looked into it as well. Specifically, I remember Montana really wanted to have a single payer plan.

Bonus Point: what exactly could Bernie say that would not be offensive to the Governor of Vermont for failing to get the job done. "Ask him" was the diplomatic and correct answer to this question. The Governor was in charge and could not get it done.

Sam

mhatrw

(10,786 posts)
38. So Hillary won by saying single payer is "too hard"?
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 02:54 PM
Jan 2016

You know, just like the way a college student who quickly drops out of a difficult class "wins". Right?

 

DisgustipatedinCA

(12,530 posts)
39. Sanders easily won the debate. Also, he's not a liar.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 02:55 PM
Jan 2016

But Bill Clinton rammed through the bill you're referring to. It takes a very special kind of liar to use this against Sanders when your husband rammed the thing through.

 

DisgustipatedinCA

(12,530 posts)
42. I won't play dumb little games with you, but I will help you flesh this out.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 03:05 PM
Jan 2016

First, tell me how many congresspeople DIDN'T vote for this bill. I'll wait.
Second, tell me which executive rammed this bill through and signed it.

Answer those questions, and we'll continue, having a full background with which to work.

 

DisgustipatedinCA

(12,530 posts)
47. Nope. We're not writing a bumper sticker, and this is a forum for adults.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 03:11 PM
Jan 2016

Answer the questions or run along.

leftofcool

(19,460 posts)
50. So, Obama=bad and Bernie=good! UGH!
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 03:14 PM
Jan 2016

Bernie can keep his grubby paws off of my insurance which I happen to like very much.

 

joeybee12

(56,177 posts)
49. Sanders lost because he's not a Democrat...
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 03:12 PM
Jan 2016

Never was, never will be. Is it any wonder elected Dems aren't supporting him? He never went out there and campaigned for them and helped them get elected. Bernie is only about Bernie and plenty of people see through that.

Art_from_Ark

(27,247 posts)
64. Nonsense
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 04:06 PM
Jan 2016

Bernie attended a Democratic fundraiser on Martha's Vineyard last July, and was criticized for it by the same people who are always trying to tear him down. He also campaigned for Democratic candidates Chui Garcia and Susan Sadlowski Garza in Chicago in last year's municipal election.

 

bowens43

(16,064 posts)
66. You must have watched a different debate. Bernie clearly won the debate that I saw.
Mon Jan 18, 2016, 04:24 PM
Jan 2016

so in your opinion giving up because its too hard is a good thing?!??! really?

Would vote for a candidate whose slogan seems to be 'it's too hard,so fuck it....'?

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