Bernie is a great guy. But he is now faltering because of OVER-REACH.

[RBInMaine]

Last edited Sun Jan 24, 2016, 09:55 AM - Edit history (1)

Americans are PRAGMATIC at heart. The majority of Americans are relatively MODERATE. Many, like me, may love Bernie in many ways. But we all know that single payer healthcare JUST WON'T HAPPEN at least anytime soon. We all know that there was much more to the financial crisis than just the big banks. We all know that FREE tuition isn't going to happen anytime soon.

Yes, we need vision. We need "big." But Bernie very simply goes TOO BIG, and people start to in fact use their heads and say "Great ideas, but just not practical." It's like Trump saying, "We are going to make Apple Computer Company do all their manufacturing in the U.S.!!" or "When I'm president, we are going to put 'Christmas' back on Starbuck's cups." or "We are going to deny all Muslims entry into the country." It's NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. And it diminishes the candidate's credibility.

As to Trump, his base is INSANE, so they'll vote for him anyway. Not so with Dems. We are more THOUGHTFUL. I love Bernie. I agree with so much of what he says. But at the end of the day, TOO MUCH OF WHAT HE IS PROPOSING ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN. He will not have the votes in the Congress, and he won't have enough public support.

Hillary on the other hand is proposing to FIX AND EXPAND THE AFFORDABLE CARE ACT, move to DEBT FREE COLLEGE (not "tuition free&quot , SIGNIFICANT FINANCIAL REFORM, SMART GUN SAFETY REFORM, and other proposals that ARE ALSO VISIONARY but MUCH more DOABLE.

I don't always like Hillary's attacks, and she has stumbled with some of them, but some of her criticisms of Bernie's proposals are FAIR because they are simply UNDOABLE. She does need to be more inspiring in her own right, and when she speaks passionately about HER PROPOSALS and HER ISSUES she does better.

As I have long predicted, Hillary will win this nomination. She will most likely win Iowa. NH probably goes to Bernie since he lives right next door. I think she will have the nomination wrapped up after Super Tuesday. God Bless Bernie, but he is simply OVER-REACHING. Yes, think big. But you also have to ALWAYS CONSIDER WHAT IS TRULY DOABLE or your credibility simply goes to hell.

[hobbit709]

1. Never dare to try because we can't win if we do-the new meme from the Clinton camp.

[RBInMaine]

4. Please tell me how he will actually PASS single-payer and tuition-free college? Hm? Hm? TELL ME!

Especially with a most-likely R-House? Hm? Is there a REAL answer to that anywhere near your thought process?

[hobbit709]

7. And what exactly will HRC get done with the same House?

At least I think as opposed to blindly follow.

[malthaussen]

20. I know, that drives me crazy.

How Mrs Clinton is supposed to wave the magic wand, but Mr Sanders is doomed if Congress doesn't change, has always seemed to me a rather glaring lacuna in the Clinton camp's argument.

-- Mal

[uponit7771]

57. What she can do unilaterally, HRC isn't proffering magical asterisks Sanders is

[RBInMaine]

59. "Blindly follow"? I thought Clinton's people were supposed to be the arrogant ones? You've proven

me wrong. I have said it MANY times and will AGAIN. I love Bernie. Great, well meaning guy. But he is just off the charts with his proposals. Great vision, but not practical. He also doesn't have the right kind of foreign policy experience, and as a self declared socialist he will have MASSIVE problems because the R's will put out EVERY type of ad in ALL forms of media night and day screeching "socialist socialist socialist!!!!" Great guy. But too many fundamentals are out of alignment for him.

[hobbit709]

60. Those who never dare deserve to fail.

You're like the settlers in that DirecTV commercial.

[snoringvoter]

48. Oh, we should quit right now?

What if Bernie can and may be able to overcome the House gerrymandering and bring enough Democrats to make it worthwhile as well as the Senate?

Bernie can very easily bring the end of the concept of gerrymandering.

[Stuckinthebush]

2. Excellent post!

And spot on.

Ignore the attacks that will come because you have stated it perfectly. It's about pragmatism.

Most liberals I know love Sanders and appreciate his vision. They realize, however, that it isn't realistic.

[RBInMaine]

58. Thanks. :-)

[Vattel]

3. Single payer is undoable?

Sanders doesn't think that he will step into office and immediately establish a single payer system. The most important thing is to convince enough citizens that healthcare is a right and that the current system needs RADICAL (not moderate) change. The rest will be worked out. Clinton is trying to convince people that single payer is a bad system. That is not helpful.

[Armstead]

6. +10000

[RBInMaine]

12. I agree with single payer. But it won't happen anytime soon if ever.

The social movement for his proposals needs to happen FIRST. Next, he doesn't say that he won't go for single payer LATER. When does he say that? Maybe he KNOWS that, but what does he SAY? He just SAYS he wants single payer.

Look, I want it too. I wish we could have it tomorrow. But Hillary is RIGHT. We just got the ACA. We need to make THAT work better and expand it. The nation won't have the stomach anytime soon for a whole new giant fight over healthcare.

[Old Codger]

36. Actually

It will never ever happen if no one tries, if the status quo is the best we can hope for then might as well give up on all of it HUH?


Winners never quit and quitters never win... Not sure about the never tried might be but seems to me it would not get much accomplished either

[Kentonio]

52. You can't build a social movement without enthusiasm, and you don't get that if you don't aim high.

If Bernie gets elected on this platform, then that expresses clearly the desires of the American people. Suddenly all those Dem politicians on the fence and claiming things just aren't practical are made to stand up and explain why. When the Republicans try and obstruct, the President can call them out publicly for rejecting the will of the people, and come the mid-terms leverage that anger into a serious attempt to retake the house.

All these things are achievable, but they'll never happen without a leader up front shooting for the moon and giving people the belief that reshaping the country is indeed possible.

[Ichingcarpenter]

5. Your post I think

AND LESS USE CAPITALS FOR SHOUTING

[farleftlib]

11. I know RIGHT!!?!

because I SUPPORT SANDERS! I can't be taken SERIOUSLY!!1 He can never ever GET THINGS DONE that he says HE CAN.

Get a BRAIN, MORANS.

[RBInMaine]

14. I'm highlighting and accenting, not "shouting." (Bernie shouts a lot. Ever notice that.)

[Ichingcarpenter]

19. To highlight

copy what you want to highlight then press 'excerpt' in the reply section.

like so

or

use the the b to make the word bold

Capitalization is shouting.........

[Ken Burch]

55. You're talking down to us and acting like you're "the only grown-up here".

That attitude never makes anything good happen.

[Puglover]

62. Beat me to it.

I was gonna say the OP's usage of the CAPS KEY really brings the point home.

[last1standing]

8. Bernie goes BIG, NoHope Hillary goes small. Neither get's their agenda through congress.

All things being equal, I'm going to support the candidate with vision and hope versus the candidate who's running on the platform of "dead on arrival."

[Ken Burch]

9. Sure you've used enough "all caps" there?

[RBInMaine]

15. Just as many as Bernie uses in his speeches and debates.

[Ken Burch]

29. It's not possible to use "all caps" when you talk.

And we both know that no good can come of a Democratic president starting out by announcing that she or he will only ask for tiny changes. if you start small, you end up with nothing.

If HRC got in facing a GOP Congress, they'd vote down everything she proposed too, just because she's a woman and slightly pro-choice. Why do you guys even pretend Ryan and McConnell would work with her? No Republicans ever worked with her in the Senate (unless it was her supporting Republican bills, which doesn't count).

[cherokeeprogressive]

32. More caps or more cowbells... I don't know which the OP needs. What I DO know is it made a...

Big ass smokin' hole when it hit the ground.

[Fawke Em]

10. He's not faultering. eom

[Ken Burch]

13. It would only be undoable if he promised it all instantly.

Nobody is arguing that just electing Bernie will make all of those things happen.

But we can't achieve anything if we don't even propose big ideas.

A Democratic president who goes into office proposing nothing bit increments is doomed to failure.

Why START by settling for crumbs?

Why give up before even trying?

God knows what the Civil Rights Act of 1964 would have been reduced to if HRC had taken your defeatist attitude.

[RBInMaine]

17. Debt free college, expanded ACA, significant financial reform, employee profit sharing, etc.are BIG.

There is "big" and then there is UNDOABLE. You are for UNDOABLE.

[hobbit709]

25. If people had never tried because something was UNDOABLE

We'd still be living in small groups in caves.

Progress is achieved by trying something new instead of the same old same old.

[redwitch]

40. Exactly!

And we will be going back to that if we don't keep trying!

[Ken Burch]

34. Ending slavery was undoable. The eight-hour day was undoable.

The New Deal was undoable. Ending Jim Crow was undoable. Marriage equality was undoable.

And, since the right in Congress will vote against anything HRC would ever propose, her platform is undoable.

When you get right down to it, what "doable" things could even be worth doing?

[winter is coming]

43. A lot of politically undoable things become doable when enough people want them.

Politicians as a whole won't stick their necks out for ideas that lack widespread public support. If we want single payer, we're going to have to make it so popular that politicians will be more uneasy about their election prospects if they don't support it than if they do. Taking an honest look at the way things stand and changing expectations about how the US can and should treat ordinary people is a vital first step to accomplishing many of the changes Bernie advocates.

[Ken Burch]

44. Agreed. n/t.

[cali]

16. Good. I want someone who will fight for us. And who isn't corrupt

like Hillary.

[RBInMaine]

22. "Tea-Left" hyperbolic meme. The vast majority of Bernie supporters will support Hillary.

[cali]

41. Bullshit. And I'll vote for her if she's the nominee

Better corrupt Hillary than batshit crazy repukes.

Yes, I believe she deeply corrupt.

[snoringvoter]

50. I will not vote for the lesser of the two evils.

I will confidently vote for Bernie twice to get him elected as the President of the United States. There is no need for comparison.

[Indepatriot]

18. Faltering? You're joking right?, we're kickin' ass, and #jamiedimonsabuela is falling apart.

Have you seen any polls lately?, or tha desperate, flailing attacks from Camp#wallstreetlivesmatter?

[RBInMaine]

23. The large majority of polls see Clinton winning Iowa by significant margins.

[Dretownblues]

37. Not really

RCPs average is 6.5 point lead for Clinton, which can be overstated by the Loras poll that had Clinton up by 29. So really the race for Iowa can go either way and will change if MOM doesn't reach the 15% threshold.

[Indepatriot]

38. as they did in 08'...

#wallstreetlivesmatter

[cali]

42. Making stuff up. No, that isn't what the majority of polls indicate.

[marmar]

21. Perhaps you should look up "faltering" in the dictionary

[RBInMaine]

24. He was surging in Iowa but has now stalled. If he loses Iowa, he is DONE.

[Samantha]

46. This is not true

He has enough resources now that just a pretty good showing justifies him continuing, but there is no evidence he is faltering. What is very evident is that the Clinton campaign is desperately pulling out all stops to try to shore up her numbers in Iowa.

Many feel pretty sure he will win New Hampshire; he has led there for a long time. Near tie in Nevada and his numbers are improving in SC.

Bernie is doing great and the negative things going on out there is simply the Clinton campaign trying to stop the Big Mo.

Sam

[malthaussen]

26. And while he's at it, look up "truth" and "opinion."

Although I guess one could argue it is his true opinion.

-- Mal

[Ichingcarpenter]

28. There.......... I did it for him

As he said '' with great hyperbole

The absolute truth

but only a Sith deals in absolutes



Absolute truths are just so much bullshit

[notadmblnd]

27. HRC: NO! We can't!

[pandr32]

30. Agreed

And thank you for pointing this out in such a neutral fashion.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

31. Hillary is a defeatist

Bernie is more like FDR

[peacebird]

33. Hillary is for the 1%, she might toss us a few crumbs. Bernie is willing to shoot for the moon

I prefer someone who is going to fight for changes that benefit the vast majority, over someone who will fight to protect the status quo. Status quo ain't working out so well for most of us, corporate greed needs to be taken on. We need to ditch Saint Ronnie's trickle down economics. Bernie will fight for us, Hillary will fight for her rich buddies.

Oh, and then there is the issue of electability - there is no way she can win in the general election.

[Fuddnik]

35. Sez you.

Pffft.

[KingFlorez]

39. Making proposals is quite simple

Getting them passed is quite difficult. Sanders over promises and I think he is quite aware of that, but does it anyway for political reasons. Being realistic about the odds is not ideological, it is practical.

[Ken Burch]

45. You don't get anything done if you don't overpromise.

Nothing ever got done as a result of under promising.

You HRC types keep forgetting that all of her tiny increments would be blocked by a GOP Congress, too.

And that nobody on that side would ever compromise with her on anything.

[KingFlorez]

51. You miss the point

Just proposing something doesn't make it happen, that is not how things work. Everyone is well aware of how Congress works, which is why it's stupid for Sanders to guarantee that he's going to pass all his proposals within 100 days. That's not realistic, it's merely a campaign gimmick.

[Ken Burch]

54. Of course just proposing doesn't work.

The difference is, after the election, Bernie's supporters will keep mobilizing and building the grassroots support needed to push real change through.

HRC will tell everyone to shut up, give up, and settle for whatever microcrumbs she gives us.

It isn't just about getting elected. It's about actually continually working with activists to reshape the discussion and get control of the debate.

[Ron Green]

47. "RBInMaine," I give you props for not posting hit-and-run,

as you have in the past. You've stayed in the fray here and defended your OP.

You are still wrong, but thanks for your better sportsmanship.

[Orsino]

49. AKA not pre-negotiating away the things we actually need.

I'd rather we lost those things at the table to Republicans than directly and secretly to Wall Street before the work can even begin.

[BigBearJohn]

53. I wonder what you would have said when JFK wanted to take us to the moon

[Nanjeanne]

56. Can't you have Vision and still govern pragmatically?

Considering that Bernie has tons of experience working with Republicans in both House and Senate - was called the Amendment King when in the House - passed significant VA legislature with John McCain - was able to increase funding for disabled vets and their families - managed to get additional funding for healthcare clinics to the tune of additional $11 million in the ACA bill - I think he can "get things done" and govern pragmatically. That said - I want a leader who has a big vision - who can lead us, as JFK did, to "choose the moon" rather than one who's slogan should be "No Idea Too Small".

[shiriu]

61. If americans were pragmatic, they wouldn't have voted for Obama

[99Forever]

63. Isn't that special?

Another "Give up all hope, cuz it's too hard to even try" post from "Camp Weathervane."

It's delightful to watch the wheels come off The Coronation Express.

[Betty Karlson]

64. The establishment has overreached. That's why Sanders is surging! eom

[cali]

65. How dare he challenge the anointed one! He needs to be taken down

[Motown_Johnny]

66. Faltering? Isn't he closer than any Clinton supporter thought he would get?

Just because it can't be done in the short term does not mean it should not be attempted.


Teddy Roosevelt started the discussion about health care as a right in 1912. I guess you would consider that overreaching also.

Your shortsightedness does not define what is attainable or what time frame we should consider when choosing who to support.

[reformist2]

67. We've had "pragmatic" Dems for 25 years, and it's turned us into a minority party.

The people want bold action, no more this "art of the possible", which is just code for what the corporations will allow.

It is possible to have a government that isn't dictated by Big Money. But you have to dare to be idealistic, and to take risks - in other words, you have to be the opposite of "pragmatic."