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Uncle Joe

(58,255 posts)
Sat Jan 30, 2016, 02:22 AM Jan 2016

Ezra Klein and Paul Krugman both face-planted in their Bernie Sanders takedowns



The flagrant dishonesty of some of these attacks briefly put pro-Clinton pundits on their back feet. But after Sanders released a brief campaign sketch of his single-payer plan, they regrouped and began an assault against both it and his financial reform plan. Their arguments were at best blinkered and at worst seriously misleading, and missed the political forest for the policy weeds.

Let's roll the tape. Ezra Klein, founder of Vox and well-known for his wonk brand, was first out of the gate with a long piece brutally savaging Sanders' single-payer plan as an unrealistic, "irresponsible," "puppies and rainbows" proposal. New York Times columnist Paul Krugman approvingly cited this argument, piling on that its funding relied on a "magic asterisk" — a reference to his takedowns of various conservative budgets which slash taxes to the bone while not explaining how they will avoid increasing the budget deficit — concluding that single-payer was a "distraction from the real issues."

Yet Klein's takedown of single-payer committed some rather shocking errors of fact. He argues that Sanders plan is misleading about the biggest source of single-payer savings, which, he seemed to imply, is the denial of coverage to patients. But as Seth Ackerman carefully explains in extant universal systems most of the savings comes from governments leaning on providers, and Klein (among several other errors) is squirrelly indeed on this crucial point:

By this (admittedly partial) reckoning, more than 87 percent of the taxpayer savings generated by France’s "Saying No Apparatus" (as it were) came out of the pockets of Abbott’s shareholders. Only 13 percent came out of the patient's. Yet Klein’s article systematically obscures the distinction between the two, while making it seem that Sanders’s plan, out of some kind of populist irresponsibility, chose to forego the main sources of real-world single-payer cost containment. In fact, the reverse is true: It was Klein who was doing that.


(snip)

It's worth browsing Clinton's health care page to see how she proposes to cover the roughly 30 million people who are still uninsured. Just kidding. There's almost nothing.

So after all that, it's a bit rich to see Krugman sigh theatrically about the vile abuse he's getting from Sanders supporters, and prop himself up, along with Klein and Jonathans Cohn and Chait, as the archetypal wonk who always makes decisions strictly on the policy merits. It reads very much like any other political partisan attempting to mask his preference as the neutral, correct choice. He did the same routine in 2008, when he also supported Clinton, and it was obnoxious then too.

(snip)

http://theweek.com/articles/601908/ezra-klein-paul-krugman-both-faceplanted-bernie-sanders-takedowns

36 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Ezra Klein and Paul Krugman both face-planted in their Bernie Sanders takedowns (Original Post) Uncle Joe Jan 2016 OP
Clinton has Krugman, Sanders has DJ13 Jan 2016 #1
Wow. You could, if you wished, make an OP of this. senz Jan 2016 #7
The actual pdf of the study with that list was posted a couple of days back on here DJ13 Jan 2016 #8
WUV You! Rockyj Jan 2016 #10
Sanders also has common sense - and a sense of justice. Betty Karlson Jan 2016 #21
Yup kenfrequed Jan 2016 #2
And as usual, we do all the thinking and analyzing for the GOP ahead of the general. ancianita Jan 2016 #3
What's to understand? We are ALREADY paying for single payer--twice per capita what other developed eridani Jan 2016 #9
I hear you. ancianita Jan 2016 #18
I have explained this to two family members so far that at least understand this now. Kalidurga Jan 2016 #26
Klein, Chait, ugh, and a slew of people back when DK was in its infancy, used to be posters on sabrina 1 Jan 2016 #4
It is very startling to see overt statements about Bernie Sanders from members of Congress, Samantha Jan 2016 #5
And of course the hue and cries of "under the bus!" Scootaloo Jan 2016 #6
No group on DU has been as 'cultish' as Sanders supporters. Witness my locked OP the other day. KittyWampus Jan 2016 #19
Krugman's not "under a bus." He's just wrong about something. Scootaloo Jan 2016 #23
This Bernie supporter thing is starting to smell really, really bad. merrily Jan 2016 #11
This message was self-deleted by its author CobaltBlue Jan 2016 #12
One more time .. 99th_Monkey Jan 2016 #13
oh, hell yeah. nt restorefreedom Jan 2016 #17
Um, no. Even the working class will have their taxes raised under Sanders. KittyWampus Jan 2016 #20
While premiums/copays/deductibles disappear Z_California Jan 2016 #25
Um, no. We'll get decent healthcare...such a bargain. libdem4life Jan 2016 #31
my taxes will go up by $80/year. my healthcare costs will go down by $15,000/year Doctor_J Jan 2016 #35
THAT Is Waht I'm Talkin About!!!!! CorporatistNation Jan 2016 #30
Some years back I attended a showing SheilaT Jan 2016 #14
Krugman face planted? Tommy2Tone Jan 2016 #15
What a negative and misleading slant "most savings come from governments leaning on providers... Skwmom Jan 2016 #16
Sorry but the math on Sanders' proposals don't add up mythology Jan 2016 #22
Well, the math on our current system really doesn't add up... ljm2002 Jan 2016 #24
Thank you. This "math doesn't add up" shit is about to make me blow an Nay Jan 2016 #32
Assertions without evidence are such fun. Kalidurga Jan 2016 #27
Then correct his math. Let's hear it. (n/t) SMC22307 Jan 2016 #28
You must have seen this. I'll bet they think differently! ypsfonos Jan 2016 #29
Must be our Resident Economic PhD. libdem4life Jan 2016 #33
How much money has Krugman been paid gyroscope Jan 2016 #34
He has a "Very Serious" bank account DJ13 Jan 2016 #36

DJ13

(23,671 posts)
1. Clinton has Krugman, Sanders has
Sat Jan 30, 2016, 02:40 AM
Jan 2016

Randy Albelda, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts, Boston
Lluis Rodriguez Algans, CNT Trade Union
Peter Arno, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst and Lehman College, City University of New York
Michael Ash, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
M.V. Lee Badget, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
Brook K. Baker, J.D., Northeastern University School of Law
Nesecan Balkan, Ph.D., Hamilton College
Avraham Baranes, Ph.D., Rollins College
David Barkin, Ph.D., Universidad Autonoma Metropolitana-Xochimilco
Deepankar Basu, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
Lourdes Benería, Ph.D., Cornell University
Peter H. Bent, University of Massachusetts-Amherst and University of Oxford
Cyrus Bina, Ph.D., University of Minnesota
Ron Blackwell, Chief Economist, AFL-CIO (Retired)
Marc Blecher, Ph.D., Oberlin College
Eileen Boris, Ph.D., University of California-Santa Barbara
Howard Botwinick, Ph.D., State University of New York-Cortland
Roger Even Bove, Ph.D., West Chester University
James K. Boyce, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
Michael Brün, Ph.D., Illinois State University
Robert Buchele, Ph.D., Smith College
Antonio Callari, Ph.D., Franklin and Marshall College
Al Campbell, Ph.D., University of Utah
Jim Campen, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts, Boston
Michael Carter, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts, Lowell
Scott Carter, Ph.D., The University of Tulsa
Shouvik Chakraborty, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
John Chasse, Ph.D., State University of New York, Brockport
Ying Chen, University of Massachusetts-Amherst
Robert Chernomas, Ph.D., University of Manitoba
Kimberly Christensen, Ph.D., Sarah Lawrence College
Alan B. Ciblis, Ph.D., Universidad Nacional de General Sarmiento
Peter Cole, Ph.D., Western Illinois University
Bruce E. Collier, Ph.D., Association for Social Economics
James Crotty, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
Stephen Cullenberg, Ph.D., University of California, Riverside
Jane D’Arista, Political Economy Research Institute
Flavia Dantas, Ph.D., SUNY - Cortland
Paul Davidson, Ph.D., University of Tennessee
Erik Dean, Ph.D., Portland Community College
Carmen Diana Deere, Ph.D., University of Florida
George DeMartino, Ph.D., University of Denver
Gregory DeFreitas, Ph.D., Hofstra University
Alan Derickson, Ph.D., Pennsylvania State University
James G. Devine, Ph.D., Loyola Marymount University
G. William Domhoff, Ph.D., University of California, Santa Cruz
Peter Dreier, Ph.D., Occidental College
Thomas L. Dublin, Ph.D., State University of New York, Binghampton
Gary Dymski, Ph.D., Leeds University Business School
Peter Dorman, Ph.D., Evergreen State College
Veronika V. Eberharter, Ph.D., University of Innsbruck
Barry Eldin, Ph.D., McGill University
Gerald Epstein, Ph.D, University of Massachusetts-Amherst
Rudy Fichtenbaum, Ph.D., Wright State University
Deborah M. Figart, Ph.D., Stockton University
Alfredo Saad Filho, Ph.D., University of London
Andrew M. Fischer, Ph.D., Institute of Social Studies of Erasmus University Rotterdam
Sean Flaherty, Ph.D., Franklin & Marshall College
Nancy Folbre, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
Gerald Friedman, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
Kevin Furey, , Chemeketa Community College
James K. Galbraith, Ph.D., University of Texas-Austin
John Luke Gallup, Ph.D., Portland State University
Ina Ganguli, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
Jorge Garcia-Arias, Ph.D., University of Leon
Heidi Garrett-Peltier, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
Barbara Garson
Armaan Gezici, Ph.D., Keene State College
G. Reza Ghorashi, Ph.D., Stockton University
Helen Lachs Ginsburg, Ph.D., Brooklyn College, City University of New York
Jonathan P. Goldstein, Ph.D., Bowdoin College
April Gordon, Winthrop University
Ilene Grabel, Ph.D., University of Denver
Jerry Gray, Ph.D., Willamette University
Josh Greenstein, Ph.D., Hobart and William Smith Colleges
Daphne Greenwood, Ph.D., University of Colorado-Colorado Springs
Winston Griffith, Ph.D., Howard University
Christopher Gunn, Ph.D, Hobart and William Smith Colleges
Robert Guttman, Ph.D., Hofstra University
Robin Hahnel, Ph.D., American University, Portland State University
Eric Hake, Ph.D., Catawba College
Martin Hart-Landsberg, Ph.D., Lewis and Clark College
James Heintz, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
Lisa Henderson, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
John F. Henry, Ph.D., University of Missouri-Kansas City
Arturo Hermann, Italian National Institute of Statistics
Joan Hoffman, Ph.D., John Jay College of Criminal Justice
Candace Howes, Ph.D., Connecticut College
Michael Hudson, Ph.D., University of Missouri, Kansas City
Dorene Isenberg, Ph.D., University of Redlands
Russell Janis, Ph.D, J.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
Tae-Hee Jo, Ph.D., State University of New York, Buffalo State
Laurie Johnson, Ph.D., New York University
Fadhel Kaboub, Ph.D., Denison University
Rebecca E. Karl, Ph.D., History Department, New York University
Mousa H. Kassis, Youngstown State University
Farida C. Khan, Ph.D., University of Wisconsin-Parkside
Mary C. King, Ph.D., Portland State University
Tim Koechlin, Ph.D., Vassar College
Harry Konstantinidis, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts Boston
David Laibman, Ph.D., Brooklyn College and Graduate School, City University of New York
Thomas Lambert, Ph.D., Northern Kentucky University
Margaret Levenstein, Ph.D., University of Michigan
Oren M. Levin-Waldman, Ph.D., Metropolitan College of New York
Ariana R. Levinson, Ph.D., University of Louisville
Victor D. Lippit, Ph.D., University of California, Riverside
Paul Lockard, Ph.D., Black Hawk College
Daniel MacDonald, Ph.D., California State University San Bernadino
Allan MacNeill, Ph.D., Webster University
Mark Maier, Ph.D., Glendale Community College
Arthur MacEwan, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts Boston
Ann Markusen, Ph.D., University of Minnesota
J.W. Mason, Ph.D., John Jay College, City University of New York; Roosevelt Institute
Patrick Mason, Ph.D., Florida State University
Peter Hans Matthews, Ph.D., Middlebury College
Peter B. Mayer, Ph.D., University of Louisville
Scott McConnell, Ph.D., Eastern Oregon University
Elaine McCrate, Ph.D., University of Vermont
Terrence McDonough, Ph.D., National University of Ireland Galway
Michael Meeropol, Ph.D., Western New England University
Martin Melkonian, Hofstra University
Dennis Merrill, Ph.D., University of Missouri-Kansas City
Thomas Michl, Ph.D., Colgate University
Marcelo Milan, Ph.D., Federal University of Rio Grade do Sul
William Milberg, Ph.D., New School for Social Research
John Miller, Ph.D., Wheaton College
Paul Morse, University of Massachusetts Lowell
Fred Moseley, Ph.D., Mount Holyoke College
Philip I. Moss, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts Lowell
Tracy Mott, Ph.D., University of Denver
Michael J. Murray, Ph.D., Bemidji State University
Ellen Mutari, Ph.D., Stockton University
Léonce Ndikumana, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
Don Negri, Ph.D., Willamette University
Julie A. Nelson, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Boston
Reynold F. Nesiba, Ph.D., Augustana College, Sioux Falls
Eric Nilsson, Ph.D., California State University, San Bernadino
Michael Nuwer, Ph.D., State University of New York, Potsdam
Erik Olsen, Ph.D., University of Missouri Kansas City
Spencer J. Pack, Ph.D., Connecticut College
Aaron Pacitti, Ph.D., Siena College
Zhaochang Peng, Ph.D., Rollins College
Kenneth R. Peres, Ph.D., retired, Communications Workers of America
Joseph Persky, Ph.D., University of Illinois at Chicago
Karen Pfeifer, Ph.D., Smith College
Xuan Pham, Ph.D., Rockhurst University
Bruce Pietrykowski, Ph.D., University of Michigan-Dearborn
Frances Fox Piven, Ph.D., Graduate Center, City University of New York
Robert Pollin, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
Mary Louise Pratt, Ph.D., New York University
Paddy Quick, Ph.D., St. Francis College
Devin T. Rafferty, Ph.D., St. Peter’s University
Laura Reed, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Robert Reich, University of California Berkeley
Felipe Rezende, Ph.D., Hobart and William Smith Colleges
Carl Riskin, Ph.D., Queens College, City University of New York
Judith Robinson, Ph.D., Castleton State College
Sergio Romero, PhD, Department of Sociology, Boise State University
Andrew Ross, Ph.D., New York University
Robert J.S. Ross, Ph.D., Clark University
Mario Seccareccia, Ph.D., University of Ottawa
Malcolm Sawyer, Ph.D., University of Leeds
Matías Scaglione, Ph.D., University of Wisconsin-Madison
Helen Scharber, Ph.D., Hampshire College
Ted P. Schmidt, Ph.D., State University of New York, Buffalo State
Geoff Schneider, Ph.D., Bucknell University
Juliet B. Schor, Ph.D., Boston College
Elliot Sclar, Ph.D., Columbia University
Carol Scotton, Ph.D., Knox College
Stephanie Seguino, Ph.D., University of Vermont
Alla Semenova, Ph.D., State University of New York - Potsdam
Anwar Shaikh, Ph.D., New School for Social Research
Zoe Sherman, Ph.D., Merrimack College
Nathan Sivers-Boyce, Ph.D., Willamette University
Bryan Snyder, Bentley University
Peter Spiegler, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
Janet Spitz, Ph.D., The College of Saint Rose
Howard Stein, Ph.D., University of Michigan
Mary Huff Stevenson, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts Boston
Frank Thompson, Ph.D., University of Michigan
Chris Tilly, Ph.D., University of California, Los Angeles
Donald Tomaskovic-Devey, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
E. Ahmet Tonak, Ph.D., Istanbul Bilgi University, Turkey
Mayo C. Toruño, Ph.D., California State University, San Bernadino
Eric Tymoigne, Ph.D., Lewis & Clark College
Hendrik Van den Berg, Ph.D., University of Nebraska and Mount Holyoke College
William Van Lear, Ph.D., Belmont Abbey College
Irene van Staveren, Ph.D., Erasmus University Rotterdam
Roberto Veneziani, Ph.D., Queen Mary University of London
Eric Verhoogen, Ph.D., Columbia University
Matías Vernengo, Ph.D., Bucknell University
Stephen Viederman, Consultant
William T. Waller, Ph.D., Hobart and William Smith Colleges
John P. Watkins, Ph.D., Westminster College
John Weeks, Ph.D., University of London
Thomas Weisskopf, Ph.D., University of Michigan
Cathy Whiting, Ph.D., Willamette University
Jeannette Wicks-Lim, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
John Willoughby, Ph.D., American University
Tamar Diana Wilson, Ph.D., University of Missouri, St. Louis
Jon D. Wisman, Ph.D., American University
Judith Wittner, Ph.D., Loyola University
Michael Wolff, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
Martin Wolfson, Ph.D., University of Notre Dame
L. Randy Wray, Ph.D., Bard College and University of Missouri-Kansas City
Zhun Xu, Ph.D., Howard University
Ben Young, Ph.D., University of Missouri at Kansas City
June Zaccone, Ph.D., Hofstra University
David Zalewski, Ph.D., Providence College
Roland Zullo, Ph.D., University of Michigan

http://www.budget.senate.gov/democratic/public/index.cfm/2015/7/top-economists-are-backing-sen-bernie-sanders-on-establishing-a-15-an-hour-minimum-wage


Hmmm, tough call.........

 

senz

(11,945 posts)
7. Wow. You could, if you wished, make an OP of this.
Sat Jan 30, 2016, 03:22 AM
Jan 2016

It made me so happy to read it. I'll bet it makes Bernie happy, too. Thank you DJ13!

kenfrequed

(7,865 posts)
2. Yup
Sat Jan 30, 2016, 02:48 AM
Jan 2016

Much better list on Sanders side. Sure, they aren't pundits or media personalities but they are much more serious about the economy.

ancianita

(35,895 posts)
3. And as usual, we do all the thinking and analyzing for the GOP ahead of the general.
Sat Jan 30, 2016, 02:56 AM
Jan 2016

They're talking single payer as if I can't even understand Bernie's simple, straightforward explanation on how it will be paid for. But the way Bernie himself explained it is practical, doable, and has corporate health insurers quaking with fear.

It bugs me that this strategy gets played out right in front of Republicans who will use it to scare the crap out of their base with "new" talk about how they'll save everyone from "Bernie's convoluted proposal to raise taxes, save costs, blah blah and who even understands all that accounting stuff!" then they'll promise to rescind ACA and end this 'disengenuous' mess once and for all. That will be their domestic agenda -- saving their everyday political party people from "us."

eridani

(51,907 posts)
9. What's to understand? We are ALREADY paying for single payer--twice per capita what other developed
Sat Jan 30, 2016, 03:33 AM
Jan 2016

countries pay. We just aren't getting it. Anyone who would rather pay a $900/month "premium" than a $200/month "tax" shouldn't be running around outside without adult supervision.

Kalidurga

(14,177 posts)
26. I have explained this to two family members so far that at least understand this now.
Sat Jan 30, 2016, 03:53 PM
Jan 2016

My SO he is sort of conservative, but mostly he is just stuck in his ways. He says he would rather pay the higher tax than almost 6,000 a year in premiums.

My youngest daughter was leaning Hillary now she is leaning Bernie, says she would rather pay the higher tax as well.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
4. Klein, Chait, ugh, and a slew of people back when DK was in its infancy, used to be posters on
Sat Jan 30, 2016, 03:03 AM
Jan 2016

that forum. We noticed that certain 'ordinary people' were getting a lot of 'training' on the blog, Mostly they were not very interesting, but got the focus and attention of the owners and were 'promoted' by a circle of other supposed Dem forums at the time.

Later it was clear that Third Way Dems were copying the Republican 'model' of 'training' a bunch of young, 'conservative future pundits who would 'shape' the thinking of Dems on various issues.

I remember Klein as a boring, not very interesting poster as compared to some excellent writers who were worth reading. To put it kindly, most of this 'group' who are now out there claiming to be experts, gettiing TV spots etc, claiming to speak for Liberals, were not among those who might have attracted Dems to the site.

Klein never spoke for most of the liberals I know.

Seeing Krugman quote Chait and Klein, is disappointing. However it does explain a lot about Krugman I've often wondered about. I never made the connection between him and the 'trained Third Way' pundits before. I'm glad he has revealed this.

Great article Uncle Joe. The whole attack on Sanders' HC proposals, starting with Chelsea Clinton, massively backfired.

The author perfectly describes this 'class' of partisan 'pundits' perfectly here:

along with Klein and Jonathans Cohn and Chait, as the archetypal wonk who always makes decisions strictly on the policy merits. It reads very much like any other political partisan attempting to mask his preference as the neutral, correct choice


They are supposed to SOUND very 'serious' and neutral, but we all knew back then they were nothing of the kind.

The Third Way strikes again and once again proves themselves to be thoroughly out of touch with the Americna people AND in their arrogance, convinced that we are so stupid we cannot assess both Hillary's and Bernie's HC proposals for ourselves.

So another total backfire for the Third Way, which it appears, Krugman is a member of.

Samantha

(9,314 posts)
5. It is very startling to see overt statements about Bernie Sanders from members of Congress,
Sat Jan 30, 2016, 03:13 AM
Jan 2016

the media and some who simply support Hillary totally misrepresent either through omission of important details or blatantly prevaricating about Sanders, his platform or some minor incident. Nancy Pelosi, of all people....

I will never look at some of these people the same way ever again, regardless of who wins the nomination.

Sam

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
6. And of course the hue and cries of "under the bus!"
Sat Jan 30, 2016, 03:19 AM
Jan 2016

I find it strange that people so ready to accuse others of cultish behavior so often fall preyt to argument from authority. As if it never enters their head that, oh, their icons could be wrong.

Krugman has a pretty solid ground as a Keynsian economist. despite some claims this does not make him even remotely "left," except in the horrifyingly skewed perspective one gets within american economics, where extremist neoliberlaism is seen as the center point.

However while he's often right, he also has some places where he is very consistently wrong. Politically, the man is a coward. The prospect of substantial change in any region of our political life seems to terrify him. One only needs to look at his meltdown op-eds in 2008 to get a handle on this. it could be a standard economist thing - economics basically teaches that all change is bad and horrible, unless measured in micro-nudges.

But more likely it's a feature of Krugman's own professional gimmick. Y'see, Krugman's "act" is to be the lone Keynesian voice in a neoliberal wilderness. it served him well in the Bush years, and as it turns out, didn't turn out to bad under obama (Krugman's fever-dreams in 2008 aside.) But under a truly liberal administration, progressive economics would find more favor, and return to the mainstream.. .and krugman could no longer be that "lone voice."

Capitalist to the end, it's competition that he fears.

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
19. No group on DU has been as 'cultish' as Sanders supporters. Witness my locked OP the other day.
Sat Jan 30, 2016, 12:12 PM
Jan 2016

And it's hilarious that Krugman is now under the bus and you can't see the irony of your own statements.

Since Sanders supporters get off on going back through other DU'ers past posts and point fingers making the accusation of hypocrisy someone should do the same with Krugman's name.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
23. Krugman's not "under a bus." He's just wrong about something.
Sat Jan 30, 2016, 12:48 PM
Jan 2016

And it happens to be something he has been wrong about in the past. So there's a pattern of him being wrong on that subject. I'm sorry that you don't seem able to understand that it's possible to point out someone is wrong without the melodrama bullshit of "throwing under the bus."

I don't know your "locked OP from the other day." If it's locked, then you probably posted it in the wrong forum.

Response to Uncle Joe (Original post)

Z_California

(650 posts)
25. While premiums/copays/deductibles disappear
Sat Jan 30, 2016, 03:46 PM
Jan 2016

right? But that wouldn't make a political point would it.

Intellectual dishonesty is dishonesty.

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
35. my taxes will go up by $80/year. my healthcare costs will go down by $15,000/year
Sat Jan 30, 2016, 06:14 PM
Jan 2016

I would think even the Clinton cult could work that out. But they don't want to, and like their candidate favor insurance and PHARMA executives over regular working people.

 

SheilaT

(23,156 posts)
14. Some years back I attended a showing
Sat Jan 30, 2016, 04:52 AM
Jan 2016

of Michael Moore's Sicko, accompanied by a discussion afterwards. There was an attempt to impose a consensus that a universal health care was undoable, mainly because it would be too expensive. I kept on challenging that, to the point where I was basically told to shut up, but not before I pointed out that all the claims of universal health care being too expensive pretended that there was no cost to the current system.

It was a bit shocking and frustrating to be shut down as I was, but it's almost the perfect example of the bullshit claims that universal health care isn't feasible: that claim ignores the cost of the current system, which is why why spend at least as twice as much as other first world countries for a health care system that delivers a much crappier outcome.

Skwmom

(12,685 posts)
16. What a negative and misleading slant "most savings come from governments leaning on providers...
Sat Jan 30, 2016, 05:54 AM
Jan 2016

Fun and games.......

I wonder how much has been added to the debt because our government refused to let medicare negotiate drug prices.

I wonder which candidate the author supports or who pays his salary ...

It also beats the drum of higher taxes without explaining the amount of the tax and the savings.






 

mythology

(9,527 posts)
22. Sorry but the math on Sanders' proposals don't add up
Sat Jan 30, 2016, 12:26 PM
Jan 2016

That's not getting lost in the policy weeds, it's understanding that it matters if a proposal can work.

ljm2002

(10,751 posts)
24. Well, the math on our current system really doesn't add up...
Sat Jan 30, 2016, 02:24 PM
Jan 2016

...that's why so many don't have any insurance at all, and so many more even with insurance cannot use it or go broke doing so -- all while we pay twice what other countries pay who do have universal health CARE not just INSURANCE (which we have not yet managed).

Nay

(12,051 posts)
32. Thank you. This "math doesn't add up" shit is about to make me blow an
Sat Jan 30, 2016, 04:28 PM
Jan 2016

artery. We're paying TWICE the 1st-world-country rate for a shittier health care system -- THAT'S the goddamn math that doesn't add up. FFS.

 

ypsfonos

(144 posts)
29. You must have seen this. I'll bet they think differently!
Sat Jan 30, 2016, 04:20 PM
Jan 2016

Randy Albelda, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts, Boston
Lluis Rodriguez Algans, CNT Trade Union
Peter Arno, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst and Lehman College, City University of New York
Michael Ash, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
M.V. Lee Badget, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
Brook K. Baker, J.D., Northeastern University School of Law
Nesecan Balkan, Ph.D., Hamilton College
Avraham Baranes, Ph.D., Rollins College
David Barkin, Ph.D., Universidad Autonoma Metropolitana-Xochimilco
Deepankar Basu, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
Lourdes Benería, Ph.D., Cornell University
Peter H. Bent, University of Massachusetts-Amherst and University of Oxford
Cyrus Bina, Ph.D., University of Minnesota
Ron Blackwell, Chief Economist, AFL-CIO (Retired)
Marc Blecher, Ph.D., Oberlin College
Eileen Boris, Ph.D., University of California-Santa Barbara
Howard Botwinick, Ph.D., State University of New York-Cortland
Roger Even Bove, Ph.D., West Chester University
James K. Boyce, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
Michael Brün, Ph.D., Illinois State University
Robert Buchele, Ph.D., Smith College
Antonio Callari, Ph.D., Franklin and Marshall College
Al Campbell, Ph.D., University of Utah
Jim Campen, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts, Boston
Michael Carter, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts, Lowell
Scott Carter, Ph.D., The University of Tulsa
Shouvik Chakraborty, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
John Chasse, Ph.D., State University of New York, Brockport
Ying Chen, University of Massachusetts-Amherst
Robert Chernomas, Ph.D., University of Manitoba
Kimberly Christensen, Ph.D., Sarah Lawrence College
Alan B. Ciblis, Ph.D., Universidad Nacional de General Sarmiento
Peter Cole, Ph.D., Western Illinois University
Bruce E. Collier, Ph.D., Association for Social Economics
James Crotty, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
Stephen Cullenberg, Ph.D., University of California, Riverside
Jane D’Arista, Political Economy Research Institute
Flavia Dantas, Ph.D., SUNY - Cortland
Paul Davidson, Ph.D., University of Tennessee
Erik Dean, Ph.D., Portland Community College
Carmen Diana Deere, Ph.D., University of Florida
George DeMartino, Ph.D., University of Denver
Gregory DeFreitas, Ph.D., Hofstra University
Alan Derickson, Ph.D., Pennsylvania State University
James G. Devine, Ph.D., Loyola Marymount University
G. William Domhoff, Ph.D., University of California, Santa Cruz
Peter Dreier, Ph.D., Occidental College
Thomas L. Dublin, Ph.D., State University of New York, Binghampton
Gary Dymski, Ph.D., Leeds University Business School
Peter Dorman, Ph.D., Evergreen State College
Veronika V. Eberharter, Ph.D., University of Innsbruck
Barry Eldin, Ph.D., McGill University
Gerald Epstein, Ph.D, University of Massachusetts-Amherst
Rudy Fichtenbaum, Ph.D., Wright State University
Deborah M. Figart, Ph.D., Stockton University
Alfredo Saad Filho, Ph.D., University of London
Andrew M. Fischer, Ph.D., Institute of Social Studies of Erasmus University Rotterdam
Sean Flaherty, Ph.D., Franklin & Marshall College
Nancy Folbre, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
Gerald Friedman, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
Kevin Furey, , Chemeketa Community College
James K. Galbraith, Ph.D., University of Texas-Austin
John Luke Gallup, Ph.D., Portland State University
Ina Ganguli, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
Jorge Garcia-Arias, Ph.D., University of Leon
Heidi Garrett-Peltier, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
Barbara Garson
Armaan Gezici, Ph.D., Keene State College
G. Reza Ghorashi, Ph.D., Stockton University
Helen Lachs Ginsburg, Ph.D., Brooklyn College, City University of New York
Jonathan P. Goldstein, Ph.D., Bowdoin College
April Gordon, Winthrop University
Ilene Grabel, Ph.D., University of Denver
Jerry Gray, Ph.D., Willamette University
Josh Greenstein, Ph.D., Hobart and William Smith Colleges
Daphne Greenwood, Ph.D., University of Colorado-Colorado Springs
Winston Griffith, Ph.D., Howard University
Christopher Gunn, Ph.D, Hobart and William Smith Colleges
Robert Guttman, Ph.D., Hofstra University
Robin Hahnel, Ph.D., American University, Portland State University
Eric Hake, Ph.D., Catawba College
Martin Hart-Landsberg, Ph.D., Lewis and Clark College
James Heintz, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
Lisa Henderson, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
John F. Henry, Ph.D., University of Missouri-Kansas City
Arturo Hermann, Italian National Institute of Statistics
Joan Hoffman, Ph.D., John Jay College of Criminal Justice
Candace Howes, Ph.D., Connecticut College
Michael Hudson, Ph.D., University of Missouri, Kansas City
Dorene Isenberg, Ph.D., University of Redlands
Russell Janis, Ph.D, J.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
Tae-Hee Jo, Ph.D., State University of New York, Buffalo State
Laurie Johnson, Ph.D., New York University
Fadhel Kaboub, Ph.D., Denison University
Rebecca E. Karl, Ph.D., History Department, New York University
Mousa H. Kassis, Youngstown State University
Farida C. Khan, Ph.D., University of Wisconsin-Parkside
Mary C. King, Ph.D., Portland State University
Tim Koechlin, Ph.D., Vassar College
Harry Konstantinidis, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts Boston
David Laibman, Ph.D., Brooklyn College and Graduate School, City University of New York
Thomas Lambert, Ph.D., Northern Kentucky University
Margaret Levenstein, Ph.D., University of Michigan
Oren M. Levin-Waldman, Ph.D., Metropolitan College of New York
Ariana R. Levinson, Ph.D., University of Louisville
Victor D. Lippit, Ph.D., University of California, Riverside
Paul Lockard, Ph.D., Black Hawk College
Daniel MacDonald, Ph.D., California State University San Bernadino
Allan MacNeill, Ph.D., Webster University
Mark Maier, Ph.D., Glendale Community College
Arthur MacEwan, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts Boston
Ann Markusen, Ph.D., University of Minnesota
J.W. Mason, Ph.D., John Jay College, City University of New York; Roosevelt Institute
Patrick Mason, Ph.D., Florida State University
Peter Hans Matthews, Ph.D., Middlebury College
Peter B. Mayer, Ph.D., University of Louisville
Scott McConnell, Ph.D., Eastern Oregon University
Elaine McCrate, Ph.D., University of Vermont
Terrence McDonough, Ph.D., National University of Ireland Galway
Michael Meeropol, Ph.D., Western New England University
Martin Melkonian, Hofstra University
Dennis Merrill, Ph.D., University of Missouri-Kansas City
Thomas Michl, Ph.D., Colgate University
Marcelo Milan, Ph.D., Federal University of Rio Grade do Sul
William Milberg, Ph.D., New School for Social Research
John Miller, Ph.D., Wheaton College
Paul Morse, University of Massachusetts Lowell
Fred Moseley, Ph.D., Mount Holyoke College
Philip I. Moss, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts Lowell
Tracy Mott, Ph.D., University of Denver
Michael J. Murray, Ph.D., Bemidji State University
Ellen Mutari, Ph.D., Stockton University
Léonce Ndikumana, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
Don Negri, Ph.D., Willamette University
Julie A. Nelson, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Boston
Reynold F. Nesiba, Ph.D., Augustana College, Sioux Falls
Eric Nilsson, Ph.D., California State University, San Bernadino
Michael Nuwer, Ph.D., State University of New York, Potsdam
Erik Olsen, Ph.D., University of Missouri Kansas City
Spencer J. Pack, Ph.D., Connecticut College
Aaron Pacitti, Ph.D., Siena College
Zhaochang Peng, Ph.D., Rollins College
Kenneth R. Peres, Ph.D., retired, Communications Workers of America
Joseph Persky, Ph.D., University of Illinois at Chicago
Karen Pfeifer, Ph.D., Smith College
Xuan Pham, Ph.D., Rockhurst University
Bruce Pietrykowski, Ph.D., University of Michigan-Dearborn
Frances Fox Piven, Ph.D., Graduate Center, City University of New York
Robert Pollin, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
Mary Louise Pratt, Ph.D., New York University
Paddy Quick, Ph.D., St. Francis College
Devin T. Rafferty, Ph.D., St. Peter’s University
Laura Reed, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Robert Reich, University of California Berkeley
Felipe Rezende, Ph.D., Hobart and William Smith Colleges
Carl Riskin, Ph.D., Queens College, City University of New York
Judith Robinson, Ph.D., Castleton State College
Sergio Romero, PhD, Department of Sociology, Boise State University
Andrew Ross, Ph.D., New York University
Robert J.S. Ross, Ph.D., Clark University
Mario Seccareccia, Ph.D., University of Ottawa
Malcolm Sawyer, Ph.D., University of Leeds
Matías Scaglione, Ph.D., University of Wisconsin-Madison
Helen Scharber, Ph.D., Hampshire College
Ted P. Schmidt, Ph.D., State University of New York, Buffalo State
Geoff Schneider, Ph.D., Bucknell University
Juliet B. Schor, Ph.D., Boston College
Elliot Sclar, Ph.D., Columbia University
Carol Scotton, Ph.D., Knox College
Stephanie Seguino, Ph.D., University of Vermont
Alla Semenova, Ph.D., State University of New York - Potsdam
Anwar Shaikh, Ph.D., New School for Social Research
Zoe Sherman, Ph.D., Merrimack College
Nathan Sivers-Boyce, Ph.D., Willamette University
Bryan Snyder, Bentley University
Peter Spiegler, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
Janet Spitz, Ph.D., The College of Saint Rose
Howard Stein, Ph.D., University of Michigan
Mary Huff Stevenson, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts Boston
Frank Thompson, Ph.D., University of Michigan
Chris Tilly, Ph.D., University of California, Los Angeles
Donald Tomaskovic-Devey, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
E. Ahmet Tonak, Ph.D., Istanbul Bilgi University, Turkey
Mayo C. Toruño, Ph.D., California State University, San Bernadino
Eric Tymoigne, Ph.D., Lewis & Clark College
Hendrik Van den Berg, Ph.D., University of Nebraska and Mount Holyoke College
William Van Lear, Ph.D., Belmont Abbey College
Irene van Staveren, Ph.D., Erasmus University Rotterdam
Roberto Veneziani, Ph.D., Queen Mary University of London
Eric Verhoogen, Ph.D., Columbia University
Matías Vernengo, Ph.D., Bucknell University
Stephen Viederman, Consultant
William T. Waller, Ph.D., Hobart and William Smith Colleges
John P. Watkins, Ph.D., Westminster College
John Weeks, Ph.D., University of London
Thomas Weisskopf, Ph.D., University of Michigan
Cathy Whiting, Ph.D., Willamette University
Jeannette Wicks-Lim, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
John Willoughby, Ph.D., American University
Tamar Diana Wilson, Ph.D., University of Missouri, St. Louis
Jon D. Wisman, Ph.D., American University
Judith Wittner, Ph.D., Loyola University
Michael Wolff, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts-Amherst
Martin Wolfson, Ph.D., University of Notre Dame
L. Randy Wray, Ph.D., Bard College and University of Missouri-Kansas City
Zhun Xu, Ph.D., Howard University
Ben Young, Ph.D., University of Missouri at Kansas City
June Zaccone, Ph.D., Hofstra University
David Zalewski, Ph.D., Providence College
Roland Zullo, Ph.D., University of Michigan

http://www.budget.senate.gov/democratic/public/index.cfm/2015/7/top-economists-are-backing-sen-bernie-sanders-on-establishing-a-15-an-hour-minimum-wage

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