2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumListen To Hillary ...FLIP FLOP In Record 3 DAYS On Universal Health Care Just Last Week!!!
HOW can anyone possibly put ANY Credibility or Trust... in ANYTHING... Hillary says?
bkkyosemite
(5,792 posts)her flip flopping and now using Bernie's words.
CorporatistNation
(2,546 posts)YELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL.... YELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL... AND YELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL SOME MORE!
ashling
(25,771 posts)InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Bernie & Elizabeth 2016!!!
ebayfool
(3,411 posts)ViseGrip
(3,133 posts)Fuddnik
(8,846 posts)And he had poor eyesight, so he had to get real close.
CorporatistNation
(2,546 posts)She cannot help herself... It is clinically pathological.
Bread and Circus
(9,454 posts)InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Bernie & Elizabeth 2016!!!
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)WillyT
(72,631 posts)NowSam
(1,252 posts)ViseGrip
(3,133 posts)nc4bo
(17,651 posts)AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Bernie & Elizabeth 2016!!!
ViseGrip
(3,133 posts)arcane1
(38,613 posts)One is a truly progressive value, and one is the complete opposite.
thesquanderer
(11,986 posts)...where most people are covered by private insurers. Not the "better" single payer or "better" Bernie plan (depending on which defense you read) that she discussed in the first clip.
I'm a Bernie supporter, and I don't see this as a flip-flop. It is consistent with her saying that she wants to build on Obamacare, and does not mean she wants single payer.
Duplicitous, misleading, okay, but not a flip-flop.
Autumn
(45,054 posts)thesquanderer
(11,986 posts)Uncle Joe
(58,349 posts)arcane1
(38,613 posts)Fuddnik
(8,846 posts)Good-bye single-payer and public option.
Autumn
(45,054 posts)That hit me like a bolt of lightning. Never heard that again and yet that is the ACA, "Insurance Finance Reform".
CorporatistNation
(2,546 posts)Not expanding the realm of private insurers. I work with private insurers EVERY day and I can tell you with a great deal of authority on the subject... That their goal is to ensure that we all die sometime shortly after retirement... Hillary is in DEEP with the insurance industry so you can depend on her to protect the current paradigm protecting and strengthening the market for BIG INSURANCE! It is all about financing health care and the most cost effective means of accomplishing that goal is to open Medicare to people of ALL ages. I will be putting up my plan here soon which i proposed as a candidate for the house.
ViseGrip
(3,133 posts)cross thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251112465
CorporatistNation
(2,546 posts)Secretary Clinton: "Wherever I need to be on ANY given day."
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)I favor universal coverage and a public option. I do not support single payer at this time.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)lots of people opposed to one choice. For that reason, and fact there is no chance for single payer in the foreseeable future, I think adding a public option and increased subsidies will help more people faster than standing firm for single payer.
D Gary Grady
(133 posts)I personally prefer Bernie, and I agree that Hillary is no paragon of truth-telling, but there's simply no flip-flop at all in what Clinton says in those two clips.
You're right, Hoyt. Rational or not, vast numbers of Americans distrust government and the idea of having no choice. This makes it easy for Republicans to make them afraid of single payer. Fortunately, there are a number of examples of successful universal healthcare systems that don't depend on single-payer -- Germany, Japan, Switzerland, and the Netherlands for a start.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)if there's only ONE "CHOICE" Then there's no alternate "choice" other than to just suffer or let yourself die. And IF said "one choice" saw to it that you got treatment - as good as the treatment industry can offer - cost you less than you could ever HOPE to pay under the ACA - with no life-threatening hospital bill in the aftermath - there would be folks who'd bitch about that???
Certainly, health insurance companies would NOT be kept from offering alternatives, but just how many people would opt to pay (what would by necessity HAVE TO BE outrageous premiums!) for "better" (whatever the hell that might be - likely modern-day snake oil dispensers) care?
Geez - call it Universal Coverage, call it Single Payer, call it Medicare for all - call it whatever you want - EVERYBODY gets treated when they walk into a medical care facility and the only "qualification" is that you're ailing. What "choice" would you rather opt for???
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)But generally, I would prefer options, including a public option. There is no reason that the "medicare for all" plan couldn't be the public option, and if it's better, more people would use it, right? But we live in the USA, where idiots will oppose contraceptive coverage, abortion services under ANY circumstances, and possibly other onerous conditions in any public plan.
Just take a look at the UK NHS and how it has unraveled as the Tories have gutted it. There have even been suggestions that treatment for conditions like diabetes be withheld unless patients get bariatric surgery.
No thanks.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)You said it yourself, they'll fight whatever we do just because.
If there can be no peace then marching only half way to the enemy capital will not suffice.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)A thousand excuses for failure are sure to succeed.
ViseGrip
(3,133 posts)Just like Bernie says!
CorporatistNation
(2,546 posts)pa28
(6,145 posts)Pew, pew, pew.
More like a pile driver. Only faster.
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)More losses nationwide coming in November. The party has no principles
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)I support a public option. And if it is better, the private plans should die on the vine, right?
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)Medicare for all is better still, and she doesn't want that. She wants to "expand Obamacare", meaning make everyone pay the death merchants. No thanks. It's already jacked my premiums 50%, and my copays and deductibles 1700%. One more "expansion" and I won't be able to afford to work.
You live in some fantasy world where Clinton is a populist instead of a corporatist.
LonePirate
(13,417 posts)There is just no pleasing some people I guess.
Fuddnik
(8,846 posts)Don't like the weather? Hang around a couple of days and you'll get what you like.
Don't like her stance on issues or policies? Hang around a couple of hours and you'll get what you like.
She's reminding me more and more of Marco Rubio.
AzDar
(14,023 posts)DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)I don't understand how anyone who knows enough about her would support her. I have this thing about people looking into my eyes and lying to me. I kind of detest it, and I don't forget it, and I'll "never, ever" support anyone who does it.
bbgrunt
(5,281 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Fuddnik
(8,846 posts)ViseGrip
(3,133 posts)Feeling the Bern
(3,839 posts)First, they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win!
We are getting to step four now!
SoLeftIAmRight
(4,883 posts)Where are the Hillary supporters???
Nyan
(1,192 posts)They got other things to worry about. Like coronation.
lastone
(588 posts)Under their bubbles!
Lol - I made myself laugh!
ViseGrip
(3,133 posts)business!
wouldsman
(94 posts)Ok, I don't mean for this to be any more rude or disruptive than those who have previously called her a chameleon or liar, but seriously I am starting to wonder if she is showing signs of early onset Alzheimer's or dementia. She moves so quickly from one "truth" to another as if she has forgotten what she just said in the very recent past.
Her most recent week of flip flopping is beyond anything I have ever witnessed out of any politician in my life. From her healthcare positions to whether she is a proud progressive or a moderate to whether she wants more debates or not. Where is she at on anything anymore? Does she even know?
hedda_foil
(16,372 posts)SoapBox
(18,791 posts)No more Clintons.
PoliticalMalcontent
(449 posts)There was a poll here months back that asked if every person should vote or only those who were educated. If people educated themselves I don't see how Hillary would be a viable candidate. I can't even count how many times she has taken both sides of an issue, but it undercuts her credibility.
She's not a very good candidate and the DNC tried as hard as they could to clear a path for her because "It's her turn" or something. Absolutely ridiculous.
I'm glad Bernie Sanders is giving people a choice. I just hope they educate themselves to all of their options.
lastone
(588 posts)Bernie is a career public servant.
Hillary is a career politician.
... and that difference is most of what your need to know ...
Bernie Sanders For President!
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Bernie & Elizabeth 2016!!!
dsc
(52,155 posts)France, Belgium, Denmark, The Netherlands, Finland, Sweden, and a whole host of countries have universal coverage without it being single payer. The fact the reporter doesn't know that doesn't make her a flip flopper it makes him an idiot.
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)back 8 years ago universal and single-payer were pushed as a single thing.
This confusion still exists. In a campaign season where single payer is one candidates desire, it's a confusion that I expect is more likely to be exploited to reduce seeming between candidate differences than it is something to be explained.
I'd like to be wrong about that, we'll see.
dsc
(52,155 posts)he is paid to know the difference. It isn't a sin for a non math teacher to not know some mathematical principle but it a sin for me not to know that principle.
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)Many things become conflated across discussions...usually unintentionally
I think universal healthcare and single payer lived together as a conflation long enough to create some lasting confusion.
Communication requires shared meanings behind terms...when things being discussed are muddled by common conflations what's to be expected but confusion?
It seems intent often finds itself begging for a word that matches a need, grabs the first one encountered from previous experience and a person ends up meaning what it said, but not saying what the words used actually mean.
At the same time, a person knowing the distinction and choosing it to muddle the difference is a word weasel.
Is weasling a sin? Does that make a weasling weasle an idiot?
Probably not. The weasling weasle seems more of a clever conflator.
CBGLuthier
(12,723 posts)She used to not give two shits for gay rights but once she found out most of the country does, she evolved.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Universal health care does not need to be single payer (most universal health care systems aren't), and for that matter single payer wouldn't theoretically need to be universal.
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)its so transparent they are not even trying anymore to pretend this hillary's platform
people can see this, and will vote accordingly
Ino
(3,366 posts)Hillary quickly evolves to the opposite position. Her followers give themselves whiplash pivoting to defend her new platform whilst claiming it's no different from the old one.
ViseGrip
(3,133 posts)jillan
(39,451 posts)CharlotteVale
(2,717 posts)7wo7rees
(5,128 posts)What is she saying? We can or we can't?