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Fri Jan 29, 2016, 03:50 AM

It Really Doesn't Matter if Hillary Clinton Is Dishonest: Article from Washington Post

Last edited Fri Jan 29, 2016, 04:36 AM - Edit history (1)

When I read this I wondered if they are serious or if this is some snarky political attack.
The actual article from the Washington Post.
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Calling someone dishonest is one of the most serious political insults in the United States. The country has been obsessed with its politicians' honesty at least since President George Washington's first biographer popularized the tale of him hacking at the trunk of a cherry tree. "I cannot tell a lie," a young Washington supposedly said when confronted about the damage.

Now, with less than a week until the Iowa caucuses and with Bernie Sanders advancing in the polls, Hillary Clinton still hasn't been able to clear away the accusations of dishonesty that have clouded her campaign. At the Democratic presidential town hall on Monday, a Sanders supporter noted that it's a reason Clinton has struggled to attract young voters: "I've heard from quite a few people my age that they think you're dishonest," he said.

Here's the thing, though: There was no cherry tree. Washington's biographer apparently fabricated it. "The great founding myth of American political integrity, chopping down the cherry tree, is, in fact, itself a lie," said Martin Jay, a historian at the University of California at Berkeley and author of a book called "The Virtues of Mendacity."




https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/01/28/it-really-doesnt-matter-if-hillary-clinton-is-dishonest/?hpid=hp_hp-more-top-stories_wb-clinton-753pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory

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Arrow 37 replies Author Time Post
Reply It Really Doesn't Matter if Hillary Clinton Is Dishonest: Article from Washington Post (Original post)
Todays_Illusion Jan 2016 OP
SamKnause Jan 2016 #1
Todays_Illusion Jan 2016 #2
Hortensis Jan 2016 #14
Kalidurga Jan 2016 #3
Todays_Illusion Jan 2016 #7
Kalidurga Jan 2016 #12
senz Jan 2016 #27
Kalidurga Jan 2016 #30
JDPriestly Jan 2016 #15
ucrdem Jan 2016 #4
Todays_Illusion Jan 2016 #9
senz Jan 2016 #26
Uncle Joe Jan 2016 #5
Todays_Illusion Jan 2016 #6
Hortensis Jan 2016 #16
Todays_Illusion Jan 2016 #17
Hortensis Jan 2016 #28
Todays_Illusion Jan 2016 #34
senz Jan 2016 #25
Hortensis Jan 2016 #29
Todays_Illusion Jan 2016 #37
OnyxCollie Jan 2016 #8
Todays_Illusion Jan 2016 #11
Bernblu Jan 2016 #10
Rebkeh Jan 2016 #13
Fumesucker Jan 2016 #19
Todays_Illusion Jan 2016 #20
jfern Jan 2016 #18
Todays_Illusion Jan 2016 #21
jfern Jan 2016 #22
Todays_Illusion Jan 2016 #23
senz Jan 2016 #24
Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #31
Depaysement Jan 2016 #32
winter is coming Jan 2016 #33
Todays_Illusion Jan 2016 #36
ViseGrip Jan 2016 #35

Response to Todays_Illusion (Original post)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 03:57 AM

1. I would say that depends on what the person

is being dishonest about and if they are intentionally being dishonest.

If the dishonesty causes harm to the country or its people I would think

it would matter greatly.

Just my 2 cents.

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Response to SamKnause (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 04:02 AM

2. Yes I agree, and most of us remember the dishonesty from WBush about the Iraq War

as possibly the ultimate dishonest act especially considering all the death and destruction that delivered.

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Response to Todays_Illusion (Reply #2)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 04:42 AM

14. This article is a smear job right before the caucus.

It's a hit piece -- the purpose to get its headline on the page.

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Response to Todays_Illusion (Original post)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 04:03 AM

3. I don't know what that is

It reads like a hit piece. Only on everyone. It's worse on Hillary I think. But, it's also a swipe at Sanders it's kind of saying he doesn't really take to change and adjusting his values for the times or something something. And it's taking a swipe at people in general for being idealists and dreamers, because yes we are dreaming if we expect TPTB to be honest and that goes for politicians too. And something about people being normally selfless is supposed to be bad cuz emotions n chit. We should be going for the cold calculating liars because they evolve depending on what their handlers want or something something.

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #3)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 04:20 AM

7. I agree on the question about what the purpose is

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Response to Todays_Illusion (Reply #7)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 04:28 AM

12. I looks like something someone who just hates humanity would write.

I don't know what the purpose was supposed to be, but it looked like an admission that the author thinks Hillary is dishonest. And something about "Hey kid, jus let me tell you like it is. If you go about your life being a nice person and being honest the world is gonna eat ya alive."

It's not a glowing recommendation of Hillary that is for sure. If it's supposed to be then it fell far short. If it's supposed to be slamming Bernie I am not sure what the slam is, is he that innocent kid that needs to be told to be a bit more careful with the truth?

I am going with I think it was supposed to be telling us we are too idealistic if we insist that we want honesty from politicians. And that we are too altruistic and we have stars in our eyes if we expect change or something.

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #12)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 05:44 AM

27. Precisely. I was thinking it sounded like Frank Luntz

 

who, imo, hates humanity.

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Response to senz (Reply #27)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 06:29 AM

30. Well he is a Republican

I remember when a lot of Republicans weren't that way. But, around 2009 a lot of decent Republicans ran away from the insane wing of the party and now the rabid RW Randians are taking over.

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #3)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 04:47 AM

15. It's the typical cynicism of the press.

Just trying to please and displease everyone at once and in the process the writer feels above it all, somehow superior. Just an egotistical pleasure for the author of the article.

The reasons people feel that Bernie is honest and that Hillary is dishonest are that 1) Bernie held the right and fair opinions about all these issues from the beginning, from the time his positions on the issues are known and has, thus, been consistently correct on those issues in the views of the voters, and 2) Hillary has changed her mind on things like gay marriage and the TPP and her explanations for those changes are flimsy, unbelievably superficial. She does not and at this point it is too late for her to explain what caused her to change her mind on the TPP very well. The Iraq War is the worst example of an issue on which she made a horrible decision, took an obviously wrong stance and then later has tried to walk that bad decision back.

Hey, Sanders has good judgment. Hillary doesn't.

Sanders CAN BE HONEST and DOESN'T HAVE TO CHANGE HIS MIND BECAUSE HIS INITIAL THOUGHTS AND DECISIONS ARE GOOD.

Hillary's real problem, the reason people call her dishonest, is that she makes bad decisions about the issues over and over and then, when she suddenly wakes up and realizes how wrong her initial decisions were, changes and tries to make the right, now more popular decision.

Hillary is worse than dishonest. She has poor judgment. I don't want to say she is unintelligent because I'm sure she had great grades in school, but . . . . . . I will say that Bernie is really, really, really, really smart.

And on top of it, Bernie has the courage to go against the crowd. He has an instinct for what is right, and he follows that instinct and says what he thinks.

I do think that Bernie is just more brilliant than Hillary. He adds that instinct to his intelligence, and we need that in this country.

Bernie is a deliberative thinker. He just really thinks things through and also has that instinct, educated by a moral sense that is unusual, for knowing what is true and right. I'm sure he makes mistakes, lots of them, but not as many as Hillary.

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Response to Todays_Illusion (Original post)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 04:10 AM

4. The right wing spends millions on targeting Hillary with hateful messages:

NYT, July 11: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/12/us/the-best-way-to-vilify-clinton-gop-spends-heavily-to-test-it.html?_r=0

That's a lot of mud over the last quarter century and some if it was bound to stick. Hillary doesn't have Bill's teflon which is to say she's not a born raconteur (aka bullshitter) and the VRWC figured out long ago that that makes her vulnerable on the issue. Just my $0.02.

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #4)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 04:24 AM

9. But why would libertarian Jeff Bezo's Washington Post give Democratic Hillary Clinton a pass

and he appointed as publisher, Fredrick J. Ryan, sometimes called Ronald Reagan's number one fan.

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Response to Todays_Illusion (Reply #9)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 05:40 AM

26. Perhaps corporate democrats are more to his liking.

 

She is, after all, the Wall Street candidate.

Or as some of us would say, a DINO.

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Response to Todays_Illusion (Original post)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 04:11 AM

5. The post pulls out the false "head vs heart" meme, giving up half a loaf from the start isn't using

your head in any sense of the words; negotiation or compromise.

Bernie has been extremely successful in the Congress getting both sides to come together and in having his amendments passed much more so than Hillary.

Bernie knows how to compromise, from a position of strength.

Furthermore this post article presupposes that since all politicians must lie, it undermines any rational or logical way for the American People to use their heads in making deliberations as whom to support.

Thanks for the thread, Todays_Illusion.

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Response to Uncle Joe (Reply #5)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 04:16 AM

6. Thanks for your comment, The article really disturbed me. I wondered if

since the Republicans are such constant fibbers they want to stop it being an issue or something?

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Response to Todays_Illusion (Reply #6)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 04:52 AM

16. How "disturbed" would you have been if the headline was:

"It Doesn't Matter If Bernie Sanders Is Dishonest"

Hmmm? IMO, the only real honesty issue here is lack of it. Smears aimed at Bernie bad. Smears aimed at Hillary good.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #16)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 05:05 AM

17. If it were written in the same tone I would also wonder about the why of it.

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Response to Todays_Illusion (Reply #17)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 05:49 AM

28. No, you wouldn't. You'd know it was a hit job

right before Iowa.

Maybe wonder about the "why" of that? Why would the owner of the Washington Post, libertarian-leaning megabillionaire Jeff Bezos (#4 on Forbes list), prefer a Republican president? From Alternet:

"Like so many tech billionaires, Bezos has been attracted to right-libertarian politics—meaning socially liberal, but in favor of business and privatization. ...

But what has not made news is Bezos’ careful activism on behalf of big business and some of the richest Americans. ... "


His company Amazon was a member of ALEC (!!!) until he was outed and embarrassed into severing the connection with an organization dedicated to corrupting democracy.

But hey, I'm guessing Bezos at least is pleased with all those who help him out. As for what you get in return? Let's just hope it's not a Republican president.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #28)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 01:59 PM

34. Thanks, but I am not fond of other people telling me how or what I think especially when

I have clearly stated otherwise.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #16)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 05:37 AM

25. What's disturbing is the claim that honesty itself doesn't matter.

 

Not everything boils down to persons.

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Response to senz (Reply #25)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 05:52 AM

29. Oh, honesty MATTERS. BUT, not just the honesty of others,

OUR honesty matters too.

How can anyone expect politicians to be honest if the best way to get elected is to feed people the lies they want to hear?

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Response to senz (Reply #25)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 02:11 PM

37. That is so disturbing to me I considered the article a snarky attack but I think the writer is

serious and is a much worse conclusion.

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Response to Todays_Illusion (Original post)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 04:21 AM

8. Please edit your post to four paragraphs for fair use. nt

 

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Response to OnyxCollie (Reply #8)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 04:27 AM

11. Thanks, will do. nt

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Response to Todays_Illusion (Original post)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 04:25 AM

10. Why would anyone believe she is effective?

1. Her vote to go to war in Iraq
2. The mess she left in Libya
3. The great campaign she ran and lost in 2008.
4. Her leadership in flubbing Healthcare in 1993.

What has she ever done effectively except enriching herself?

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Response to Todays_Illusion (Original post)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 04:30 AM

13. Wrong point

It's less about telling the truth and more about morality and moral judgment. Lying is morally wrong and when we accept, allow, encourage or reward it, we've gone astray. When the majority of the country has so little influence on legislation, it no longer functions as a democracy. We need to trust our representative government again and choosing a known liar (to an extreme in this case) is never going to work.

If we are to choose a representative of most of America, that person has to be consistent. Otherwise, there's no trust.

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Response to Rebkeh (Reply #13)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 05:10 AM

19. Hillary is extremely consistent, you can count on her doing what she thinks is best for her

Getting to the Presidency is her goal and as Amy Poehler satirized her on SNL she has been running for it like a Terminator damn near forever.

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Response to Rebkeh (Reply #13)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 05:12 AM

20. I was trying to determine if they are serious or if it is an attack it is very puzzling. nt

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Response to Todays_Illusion (Original post)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 05:07 AM

18. The Washington Post represents the establishment which is close to a total meltdown

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Response to jfern (Reply #18)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 05:13 AM

21. Since the Washington Post is now libertarian owned, is it still old time Republican establishment?nt

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Response to Todays_Illusion (Reply #21)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 05:17 AM

22. Well, I doubt he fired all the workers

And it's not like it matters, right-wing libertarians aren't going to be fans of Bernie's either. Either way, the Washington Post has been insanely anti Bernie this whole primary.

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Response to jfern (Reply #22)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 05:23 AM

23. Yes, libertarians really hate democratic and Democratic and Bezos appointed and old

Reagan man, Fredrick J. Ryan as publisher. To me the Republican party is now 100% libertarian thanks to the efforts and money from the Kochs and friends. And the Democratic are being gobbled up as well by those stealthier libertarians like the the Third Wau and the ones running Democracy Alliance and that is our problem.

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Response to Todays_Illusion (Original post)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 05:33 AM

24. Is this guy claiming that since Washington's biographer lied then

 

honesty in a president is overrated? Something a bit haywire with that logic.

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Response to senz (Reply #24)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 07:25 AM

31. If the OP is to be believed, we owe Richard Nixon an apology.

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Response to Todays_Illusion (Original post)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 07:40 AM

32. The writer misses the point

It isn't that she "reconsiders her positions." Or that she compromises. It's that she lies about her positions, then lies about why she "changed her mind."

Who cares about whether GW cut down the cherry tree. People want a President they can trust. That's HRC's biggest problem.


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Response to Depaysement (Reply #32)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 08:49 AM

33. +1. Honesty and trust are related issues.

Why anyone would trust an opportunistic liar is a mystery to me.

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Response to Depaysement (Reply #32)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 02:02 PM

36. I agree with you, I am not opposed to people changing their minds on issues, I worry if they deny

the original idea and statement existed. I have never been a Hillary Clinton supporter, I voted for Barack Obama in 2008 and don't really pay that much attention to Hillary I have always considered her to be too conservative.

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Response to Todays_Illusion (Original post)

Fri Jan 29, 2016, 02:02 PM

35. Oh it matters. That is why she is not even a second choice for me.

 

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