To all the folks who keep claiming that not supporting HRC is a Republican vote

[Kelvin Mace]

This little golden oldie from 2008.

I love her final prediction:

[Squinch]

1. What I remember about 2008 is Hillary at one of the last debates saying

"Whatever happens, I'll be fine. What's important now is that you vote for the Democrat, whoever it is."

[Kelvin Mace]

5. It will be interesting to see if she repeats that

[Squinch]

7. Why would you think she wouldn't? She has proven that is what she believes. Or is

an actual track record of having done it somehow not enough?

[Kelvin Mace]

15. Her actual track record on many issues is quite disturbing

and the reasons have been gone over many times on this board. If you haven't seen that by now, nothing I will say will convince you otherwise, so I will not try.

[Squinch]

20. Her actual track record as someone who graciously accepted defeat in 08, and then worked hard

to get Obama elected, and then gave him her unqualified support as his Secretary of State, makes you think she can't be trusted on this?

Yes, best you should not try to convince me otherwise. I will believe the fact of what she actually did. You believe whatever it is that you have convinced yourself to fear.

[Kelvin Mace]

21. You and I must have watched different campaigns

In the end she was "gracious", as she had no choice.

I don't "fear" anyone. You may believe as you wish.

[Squinch]

23. Yes. That is how the primaries work. The two opponents keep campaigning till one is the clear

winner and the loser "has no choice." And once there was a clear winner, she was very gracious. And she worked hard to get Obama elected, and then gave him her unqualified support as his Secretary of State.

If Bernie is not way out in front during this will you feel he is ungracious if he hangs in until it is clear he can't win?

[AtomicKitten]

55. She refused to concede and threatened a fight in Denver.

And HALF of her supporters said they refused to vote for Obama (see links below). I don't know what primary you were watching but "gracious" in no way resembles what transpired.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/24953561/ns/politics-decision_08/t/clinton-refuses-concede-nomination/

http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2008/03/27/clinton-threatens-convention-floor-fight/

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/05/06/exit-polls-half-of-clintons-supporters-wont-back-obama/

[Squinch]

56. So if Bernie is not way out in front, and it is a close race where he trails by a little, I will

expect to see all of you encouraging him to step out of the race at some point before it is clear that he can't win.

He shouldn't do everything in his power to win, because if he does, you all will think him ungracious.

[AtomicKitten]

57. It was over. Every state had voted & she refused to concede.

This isn't the Special Olympics nor is it kindergarten. Not everybody gets a prize.

[Squinch]

58. Then she campaigned hard for him, and supported him fully as his SoS.

[farleftlib]

24. Not conceding to Obama for four days

is being gracious in defeat? She ran a dirty campaign and then refused to concede. Those were her true colors. If she managed to appear "gracious" after that it was too late. We all saw what was behind the mask.

[Squinch]

32. Then she campaigned hard for him in the general, and supported him faithfully as his Secretary of

State.

I guess that was what was behind the mask.

[kath]

53. You must not have seen this:

About 7 minutes in, after dealing with all her disgusting allusions and direct references to assassination, Keith discusses earlier episodes of disgusting nastiness and racism.

[artislife]

54. I don't remember it being too gracious.

But she finally let go and came to terms with it...

[Arkansas Granny]

11. And she campaigned for Obama after he got the nomination, IIRC.

[Squinch]

19. Yes. She worked hard to get him elected. And then she worked hard as his SoS.

But, ya know, she's the devil and blah, blah, blah.

Meanwhile Bernie's campaign was just caught, once again, using people's images in ways that imply or state that they have endorsed Bernie, when they emphatically have not.

[merrily]

30. Was that for the benefit of the Party or for the benefit of Hillary?

[Squinch]

34. Well, you tell me. Did she skulk away and not put her money where her mouth was, or did she

campaign for him and serve him in his cabinet?

[merrily]

35. That may all have been part of the same deal.

She wanted to run for President again. Skulking away would not have been the best way to serve that purpose.

BTW, most people do not consider being Secretary of State a sacrifice. And it did mesh well with the Foundation.

[Squinch]

37. I get it that there was no course of action she could have taken that you would not have interpreted

as Hillary being horrible and terrible.

But most people can see that she said the right thing about voting for the Democrat, and then she followed through on that with enormous energy and effectiveness.

[INdemo]

41. And then she began prparing for 2012 and she would have primaried Obama

if she had not been appointed SOS

[Squinch]

49. You mean like Sanders wanted to? Sanders was the one who DID call for a primary. Not Hillary.

[olddots]

2. oy I feel so sorry for her family

I even feel bad for her ansestors .

[seaglass]

3. Not supporting her if she wins the nomination is enabling Republicans. Too bad so many Bernie

supporters on DU don't have a problem with that.

[Kelvin Mace]

6. Kind of missed the point,

she said she was going to vote for McCain. Could you point me to a DU member who is planning on voting for the GOP nominee?

[DanTex]

8. I agree. What that woman was proposing was worse than the people saying they will

sit out the GE if Bernie doesn't win. Both are ludicrous and irresponsible, and are aiding the GOP, but that youtube woman was worse.

BTW, did she post on DU?

[Kelvin Mace]

9. Not that I am aware of,

but some of her ilk shared that view here, or were sympathetic to it.

Refusing to vote for a candidate with deplorable views is NOT the same as supporting the GOP. Sorry, not accepting that.

[DanTex]

12. I supported Obama in 2008, and I do remember that there were Hillary hold-outs that

were threatening to sit out the GE and help throw the election to McCain. And, yes, sitting out is very much helping the GOP. You can't be neutral on a moving train, as Howard Zinn says. It's not as bad as voting for the GOP, it's half as bad: voting GOP is a net swing of 2 votes, and sitting out is a net swing of 1.

Back in 2008, I viewed those people with the same amount of contempt as people this time around who won't vote for the Democratic candidate if the primary doesn't go their way.

[Kelvin Mace]

16. I am not neutral

and did not sit out the election and will not now. But I will not vote for HRC.

Again, the Democratic Party has made it quite clear that Wall Street and military contractors are in charge of the party. Having done so, alea jacta est, or if you prefer "The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."

[DanTex]

17. Voting third party is equivalent to sitting out.

It's 1 net vote for the GOP, half as bad as simply voting GOP. There are two possible outcomes: Dem or GOP. It's a zero sum game.

[Kelvin Mace]

26. That is "pragmatist" math

If this is truly a "zero sum game", we have already lost.

[merrily]

31. What the woman in the video said was foreshadowed by things said by Hillary, Bill and Ferraro.

[DanTex]

33. No it wasn't. And if there were any doubt about it, the way Hillary supported Obama

in the GE campaign puts those doubts to rest.

It remains to be seen whether Bernie will be as graceful, and whether his supporters will be as level-headed as Hillary's were, when they came out to vote for Obama.

[merrily]

36. Everything she said had been said by them, everything. And no,

what Hillary did in the general put nothing to rest. See Reply 35. It sure did not undo all the "racially tinged" or PUMA prompting dog whistles of the primary campaign.

Hillary:

Senator McCain and I are ready for that 3 am phone call. Senator Obama is not

My constitutents are hard working white people.

Bill to T. Kennedy

If he weren't black, you'd be supporting Hillary. A couple of years ago, he would have been getting us coffee.

Ferraro:

The only reason he got this far is a black.

If you think the campaign that ran that way just unselfishly sung cumbayah the second it was over, good for you.

[DanTex]

38. Really, Hillary said "I'm voting for John McCain"? Link?

[merrily]

48. You want a link for something I never posted while you ignore everything I did post?

That's a bullshit posting game. Not interested.

Play it with yourself.

[seaglass]

10. I'm not interested in some non-DU crazy lady. It makes ZERO difference to me if a DUer writes

Bernie's name in (if he's not the nominee), votes for Jill Stein or doesn't vote for President they are just as Republican enabling as someone who directly votes for a Republican.

[Kelvin Mace]

14. That's how you see it

I see it as the Democratic party has chosen a very compromised center-right candidate, bought and paid for by Wall Street and the war industry. That is unacceptable and I will not vote for such a person.

The party has made its bed and can lie in it.

[seaglass]

18. I see it as people who profess to care about others not really caring so much if they don't get

their way.

[Kelvin Mace]

22. And I see it as being presented with a person

I cannot in good conscience vote for.

The lesser of two evils is still evil. To vote for evil is to endorse evil, and it never ends well for the "pragmatists".

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

25. At the height of the health care debacle, it was Sanders who was openly calling for President

Obama to be primaries and threatened that he'd be that candidate.

I can't stand HRC, but Sanders has had his share of being ridiculous when it came to the black guy in the White House.

[Kelvin Mace]

27. He threatened a primary because

Obama had moved right, not because he was black.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

29. BOTH in my view. Obama got ACA passed because he couldn't even get a public option through

a Democratic-controlled House and Senate.

And how far did Bernie and Kucinich's single payer plan go? They went nowhere.

So when we tried to get a public option, the conservative (and even some moderate) Democrats BLOCKED it!

Instead of understanding this, Bernie goes after the president.

Despite all his accomplishments and saving this country from total bankruptcy, Sanders called for the President's ouster.

No, not directly racism, but the way the goal posts have been raised for this president, many black people (including myself) believe that race (even on a psychological level) has much to do with how this president has been (mis)treated.

Failing to even give this president the benefit of the doubt is also hurting Sanders.

Now he wants to take credit for Obamacare? Really? Fuck him for his lies!

[Kelvin Mace]

40. The ACA was just one problem

That could have been overlooked. But there was the failure to prosecute the bankers, failure to investigate or prosecute the war criminals, the refusal to prosecute illegal wiretaps, and the continuation of the war.

People are walking free today who tortured and murdered Iraqis.

No, I don't understand and I refuse to forgive.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

43. Sanders fanatical fans are turning a lot of people off. I hope he loses.

[Kelvin Mace]

51. Oh, he probably will

given the establishment Dems are against him.

Be careful what you wish for.

[merrily]

46. But, you're okay with a primary campaign that actually did occur that was full of

"racially tinged" dog whistles?

And primary challenges are racist now? Come on.

[merrily]

39. Health care debacle was at its height in 2012? ACA was signed March 2010.

And I do not recall Sanders saying he'd run.

He didn't even want to run this time. He was waiting to see if Warren would.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

42. Yes, the Sanders cited Obamacare as ONE of the motivating factors for calling for a primary.

Surely you remember this.

Not getting single payer was a major reason.

Pay attention next time.

[merrily]

45. Wow. Your reply 42 is very different from your Reply 25.

Don't change the subject and then pretend I'm not paying attention. Thanks.



You claimed 2012 primary season was the height of the health care "debacle." AFAIK, that's not true.
You said Sanders suggested himself as a candidate. I don't recall that, though I do recall Democrats wanting to draft him.

If you want to deal with the comments you originally made and to which I originally responded and then move on to something else, fine. If you don't fine, too. We'll both move on to something else. But, I am not going to chase a moving target pointlessly and while you claim I missed something.

[in_cog_ni_to]

4. Oh yeah and now it's inadequate old white man with funny hair, rumpled clothes, Jewish! *wink*wink*,

Red Hammer and Sickle Socialist! with a Brooklyn accent....among a LOT of other nasty and hateful memes.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. She obviously never learned her lesson when she lost against Obama in 2008....she decided to double down!

PEACE
LOVE
BERNIE

[merrily]

44. Dog whistles suck, no matter what their subject matter.

http://jackpineradicals.org/entry.php?209-Democratic-Primary-2016-Will-religious-bigotry-work-this-time

[in_cog_ni_to]

50. That was a great piece, merrily. HRH, obviously, didn't learn anything from 2008!

What's that definition of doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome? Oh ya! INSANITY.

Just let her continue the dog whistles. She'll come to regret it. 2008 repeat!

PEACE
LOVE
BERNIE

[merrily]

52. Thank you, very kindly.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

13. Simple arithmatic disproves that.

0 + 0 = 0

0 - 0 = 0

[Vote2016]

28. She remonds me of every third Clinton supporter posting in this forum today!

[merrily]

47. No, they remind you of her and I don't see that as a coincidence.