Hillary's Mean Scream: "NO WE CAN'T"

[AtomicKitten]

[Uncle Joe]

1. Never ever, ever, ever

I thought Hillary was going to break out into a song for a minute there.

Thanks for the thread, AtomicKitten.

[CorporatistNation]

4. Yep CLINTON INCORPORATED Really On The Warpath Here! She HAs A Thing For Depriving Working Folks

Any way she can... And fools buy it! That is the depressing thing. Her rank and file supporters are more like Repubs that vote AGAINST THEIR OWN INTERESTS THAN THE stupid republicans are!

Doing the Business of "The Corporation" Clinton Incorporated... Brought to you by The HillBots!

[Broward]

53. Some of her supporters will quickly turn around and mock

Republican voters for doing the same.

[cui bono]

12. And dance! She almost twirled.

.

[reformist2]

63. I think it shows an awareness that her position sucks, but she doubles down on it anyway.

If she's going to stay with Romneycare, she probably would be better off not addressing it at all.

[Vattel]

2. As we saw in Iraq, she has amazing powers of prognostication.

[Cali_Democrat]

3. Pelosi already poured cold water on Bernie's latest "proposal"

and that was at the Democratic retreat in Baltimore. It's safe to say the Dems aren't for it.

That leaves the Republicans, but I don't think they've weighed in on it yet.

Bernie can get it done, if he can convince Republicans that we need single payer.

Good luck, Bernie.

[Luminous Animal]

6. Never ever. What an inspirational speech. I'm sure that the millions of Americans that

can't afford their co-pays and medication were inspired to vote for her.

[w4rma]

7. A problem with Hillary, is that she lacks foresight, judgement and a positive vision for the future.

One strong example of her lack of foresight, judgement and vision is her support of the Iraq invasion, that likely cost her the 2008 election.

And she's *still* running against "Hope".

[delrem]

10. Not long ago, polls showed 80% of Dems favored universal health care.

What changed?

[uponit7771]

15. We still do, we just don't favor UHC with plans that don't work and a congress that doesn't have

... to lift a finger to help get it done.

Pixy Dust Politics (tm) isn't going to get Sanders plan past this congress...

The world doesn't work like that

[cui bono]

19. Why won't it work? Don't tell me you believe what everyone knows is lies that the Clintons

are telling.

I'd be interested to see what you were saying about single-payer health care a long time ago, before your candidate decided no we can't.

.

[uponit7771]

22. HRC isn't saying no we can't just NOT the way Sanders piss poor plan is outlining it... for one

... and I still want single payer, just the correct way... not Sanders way which lets the Doctors, Hospitals and pharmaceutical companies continue to gouge the US tax payer.

Cutting 5 - 10% for a 500 a month bill by cutting out private HCI is nice but he knows that's 200 billion from a 1.7 trillion dollar problem that centers around folk being greedy every place they can.

and

the "it" in this case isn't single pay its Sanders Pixy Dust plan on getting his agenda past congress...that wont work... congress doesn't care cause they don't have to.

They can burn down a puppy ranch and still get voted back in to the seats because of gerrymandering

[cui bono]

26. If you're getting your information from Hillary or her campaign or her daughter you ought to know by

now that they are lying about Bernie's plan and they are lying about single-payer. Even the establishment MSM called them out on it.

Have you read Bernie's plan? You state one detail and think that makes it a "Pixy Dust" plan? By using that term I can see that you have no desire to actually discuss Bernie's policy. I suspect you think his supporters want unicorns too.

I don't have the time to waste going back and forth with someone who has no desire to actually discuss an issue so I'll just give you a link so you can actually read his plan and see what it entails.
https://berniesanders.com/issues/medicare-for-all/

Enjoy!

.

[uponit7771]

28. I happen to read Sanders plan and even if he cuts out 100% of all HCI that still doesn't

...get us to lower HCI cost which are affordable.

A 500 dollar a month payment for a family of 4 isn't affordable... neither is a 450 dollar a month payment.... that's now what the other countries that don't allow their doctors etc to guoge pay.

I can tell a weak position with a cut and run to boost, it's usual around here these days... facts matter...

[cui bono]

39. It's not per month, it's per YEAR. Where are you getting your information?

A family of four making $50,000 a year taking the standard deduction would only pay $466 this year.

https://berniesanders.com/issues/medicare-for-all/

Here, read this, I'm bolding the revenue raised for you since you made an incorrect claim earlier. There's many more hundreds of BILLIONS that you failed to mention:

A 6.2 percent income-based health care premium paid by employers.
Revenue raised: $630 billion per year.
A 2.2 percent income-based premium paid by households.
Revenue raised: $210 billion per year.This year, a family of four taking the standard deduction can have income up to $28,800 and not pay this tax under this plan.

A family of four making $50,000 a year taking the standard deduction would only pay $466 this year.


Progressive income tax rates.
Revenue raised: $110 billion a year.Under this plan the marginal income tax rate would be:

37 percent on income between $250,000 and $500,000.
43 percent on income between $500,000 and $2 million.
48 percent on income between $2 million and $10 million. (In 2013, only 113,000 households, the top 0.08 percent of taxpayers, had income between $2 million and $10 million.)
52 percent on income above $10 million. (In 2013, only 13,000 households, just 0.01 percent of taxpayers, had income exceeding $10 million.)



Taxing capital gains and dividends the same as income from work.
Revenue raised: $92 billion per year.Warren Buffett, the second wealthiest American in the country, has said that he pays a lower effective tax rate than his secretary. The reason is that he receives most of his income from capital gains and dividends, which are taxed at a much lower rate than income from work. This plan will end the special tax break for capital gains and dividends on household income above $250,000.



Limit tax deductions for rich.
Revenue raised: $15 billion per yearUnder Bernie’s plan, households making over $250,000 would no longer be able to save more than 28 cents in taxes from every dollar in tax deductions. This limit would replace more complicated and less effective limits on tax breaks for the rich including the AMT, the personal exemption phase-out and the limit on itemized deductions.



The Responsible Estate Tax.
Revenue raised: $21 billion per year.This provision would tax the estates of the wealthiest 0.3 percent (three-tenths of 1 percent) of Americans who inherit over $3.5 million at progressive rates and close loopholes in the estate tax.



Savings from health tax expenditures.
Revenue raised: $310 billion per year.Several tax breaks that subsidize health care (health-related “tax expenditures”) would become obsolete and disappear under a single-payer health care system, saving $310 billion per year.

Most importantly, health care provided by employers is compensation that is not subject to payroll taxes or income taxes under current law. This is a significant tax break that would effectively disappear under this plan because all Americans would receive health care through the new single-payer program instead of employer-based health care.

Again, I wouldn't go believing Hillary since it's been documented that she is lying about all of this. You should listen to Bernie and read his plan. Why do you support someone who is lying to the public about something so important? Is that what you look for in a leader?

.

[uponit7771]

40. Its per month... 2.2% PLUS 6.2% (the cost the employer will pass down via suppressed wages....

... or reduction of other benefits for the median salary) in added payroll taxes is about 400 - 450 a month.

The ADDED pay roll taxes don't get paid for by Martians

[cui bono]

42. A family of four making $50,000 a year taking the standard deduction would only pay $466 this year.

And as you saw if you were able to see through all that "Pixy Dust", there are HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS in revenue of which you didn't acknowledge the existence.

.

[uponit7771]

44. So the 2.2% and 6.2% number in Sanders plan gets paid for by who!? tia

[cui bono]

45. What about all that revenue that you still fail to acknowlege?

Here's your answer:

A 6.2 percent income-based health care premium paid by employers.
Revenue raised: $630 billion per year.
A 2.2 percent income-based premium paid by households.
Revenue raised: $210 billion per year.This year, a family of four taking the standard deduction can have income up to $28,800 and not pay this tax under this plan.

A family of four making $50,000 a year taking the standard deduction would only pay $466 this year.

So what's your answer as to why you'd rather support someone who is campaigning against single-payer by lying about it and lying about Bernie's plan?

Btw... she was campaigning against the ACA back in 2008. In top form yet again. How can you support someone like this?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1100807

.

[uponit7771]

47. That's not an answer to the question I asked, ... who pays the 2.2% and the 6.2% payroll taxes?!!??

[cui bono]

48. It's stated there in the plan. What about all those HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of revenue???

that you still won't acknowledge? You said he is only making up $200bn I think. That plan makes up for a hell of a lot more than that.

So, again, what is it that you are supporting in Clinton? What is it about her health plan that is so much better than Bernie's? What is it about her lying about single-payer - which you claim to still want - that makes you support and defend her and criticize Bernie so much?

.

[kristopher]

49. Are you telling me you seriously can't figure this out for yourself?

A 6.2 percent income-based health care premium paid by employers.
Revenue raised: $630 billion per year.

A 2.2 percent income-based premium paid by households.
Revenue raised: $210 billion per year.


This year, a family of four taking the standard deduction can have income up to $28,800 and not pay this tax under this plan.

A family of four making $50,000 a year taking the standard deduction would only pay $466 this year.

Do you see this part? It addresses the WHO in your question:

A 2.2 percent income-based premium paid by households.
A 6.2 percent income-based health care premium paid by employers.

Do you see this part?
It gives two SAMPLES to DEMONSTRATE that the HOUSEHOLD PREMIUM is PROGRESSIVE.

This year, a family of four taking the standard deduction can have income up to $28,800 and not pay this tax under this plan.
A family of four making $50,000 a year taking the standard deduction would only pay $466 this year.

Nowhere does it say or indicate the household amount of $466 for a family of 4 making $50000 is a monthly premium.

It gives equally clear and specific numbers elsewhere that the employer is, like the household, saving a substantial amount per employee.

No wonder you support Hillary.

[uponit7771]

50. Great, an honest ... useless answer... but honest. Those get paid for by the employee... the

.. employer is going to CONTINUE to pass down the cost to the employee as they have done in the last 10 years.

The numbers you proffered doesn't change my point that the amount paid monthly into premiums is STILL too expensive and I have read Sanders plan which does

NOT...


NOT ...

practically go after doctors and hospital GROUPS (big corporate hospitals) gouging tax payers.


I'm not going to vote just just slightly better on one issue

[kristopher]

52. WTF are you saying??

The employer doesn't "pass down the cost to employees" now and they will not be allowed to in the future. The employers DO get a tax write off for those costs, however.

You write:

The numbers you proffered doesn't change my point that the amount paid monthly into premiums is STILL too expensive ...

So you think $39/month for a family of 4 making $50K and taking the standard deduction is too much?
That is pure bullshit.

...and I have read Sanders plan which doesNOT practically go after doctors and hospital GROUPS (big corporate hospitals) gouging tax payers.

Single payer as Sanders proposes is the ONLY way to go after high provider costs in all areas. The Affordable Care Act has virtually no mechanism for overall health care cost control. But, single payer effectively creates a regulated "buyer's monopoly" that can ratchet down the price of health care and focus it more on providing actual health care (ex: how would you like real coverage for dental care?) instead of things like boner pills for 80 year old geezers. (I can say that since I'm a geezer myself.)

[Ferd Berfel]

72. BS. HIllary has taken WAY too much money from the Health Care Cabal

(among other Corporate, Wall Street interests) to EVER let this game change - if she can help it. We can't give her that opportunity.

She is one of them. She is all about Status Quo and business as usual. She is NOT about CHANGE.

The rest of us will not survive without CHANGE.

[delrem]

21. You do not.

You campaign against it, your candidate asserted that universal single payer won't ever, ever come to pass. So you lie.

[uponit7771]

23. Link & quote to this P.S. You're not going to give a correct link AND quote, you know that right!?

[delrem]

25. The fact that your candidate is campaigning against universal health care

is proven in vids posted on DU.
Watch the vids.

[uponit7771]

33. So.... I said in my last post you wouldn't give a link and quote and you didn't. I choose not to

... consider what you said about HRC to be true.

I didn't hear what you claimed she said in any video either.

[cui bono]

14. So you'd rather support someone who doesn't even want to try?

And you really think the GOP is going to try to work with Hillary? lol. Sure. Maybe to pass GOP policy, is that what you want?

Are you against single-payer health care? Medicare for all?

Are you against the diplomacy breathrough we've had with Iran and for sanctions?

Are you for the TPP?

Are you okay with the banks being way too big to fail? Bigger even than they were before 2007?

.

[uponit7771]

16. Nope, Hillary is outlining what SHE would do as president and overstepping the GOP gerrymandered...

... congress.

I'm not hearing this from Sanders

[cui bono]

18. The only thing she's outlining in that clip is how she WILL NOT EVER go against the health insurance

industry. Pessimism is a terrible trait for a leader.

I highly doubt you're listening to Sanders.

.

[uponit7771]

24. Hard to listen when I can read a piss poor single payer plan that doesn't go after industry price...

... gouging...

Doctors are going to charge less cause they're nice people!?

Also,

This is what I mean about the petulant left, they only think there's one way to skin a cat and if its not done their way then everyone else is a sell out.

The countries who have some of the best HCI have private insures still they just don't allow these private HCI's to price gouge ...

like Sanders is going to allow the doctors, hospital GROUPS and pharmaceutical companies to do.

[cui bono]

30. So, the candidate you back doesn't want to offend the industry and makes millions off them herself!

So you have no leg to stand on there.

Hillary is campaigning AGAINST single-payer, AGAINST universal health care. Why? Well probably because she's made MILLIONS speaking to the health insurance industry. It stands to reason she is against taking away any of their profits, especially when so much of them go to her. You think that's better? Sheesh. DU has jumped the shark.

.

[uponit7771]

35. Could care less if she offends the industry just lowers HCI cost to were they're affordable...

... right now we spend too much monthly on HCI cost and Sanders plans only puts a slight dent in them.

Again, even if 100% of the PRIVATE HCI cost were taken out of premium payments and not replaced at all we're talking about a 5 - 10% reducting in the already high monthly premiums.

Not worth it to go over that whole congressional ordeal again and this time there's no 59 days of a voting majority in congress.

HRC isn't campaigning against the ACA... right now that's what we have to work with, I'm not willing to let perfect be the enemy of good or adequate

[cui bono]

41. Your information is incorrect. Do not trust what you hear from Hillary and campaign, they're lying.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1100824

You are leaving out HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of dollars in revenue fro Bernie's plan. You are saying something is a monthly cost that is actually an annual cost.

HRC is campaigning against single-payer and lying when she says Bernie would take away the ACA and leave people with nothing. His plan does nothing of the sort. She knows that damn well. And she and Chelsea are lying when they say health care would be left to the states. Single payer is a national health care plan.

Why are you so supportive of someone who lies to the people like that just to get elected? And that liar doesn't even want to try to do what is best for the people. She'd rather rant about how it will NEVER happen. That is unbelievable to me.

And you may not care less if she offends the industry but it's pretty obvious she can and does.

.

[uponit7771]

51. Its close enough, I'm not picking fly crap from pepper on this ... Sanders plan only cuts HCI

... cost and doesn't get down to the root of the high cost of health care in America.

He adopt something close to MoM plan and I'll take a look

[cui bono]

77. You're simply misunderstanding, parroting or knowingly spreading false information.

I've copied and pasted the plan. You keep saying thigs that just aren't true based on that. You have to stop listening to Hillary and Co. because she is flat out lying about single-payer and Bernie. Don't believe that? Check out all the OPs in GD-P from a week ago when she send Chelsea out to do her dirty work.

- What you are saying is a monthly cost is an annual cost.

- It is clear who is paying for this as outlined in the plan. You don't get to just make shit up and claim it to be true.

- Your "Pixy Dust" (to use your phrase) accounting of Bernie's plan is just that. You refuse to acknowledge the HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of revenue gained from his plan. Just simply refuse to acknowledge what is laid out before you as part of his plan and then continue to make false claims that there is no substantial savings.

Stop repeating anything Hillary says about this because she is lying and if you repeat it you are also lying, whether due to ignorance or willingly.

.

[uponit7771]

92. Then outline his plan on ....MAKING... Doctors, Hospital corps and pharma cut cost because no one

... is believing the collective bargaining part.

I'll wait

- What you are saying is a monthly cost is an annual cost.

Who cares how its divided, its paid out of the payroll... 2.2% and 6.2% are paid from what!?!?! Who cares how its divided... red herring

- It is clear who is paying for this as outlined in the plan. You don't get to just make shit up and claim it to be true.

I guess its not clear seeing that when Bern fans are asked they can't give a straight answer on who pays the 2.2% and 6.2% from what earnings... Still haven't gotten an answer from you even though we can both read the plan... maybe we're reading two different things with different understanding no?

- Your "Pixy Dust" (to use your phrase) accounting of Bernie's plan is just that. You refuse to acknowledge the HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of revenue gained from his plan.

This is false, I've already said even if ALL the private HCI cost were taken out (which amounts to hundreds of billions of dollars) then we'd literally save 50 bucks a month seeing there's still 1.5 trilliion left after the 200 billion is subtracted from 1.7 trillion for the private HCI

Where's the other savings coming from sans "collective bargaining" ?!

I'll wait on this one too

[cui bono]

93. Who cares how a certain dollar amount is divided???

Anyone with common sense. You are saying $xxx is the monthly amount but it is the yearly amount. That's a 12x difference!!! The amount you are saying people have to pay every month is actually what they have to pay every year. You don't think that makes a difference???

I posted the savings. You refuse to acknowledge them. I posted the plan and bolded all the Revenue saved. If you continue to ignore that I can't help you. You are fixated on a number and refuse to see the other amounts and refuse to use simple math to add them up. But as noted above, simple math is not your forte.

You can keep waiting as long as you want because you are waiting for someone to agree with your misinformation.

I'm done talking to a wall who doesn't even understand that if you divide something by 12 or multiply it by 12 it actually makes a difference.

SMH

.

[uponit7771]

95. Yes, whether the 8.4% of 50,000 is paid out by the minute or by the week!! The 2.2% and the 6.2%

... 1. Come from the employee and 2. has to be paid in Sanders plan... no one gets around it.

I'm wondering where we're disconnecting here...

The 8.4% of the 50,000 INCREASE in payroll taxes HAVE to be paid...

8.4% of 50,000 = 4200,.... it can be split up through 12 months or weekly...its going to be paid

[cui bono]

96. omg... You said people have to pay something like $450-500/mo. But is is actually per YEAR.

What about that do you not understand? $450-500/year = $37.50-41.67/month. Surely you can see the difference in those dollar amounts?

That other poster who responded to you told you how this is paid for by showing you the plan and explaining things to you. You ignored that post:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1100892
I copied and pasted the plan that told you. YOU REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE FACTS LAID BEFORE YOU.

I hope you can finally admit that $40/month is a hell of a lot less than $450/month. Because if you can't admit that then your argument is reduced to pure lunacy.

Bye.

.

[uponit7771]

99. You and the other poster are BOTH ignoring the simple question of WHO pays the 8.4% payroll tax...

... per year on the median income of 50,000!?!?!?

Its the employee.... the employee pays it... its an increase to taxes in leu of private HCI payments.

Divide the number up how ever you like, its going to be paid by the EMPLOYEE... no matter what.

PERIOD... FULL STOP

Can we get passed this ONE ...ONE simple point!?

tia

[cui bono]

100. No, you're just being purposely obtuse or you really can't grasp the point.

We are not ignoring anything. You have ignored the other person's post that explains everything to you.

You are refusing to acknowledge the facts that have been put forth. Read the plan. Here it is again, with even more information copied and pasted than before. Bolded to help you find what you are concerned about.

Now you can stop with the claim that it's not paid for and that it's going to cost people as much as you say it is. Where are you getting your information? Hillary? You know she is lying about all of this. So you shouldn't listen to that. If you want to know about Bernie's plan you need to listen to him or read it below.

Now if you want to continue arguing, please make sure your 'concern' isn't answered below first. And make sure your claims are accurate and actually a representation of his plan. Because everything you are saying is just not true. But that's already been pointed out to you almost a dozen times now. At this point I have to think that you are just trying to bait me into a hide.

Major Savings for Families and Businesses

Bernie’s plan will cost over $6 trillion less than the current health care system over the next ten years.

The United States currently spends $3 trillion on health care each year—nearly $10,000 per person. Reforming our health care system, simplifying our payment structure and incentivizing new ways to make sure patients are actually getting better health care will generate massive savings. This plan has been estimated to save the American people and businesses over $6 trillion over the next decade.

The typical middle class family would save over $5,000 under this plan.

Last year, the average working family paid $4,955 in premiums and $1,318 in deductibles to private health insurance companies. Under this plan, a family of four earning $50,000 would pay just $466 per year to the single-payer program, amounting to a savings of over $5,800 for that family each year.

Businesses would save over $9,400 a year in health care costs for the average employee.

The average annual cost to the employer for a worker with a family who makes $50,000 a year would go from $12,591 to just $3,100.


How Much Will It Cost and How Do We Pay For It?
How Much Will It Cost?

This plan has been estimated to cost $1.38 trillion per year.

The Plan Would Be Fully Paid For By:

A 6.2 percent income-based health care premium paid by employers.
Revenue raised: $630 billion per year.
A 2.2 percent income-based premium paid by households.
Revenue raised: $210 billion per year. This year, a family of four taking the standard deduction can have income up to $28,800 and not pay this tax under this plan.

A family of four making $50,000 a year taking the standard deduction would only pay $466 this year.

Progressive income tax rates.
Revenue raised: $110 billion a year.Under this plan the marginal income tax rate would be:

37 percent on income between $250,000 and $500,000.
43 percent on income between $500,000 and $2 million.
48 percent on income between $2 million and $10 million. (In 2013, only 113,000 households, the top 0.08 percent of taxpayers, had income between $2 million and $10 million.)
52 percent on income above $10 million. (In 2013, only 13,000 households, just 0.01 percent of taxpayers, had income exceeding $10 million.)


Taxing capital gains and dividends the same as income from work.
Revenue raised: $92 billion per year.Warren Buffett, the second wealthiest American in the country, has said that he pays a lower effective tax rate than his secretary. The reason is that he receives most of his income from capital gains and dividends, which are taxed at a much lower rate than income from work. This plan will end the special tax break for capital gains and dividends on household income above $250,000.


Limit tax deductions for rich.
Revenue raised: $15 billion per year Under Bernie’s plan, households making over $250,000 would no longer be able to save more than 28 cents in taxes from every dollar in tax deductions. This limit would replace more complicated and less effective limits on tax breaks for the rich including the AMT, the personal exemption phase-out and the limit on itemized deductions.


The Responsible Estate Tax.
Revenue raised: $21 billion per year. This provision would tax the estates of the wealthiest 0.3 percent (three-tenths of 1 percent) of Americans who inherit over $3.5 million at progressive rates and close loopholes in the estate tax.


Savings from health tax expenditures.
Revenue raised: $310 billion per year. Several tax breaks that subsidize health care (health-related “tax expenditures”) would become obsolete and disappear under a single-payer health care system, saving $310 billion per year.

Most importantly, health care provided by employers is compensation that is not subject to payroll taxes or income taxes under current law. This is a significant tax break that would effectively disappear under this plan because all Americans would receive health care through the new single-payer program instead of employer-based health care.

.

[uponit7771]

101. ok, first I did not claim it wasn't paid for... my whole point is that it IS .. IS paid for... and

... it's paid for by the employee...

Do we agree on that !?!?!?


regards

[cui bono]

102. No, we cannot agree on that. Please read the plan. I copied the entire thing for you.

Everywhere where it is bolded and says "revenue raised" or something like that indicates that is another way the plan is being paid for.

Even the part you have mentioned, the 6.2% and 2.2% is mostly paid for by the employer, and is a huge savings for them.

Businesses would save over $9,400 a year in health care costs for the average employee.

The average annual cost to the employer for a worker with a family who makes $50,000 a year would go from $12,591 to just $3,100.

Go to the website. It's formatted in such a way that doesn't copy over well. It'll be easier for you to see that there are seven different sections for how it is being paid for.
https://berniesanders.com/issues/medicare-for-all/

.

[uponit7771]

103. Not into arguing just to argue, its in the plan... the employee pays 2.2% and 6.2% because we know

... damn well the employer isn't going to pay that much for the median sallary.

You took out the 2.2 and 6.2 from your reply...

I remember the plan enough...

[cui bono]

104. I added more info to my last post while you were responding.

No, I don't think I took that out. That is the part you keep citing as if it is the only way the plan is being paid for. Please see the additional info added to my prevoius post and please, PLEASE, just go to Bernie's site and read the plan for yourself. I swear, your answers are there if you want them.

The employers are going to have huge savings compared to what they pay now, so I'm not sure why you say "we know
... damn well the employer isn't going to pay that much for the median sallary. " Why would anyone think that when they are saving thousands of dollars?

.

[uponit7771]

105. The employee pays the 2.2% and the 6.2% out of the median income. The employer don't pay

... anything for median incomes.

Sanders takes the avg income which includes people who make 123423 dollars an hour for the 12,000 dollar yearly HCI spending.


No employer pays anything NEAR that much for the median income if any at all...

That's part of the pixy dust politics Sanders is playing...

People who have been in the middle of the ACA fight from the beginning can see there's something wrong

[cui bono]

106. Dude, seriously. You need to READ.

A 6.2 percent income-based health care premium paid by employers.
Revenue raised: $630 billion per year.

Stop with the fucking "Pixy Dust" crap when you can't be bothered to actually read the plan after it's been explained and copied and pasted and linked to for you.

That's as much as I can do for you. I can see now you are just playing games. You are the only one with "Pixy Dust" fantasies. You really need to stop listening to Hillary's lies if that's what you are parroting. I don't know what your problem is but you are just making yourself look completely stupid now. You've been proven wrong so many times and you just refuse to admit it or acknowledge what is actually in the plan.

And I have no idea why you are bringing up the ACA. What does that have to do with anything?

And another thing, tell me why you prefer Hillary fighting AGAINST universal health care? Why is that better than fighting FOR universal health care?

.

[uponit7771]

107. Ok, great... we agree that the employer SHOULD pay that... which they wont because... as you know

... they've been passing the cost down to the employee for the last 10 years in the form of higher deductible or suppressed wages.

There's nothing in Sanders plan to MAKE the employers keep wages growing either...

For the median income CURRENTLY employers pay little to nothing outside of admin cost, the burden is on the employee

[cui bono]

116. Employers are not the health insurance companies. They do not determine the deductible.

Why are employers going to be mad about SAVING THOUSANDS of dollars with this plan?

You are just being ridiculous now. As I said you are just not dealing with facts. You've decided Bernie's plan is something other than what it actually is and you are arguing based on your "Pixy Dust" fantasy version that exists only in your own mind.

So why do you support someone who is actively fighting AGAINST universal health care? Why do you refuse to answer that?

.

[uponit7771]

117. Good, we agree on that point too.. they're NOT the HCI's so I don't think they should be paying

... ANYTHING or even be involved!!!

That's another part of Sanders plan I don't agree with

The employers in this case pass the cost of HCI to employees by paying a small admin cost and having the employees pay higher deductibles and or premiums.

Either way, those cost have to be paid by the employee through payroll taxes... who cares what increments they're paid in ... its not just 466 a year and that's it... its 466 and whatever the payroll taxes will be

- So why do you support someone who is actively fighting AGAINST universal health care? Why do you refuse to answer that?

She's not, there's nothing in her platform THAT YOU CAN QUOTE HER SAYING where she says she's against UHC... that's a bold faced lie started by the Sanders camp...

NO ONE to date can quote her saying she's against SP or UHC... you can't right now because she never ever said that in words or in context (which most people who push this leave out of their retort)

[cui bono]

119. Agree on what? You said the employer can raise the deductible and I said they can't.

Sorry, but you're not being logical in your desire to smear Bernie's plan.

We all saw all the stories and video clips of Hillary and Chelsea lying about what single payer is so you can stop denying it.

Okay, I'm really done. This is a waste of time to speak to someone who is merely trying to make the facts bend to their point of view.

Especially when you can't even come up with a reason why you support another candidate's position instead of the one you are hell bent on smearing, even though it's the best plan being presented for the people and what is supposed to be the Democratic Party's stand on health care.

.

[passiveporcupine]

27. It's safe to say the Dems aren't for it.

Of course the establishment dems aren't.

But a lot of us DEMS are for it. Don't count your chickens before they hatch.

[mhatrw]

58. Weird how Democratic "leaders" always veto things Democratic voters want.

Who exactly do they represent again?

[oasis]

82. New York Times on Hillary: "very good, achievable proposals". nt

[gyroscope]

5. "I got my $5 million payout from the healthcare lobby this year

Last edited Sun Jan 31, 2016, 03:37 AM - Edit history (1)

screw everyone else!"

[Cheese Sandwich]

8. It's pathetic we still have millions uninsured. It's an emergency. Hillary doesn't care.

[Armstead]

65. It's been an emergency since the 1980's

[Cheese Sandwich]

9. The job of corporate politicians like Clinton is not to help us, but to help control us.

She's keeping the rabble in line. Shaking some sense into us. We can never have health care for all as a basic right. It's a fantasy. Sure we're the richest country and other countries do it far cheaper with better outcomes, but the program we have right now is fucking amazing and There Is No Alternative so get used to it.

[cui bono]

11. Wow! I hadn't actually heard her say it before. That is horrible!

Everything about her in that clip is just so awful.

No we can't is right. Ugh. How can anyone get behind that kind of rejection of what the people want and need?

.

[AtomicKitten]

73. You really have to hear it to grasp the full magnitude of her contempt for single-payer.

It just took 8 years and $13 million from the health industry to turn her to the dark side.

[cui bono]

78. I know!

It seriously makes me wonder, what kind of person can support someone like that? Who is so angry about something that would help the people who most need help in this country? And her constant lying and dirty politics. How can any Democrat who is not part of the corporate world truly believe she is the best the Dem Party can come up with?

Now that we know that Bernie can win the whole enchilada, why does anyone support her? I've been asking on here for people to give a reason they support her and there is never an answer. Never. Granted it's in discussions on here which have come to be a team sport sort of thing, but still, if someone asked me why I support Bernie I have tons of reasons and would be happy to tell anyone what they are.

Mindboggling.

.

[AtomicKitten]

81. It's creepy as hell, really.

I hate to repeat an epithet her camp throws at Bernie, but her supporters are cult-like in that they rattle off her talking points without really considering any of them. Reminds me of my catechism classes in Catholic grade school. And it's not about issues, it's about her. It's all about her. How put upon she is. How it's her turn. That's the only explanation I can come up with to explain how anyone could still support her at this point. She is completely owned and operated by the corporations that give her money.

It does boggle the mind.

[cui bono]

84. Just like Bushies and BOGGERs.

Hillarians. And I try to refrain from using those terms, but since I'm talking generalities it really has come to that. When they can't list policies they support her for, when they throw all principles out the window in order to support a bought and paid for corporate politician, there's no other explanation. They certainly are not Democrats in terms of being for the principles the Democratic Party was founded on.

.

[hifiguy]

87. This, a thousand times. Every word. nt

[vercetti2021]

13. And...

People vote for her. Sick.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

56. They were cheering her! Brainless wastes of oxygen.

[vercetti2021]

57. Sadly

Our fellow Dems on DU are also voting for this woman. Anytime I see a thread about her and see them actually get behind her despite all this talk, I cringe and my stomach gets sour.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

59. A simple case of idolization. But I'll never understand it.

[vercetti2021]

60. Me neither

But then again I'm a 26 year old voter, I'm just another millennial that will never go with the establishment.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

61. I'm 61 and the establishment is completely corrupt.

[hifiguy]

88. Yep. It's a FAN CLUB

not an electoral base, with the same sorts of motivations. No different than the Beliebers. It's a damn sad thing to see.

[AtomicKitten]

75. That's what $13 million buys.

[hifiguy]

85. Give her this -

when she's bought she STAYS bought - by Wall Street, the insurance industry, the MIC.......

[AzDar]

20. Didn't she attack Obama in '08 for this very thing?

[senz]

34. Yes, and here it is:

[Ed Suspicious]

43. Wow.

[cui bono]

46. She is such a...

lovely lady.

.

[EndElectoral]

29. God, I hope this message of acquiescence and defeatism is not that of the party for the future

[Bugenhagen]

31. At least she admits it's a better idea.

[AtomicKitten]

98. it's very telling ... she knows it's better

[SoapBox]

32. I'm over No We Can't! So I have a little no for you Hill...

NO...More...Clintons!

Ever!

[senz]

36. Wonder what the audience thought of it?

[loyalsister]

37. It's quite a spectacle

I have been completely confused by her since "dead broke."

She's trying to paint Bernie as inept, yet running a ridiculously uninspiring campaign after telling pointless lies and making absurd mistakes. DESPITE having spent more than 20 yrs in politics. Her campaign has been extremely clumsy and it makes her potential to beat republicans questionable.

[Betty Karlson]

38. Sounds like a campaign promise to her corporate sponsors... eom

[hifiguy]

89. That is EXACTLY what it is.

[Ichingcarpenter]

54. The "don't vote for what you want" campaign

Boy she went full Sith Lord on that scream.

Remember to vote for what you don't want

Eugene Debs, who used to say that he'd rather


"vote for something I want and not get it than vote for something I don't want and get it."

Get it? I do

[Broward]

55. She really is a piece of work.

Are we really going to make her the standard bearer of our Party? We have to do better than this.

[Buns_of_Fire]

62. What a message of hope! Brilliant! I know I'M inspired!

Some people see things as they are and say "why?"; I dream of things that never were and say "screw it, it's too hard"...

[Armstead]

64. and peopel say Bernie is too strident and angry

at least when Bernie gets strident and angry it's in the interests of the common people

[99Forever]

66. This IS Hillary Clinton.

And the DNC thinks I should support this shit?

[ljm2002]

67. I have not seen her this forceful...

...and enthused when presenting her own ideas. But wow, she has some real "fire in the belly" going on here as she shoots down any hope of achieving single payer health care. Wonder why that is?

Hmmm.

[hifiguy]

90. The O'Jays have the answer...

[bunnies]

68. What's up with the clenched fist thing?

It looks really odd.

[amborin]

69. K&R

[Vinca]

70. Hillary is the only politician I know who can get up in front of a crowd,

sound pleasant and caring and ready to do the job and is winning over the crowd, then . . . BOOM . . . she suddenly transforms into mean and nasty Hillary who is obviously pissed off she isn't president already. Strange.

[Armstead]

94. I've noticed that....it's eerie

[Nanjeanne]

71. Well we certainly can't as long as the Pres of the US says "We Can't"

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[MisterP]

74. nobody likes Big Nurse archetypes

[ViseGrip]

76. I heard this when it happened, I couldn't believe she was YELLING! She must be told it makes

her look strong. It's ridiculous.

[Nanjeanne]

79. Michael Moore tweet They once said it wasn't "realistic" to pass an Amendment giving women the vote

https://twitter.com/MMFlint/status/693905082031611908

They once said that it wasn't "realistic" to pass a Civil Rights Act AND a Voting Rights Act back to back. Both passed, 1964 & 1965.

https://twitter.com/MMFlint/status/693905334813872133

10 yrs ago we were told gay marriage would never be the law of the land. Good thing we didn't listen to those who told us 2 be "pragmatic."

https://twitter.com/MMFlint/status/693905802902384640

Yup.

[libdem4life]

80. Good Title...Good Meme. It's her turn...to do The Scream !!!

That was a piece of work, I must say. And the fist...you'd think she was at a Union Rally.

[JRLeft]

83. She was channeling John Boehner.

https://m.

[hifiguy]

86. Debbie Harry has some advice for her

Jebus Haploid Christ in combat boots.

[Arazi]

91. Awful. Just really awful. Those supporting her must not be actually listening to her

[CharlotteVale]

97. "The lady doth protest too much, methinks" (Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet)

[NanceGreggs]

108. I love the use of the FOX-News gimmick ...

... of isolating a single statement from the middle of speech, without bothering to include the lead-up to that statement and what follows it.

I guess some people are satisfied with that kind of editing - I'm not.

I also think it rather telling that in the 24 hours leading up to the Iowa caucus, Bernie supporters have busied themselves with anti-Hillary posts, rather than posting what's positive about their candidate.

I guess BS's "message" doesn't go very far without relying on "look at how bad my opponent is".

That's really sad.

[AtomicKitten]

109. Don't work yourself up, Nance. Context didn't suffer.

It took 8 years and $13 million for Hillary to declare that single-payer was never, ever going to happen. We disagree.

[NanceGreggs]

110. Uh, that's the problem.

When you think that "context didn't suffer" in an edited clip. That's exactly what FOX-News fans have been saying for years.

"We don't need to hear everything - we just need YOU to tell us the part you WANT us to hear."

Do you have a clip or a transcript of the entire speech? If not, how can you determine that "context didn't suffer" by leaving out things you don't even know about? Why are you blindly accepting the idea that whoever edited this clip was doing so "without the context suffering"?

[AtomicKitten]

112. We've all seen it. We're paying attention. Context did not suffer.

If you disagree, make your case. I'm going to bed but I'm sure someone else will be glad to discuss your argument if you want to post it. Big day tomorrow.

[NanceGreggs]

113. I thought it was pretty simple.

If you don't know what was edited out, how would you know whether it affected the context or not?

That's pretty much Common Sense 101, is it not?

[AtomicKitten]

114. I heard her entire talk unedited. So have people here.

Why are you having trouble grasping this? We all are paying attention. You don't change minds by just saying so. Prove it and someone will be by directly. Post your argument with links and stop the ankle biting. Common Courtesy 101. G'night.

[NanceGreggs]

115. Can you provide a link ...

... to the entire video, or a transcript thereof?

TIA!

[Lorien]

111. "About some BETTER IDEA..."

Yes Hillary, ALL of Bernie's ideas are better, and at least you admit it!

[GeorgeGist]

118. The better idea will never, ever come to pass.